Because it's a 4 turn commitment that cooks off 1 or 2 full tax points per use, not to mention costing between 4 additional tax trends or 8 additional larder trends worth of militia/retinue.
I interpreted the cost as a one time expendature with a partial refund, not as something we need to spend every turn during the training. It looked to me like we would spend 1-2 full tax points and 2 retinue trends now, and nothing more. Then 4 turns later we get one of the retinue trends refunded. QM, can we get a confirmation?
(Btw, QM, this is a fantastic fun ride so far. Thanks for all your hard work!)
I interpreted the cost as a one time expendature with a partial refund, not as something we need to spend every turn during the training. It looked to me like we would spend 1-2 full tax points and 2 retinue trends now, and nothing more. Then 4 turns later we get one of the retinue trends refunded. QM, can we get a confirmation?
(Btw, QM, this is a fantastic fun ride so far. Thanks for all your hard work!)
I interpreted the cost as a one time expendature with a partial refund, not as something we need to spend every turn during the training. It looked to me like we would spend 1-2 full tax points and 2 retinue trends now, and nothing more. Then 4 turns later we get one of the retinue trends refunded. QM, can we get a confirmation?
(Btw, QM, this is a fantastic fun ride so far. Thanks for all your hard work!)
It ultimately costs a ton of initial start-up, though. 2 full tax means going straight from 2 to 0. That's enough to completely disable growing retinue for a turn, or alternatively totally block a fort raise action. Taking the Order action is basically an exclusive act for a turn, it denies any sort of alternate choice and the following turn we'll not have much (if any) replenishment of retinue/militia to patrol the following turn.
All I'm saying is that doing this requires going in carefully and with some amount of saved resources to prep the turn without completely draining us for the following one.
It ultimately costs a ton of initial start-up, though. 2 full tax means going straight from 2 to 0. That's enough to completely disable growing retinue for a turn, or alternatively totally block a fort raise action. Taking the Order action is basically an exclusive act for a turn, it denies any sort of alternate choice and the following turn we'll not have much (if any) replenishment of retinue/militia to patrol the following turn.
All I'm saying is that doing this requires going in carefully and with some amount of saved resources to prep the turn without completely draining us for the following one.
Except those numbers are wrong-it only costs 2 if we spring for magic, which I don't think we want to do, seeing as magic isn't more valuable than lancers or defenders. We can still raise retinue and we can raise militia independently that turn if we spring for deflancers, but it won't be as much as the aggressiveness we're displaying right now. It very much isn't exclusive - it's just that we keep trying to do almost everything at once so of course our finances barely support us.
Either way, I'm a little unsure why we're still arguing about how seriously to take this - I think as a thread we do, but maybe it's time to talk details, in which case I want to hear your objections to specializations in both lancer and defense foci.
Except those numbers are wrong-it only costs 2 if we spring for magic, which I don't think we want to do, seeing as magic isn't more valuable than lancers or defenders. We can still raise retinue and we can raise militia independently that turn if we spring for deflancers, but it won't be as much as the aggressiveness we're displaying right now. It very much isn't exclusive - it's just that we keep trying to do almost everything at once so of course our finances barely support us.
I go for magic because magic negates most battle penalties in general. They have flying stuff? Battle penalty canceled, even if we don't have the archers to directly counter them. They have mages? Countered. They have lance equivalents? Battle penalty canceled. They have huge numbers? Battle penalty canceled.
Defenders/mages is a well-rounded middle finger in the face of peculiar or powerful forces that we can't afford to raise a full attack against, where lancers are just kind of effective in the open plains, becoming mostly useless when forced to clear forts, enter hilly marches or forests, or worse, trying to push up a mountain or choke-point.
And there's a lot of all of those things around the map, and I strongly suspect that Ice Cavern isn't the only overrun fort we'll have to clear in the near future.
Before we go further in this discussion about Hyrulian military tactics
@wootius Is it possible to siege minion encampments? If so, do the enemies typically engage the surrounding forces?
As a general idea for how powerful our magic corps are, what can Zelda do right now and does she think the majority of a magic corps would be more or less skilled than her?
Before we go further in this discussion about Hyrulian military tactics
@wootius Is it possible to siege minion encampments? If so, do the enemies typically engage the surrounding forces?
As a general idea for how powerful our magic corps are, what can Zelda do right now and does she think the majority of a magic corps would be more or less skilled than her?
If the minions take or build a fort, you may siege it. If you attack and fail to take one, and have enough men left over, you may siege it with your failed attack force. Minions under that same force will try to relieve them, or another splinter faction if they're grouped up.
A Magic Knightly Order will have a leader as skilled as Zelda currently (and will follow her to Veteran), but it's members will mostly cap out at Adept. Their training focuses on magic stamina, repelling enemy magic, self buffing(armor strength, physical conditioning, weapon buffs), mitigating environmental effects, and having a utility belt of magic focuses.
Environmental effects mean things like arrows, so you can close with the enemy, or elemental effects mostly. Say you're for some reason fighting minion forces with a heavy fire bent on Death Mountain when the mountain explodes and spews lava everywhere. Magic means your army won't fully cook alive if they beat a fast enough retreat. Just to medium.
In short: Magic makes them do their other trait better and means other Magic users don't have the advantage on you.
Also note I've started building Zelda's character page.
I go for magic because magic negates most battle penalties in general. They have flying stuff? Battle penalty canceled, even if we don't have the archers to directly counter them. They have mages? Countered. They have lance equivalents? Battle penalty canceled. They have huge numbers? Battle penalty canceled.
Defenders/mages is a well-rounded middle finger in the face of peculiar or powerful forces that we can't afford to raise a full attack against, where lancers are just kind of effective in the open plains, becoming mostly useless when forced to clear forts, enter hilly marches or forests, or worse, trying to push up a mountain or choke-point.
And there's a lot of all of those things around the map, and I strongly suspect that Ice Cavern isn't the only overrun fort we'll have to clear in the near future.
If the minions take or build a fort, you may siege it. If you attack and fail to take one, and have enough men left over, you may siege it with your failed attack force. Minions under that same force will try to relieve them, or another splinter faction if they're grouped up.
A Magic Knightly Order will have a leader as skilled as Zelda currently (and will follow her to Veteran), but it's members will mostly cap out at Adept. Their training focuses on magic stamina, repelling enemy magic, self buffing(armor strength, physical conditioning, weapon buffs), mitigating environmental effects, and having a utility belt of magic focuses.
Environmental effects mean things like arrows, so you can close with the enemy, or elemental effects mostly. Say you're for some reason fighting minion forces with a heavy fire bent on Death Mountain when the mountain explodes and spews lava everywhere. Magic means your army won't fully cook alive if they beat a fast enough retreat. Just to medium.
In short: Magic makes them do their other trait better and means other Magic users don't have the advantage on you.
Also note I've started building Zelda's character page.
You are able to melt bronze with focus, stop an arrow in flight, and resist the efforts of mages well your senior. When you focus your magic inward your agility increases, even the silk in your armor hardens like iron, and your sword cuts when it should not.
(note: inner mad physicist is cackling with the undefined nature of allowable energy by magic, but would probably stop being a fun quest soon.)
So if our mage division is all going to be one level below ours,
they'll probably only be able to stop half a hail of arrows
will downgrade losses in bad environment from losing the entire army to just losing about half
The defense focus that our thread has a consensus on doesn't synergize well with magic focus, guaranteeing a slow battle of attrition rather than a decisive victory in a situation where we are already fighting a battle of attrition
They won't be able to do massed fire with skill, seeing as Zelda has a hard time casting fire (basing off melted bronze with focus)
Hardened armor does jackall against mace (which is actually probably more common than a sword. TIL)
Admittedly agility is a big deal in close combat - it's one of the more important aspects, along with sword cutting supposedly uncuttable items (can you do the same with, say, a mace?)
These aren't great, but these are the assumptions I'm working with. Under this model, I prefer lancers over mages, because fighting in bad terrain is something you shouldn't be doing, and while it is true that half the map is treacherous terrain, the other half is not. With lancers we gain huge advantages in mobility, maybe even being able to strike multiple places in a single turn, and the ability to destroy armies in pitched battles - which mostly happen between besieging forces and relief forces! There is also enough easy terrain (in both senses of the phrase) to capture first, and given our perspective more land is taxes is land. Furthermore, as you've described, magic has a huge start up cost. Taking the approach of a magic focuses is the exclusive action - not taking magic means that other options are available.
Thoughts?
E: Forgot to mention that because Link overslept his gorram alarm for 32 years, Zelda is a player in army battles and can actually provide mage support to most of our forces, and do it for the duration of the battle thanks to Extra Conditioning being skilled
While impressive, I'm not sure that a division of those has quite the linebreaking effect that results in a majority of the kills on a side - that's what lancers are supposed to do, get the opponents to panic, rout, and then get slaughtered in the stampede. with magic knights, both lines are likely to remain, with the opposing army slowly being scythed down before the strength of the defense wielders , but any ground commander can see that and retreat. The magic knights practically guarantee a slow waiting motion until, you guessed it, they press the offensive. As opposed to the lancers, who would have just broken the enemy lines and then slaughtered the routing forces. One ends the fight in a single turn, while the other takes multiple turns and ties up our massive investment in a goose chase.
While impressive, I'm not sure that a division of those has quite the linebreaking effect that results in a majority of the kills on a side - that's what lancers are supposed to do, get the opponents to panic, rout, and then get slaughtered in the stampede. with magic knights, both lines are likely to remain, with the opposing army slowly being scythed down before the strength of the defense wielders , but any ground commander can see that and retreat. The magic knights practically guarantee a slow waiting motion until, you guessed it, they press the offensive. As opposed to the lancers, who would have just broken the enemy lines and then slaughtered the routing forces. One ends the fight in a single turn, while the other takes multiple turns and ties up our massive investment in a goose chase.
For the nth time, the purpose of Defense/Magic is not to go out and destroy things. That should have been made obvious by the term Defense inherent in the name. The point is to present such a bothersome target that an enemy's mustered forces don't want to try, and to put this target smack dab in the middle of the minions' routes of attack, or at major forts, where these guys can massively leverage their primary advantages and deny the benefit of numbers or open-ground raiding. If we never have to rearm a fort in a tile because these guys are stationed there, or never have to commit turn after turn of useful patrols to a spread of tiles we'd be better off being able to ignore...
Lancers, on the other hand, would basically just be yet another retinue equivalent, even when tied with archers or defenders. They could only be directed at a tile to do things we already do with patrols, just with more force behind them. At their best, they are viable to perform Attack actions without needing large retinue/militia contributions (but still needing retinue/militia contributions lest all of the casualties fall to them). They can't be used to effectively siege forts. They can't be used in the Goron, Zora, Gerudo, or Forest Race lands at their full force, due to the terrain impediments inherent in their territories. Assuming the quarter-ton plus, 6-8 foot tall typically greatspear-toting moblins can even be overrun with cavalry charges, it's obvious that even more primitive groupings of minions have their own counter to lancers. They aren't a magic bullet, just a cheap alternative to throwing 3-4 extra units of militia/retinue onto an attack action and a reusable point of retinue.
On the other hand, mage knights provide a different type of answer to our existing problems, an alternate solution that doesn't boil down to 'hit it very hard,' for the times we can't hit it hard enough. They can be used to distract and delay problems for future turns so that we can actually put together the strength to hit hard things hard enough, with the advantage of having magic to counter penalties on the planned attack follow-ups.
Oh, okay. I think I'm starting to get where our biggest differences are.
You want a suppression ability that you can just plant for a few turns and completely ignore, not requiring any maintenance while you go beat the tar out of everything else with your militia and retinue. You are willing to spend a turn preparing for that alone, and ignore anything that might come up that turn, because of it's increased cost. (Likely reestablishing the College of Magi is going to require an additional tax, but setting up this group might waive it. Pay now v pay later). Because this group has more available area to operate, you think it's better suited for the task at hand - namely, making Hyrule great again. Leaving that troop there in a crucial chokepoint - heck, even in the ruins of the old fort is going to enough to deny your opponents several weeks worth of fighting. You believe that lancers do not give you the same benefit as magic does provides in terms of supporting defensive capabilities and countering debuffs.
I believe the opposite. We're in the early game, which means that I think we should be expanding our resource base as fast as we can support it. With this in mind, I want to have an army-breaking force ASAP - retinue and militia don't deal with armies as efficiently as we'd like them to, and sieges waste valuable time. I understand that we have time, but I believe that speed allows us to feed a virtuous cycle, letting us kill our enemies faster and get more funds to kill more enemies. But I digress. Lancers typically are the deciding factor - in one of the battles that I linked, one side had 5x as few soldiers and won decisively. In terms of bad terrain, yes that's true. Lancers are likely to be unusable in Goron, Forest, Zora, or Gerudo territories, but that still leaves half a map of easy revenue. Maybe lancers are just cheaper retinue, but that lets us accomplish more objectives per turn or bring a bigger stick to the important fights, which will let us earn enough for a suppression focused order shortly after.
Lancers aren't a magic bullet, but neither is literal magic (heh), and given that this is the stage were I think we should be aggressive in hunting down large threats, I think lancers are a better investment which will allow us to take other actions in the turn.
Quarter ton moblins are just 500 pounds, which two armored soldiers would have easily reached. As I've demonstrated, lancers kill them just fine. Another big thing about lancers is that halfhearted pikes in the general direction doesn't work against a lancer charge - it has to be a concentration of pikes or a artillery barrage. I'm not sure what the smaller creature counters are - pile bodies on the end of the lance :? Even the medieval soldiers only had two good counters; close pike formation and artillery. Finally, for lancers to overrun a host of enemies, the lancers have to force them to break position - once the enemies do, the battle becomes mop-up. If the enemies don't, the cavalry division takes massive casualties fighting their way out of a hemmed in position. They don't have to outmatch each enemy individually; that's what tactics are for.
You do make good points though, and I'd like to get suppression soon too. I just think that aggression is going to be more valuable immediately.
Oh, okay. I think I'm starting to get where our biggest differences are.
You want a suppression ability that you can just plant for a few turns and completely ignore, not requiring any maintenance while you go beat the tar out of everything else with your militia and retinue. You are willing to spend a turn preparing for that alone, and ignore anything that might come up that turn, because of it's increased cost. (Likely reestablishing the College of Magi is going to require an additional tax, but setting up this group might waive it. Pay now v pay later). Because this group has more available area to operate, you think it's better suited for the task at hand - namely, making Hyrule great again. Leaving that troop there in a crucial chokepoint - heck, even in the ruins of the old fort is going to enough to deny your opponents several weeks worth of fighting. You believe that lancers do not give you the same benefit as magic does provides in terms of supporting defensive capabilities and countering debuffs.
I believe the opposite. We're in the early game, which means that I think we should be expanding our resource base as fast as we can support it. With this in mind, I want to have an army-breaking force ASAP - retinue and militia don't deal with armies as efficiently as we'd like them to, and sieges waste valuable time. I understand that we have time, but I believe that speed allows us to feed a virtuous cycle, letting us kill our enemies faster and get more funds to kill more enemies. But I digress. Lancers typically are the deciding factor - in one of the battles that I linked, one side had 5x as few soldiers and won decisively. In terms of bad terrain, yes that's true. Lancers are likely to be unusable in Goron, Forest, Zora, or Gerudo territories, but that still leaves half a map of easy revenue. Maybe lancers are just cheaper retinue, but that lets us accomplish more objectives per turn or bring a bigger stick to the important fights, which will let us earn enough for a suppression focused order shortly after.
Lancers aren't a magic bullet, but neither is literal magic (heh), and given that this is the stage were I think we should be aggressive in hunting down large threats, I think lancers are a better investment which will allow us to take other actions in the turn.
Quarter ton moblins are just 500 pounds, which two armored soldiers would have easily reached. As I've demonstrated, lancers kill them just fine. Another big thing about lancers is that halfhearted pikes in the general direction doesn't work against a lancer charge - it has to be a concentration of pikes or a artillery barrage. I'm not sure what the smaller creature counters are - pile bodies on the end of the lance :? Even the medieval soldiers only had two good counters; close pike formation and artillery. Finally, for lancers to overrun a host of enemies, the lancers have to force them to break position - once the enemies do, the battle becomes mop-up. If the enemies don't, the cavalry division takes massive casualties fighting their way out of a hemmed in position. They don't have to outmatch each enemy individually; that's what tactics are for.
You do make good points though, and I'd like to get suppression soon too. I just think that aggression is going to be more valuable immediately.
Except your argument hinges on getting your cavalry immediately, in the 'early game', so to speak. Even as it stands now, it'd be unreasonable to expect to have anything given back until at least turn 6. With 4 turns of continued effort, we'll have already cleared most of the Ordon and Kakariko provinces, likely by accident in the course of regular patrols and turn-by-turn event opportunities. At that point, the only use of lancers would be as a renewable patrol unit to throw at the largest of molehills, as though it's a mountain. Mage knights on the other hand would give us exactly what we'd need for the times they'd start being available; something to keep the chokepoints and far-forts reinforced against the bigger threats above our current ability to just attack and disperse.
Except your argument hinges on getting your cavalry immediately, in the 'early game', so to speak. Even as it stands now, it'd be unreasonable to expect to have anything given back until at least turn 6. With 4 turns of continued effort, we'll have already cleared most of the Ordon and Kakariko provinces, likely by accident in the course of regular patrols and turn-by-turn event opportunities. At that point, the only use of lancers would be as a renewable patrol unit to throw at the largest of molehills, as though it's a mountain. Mage knights on the other hand would give us exactly what we'd need for the times they'd start being available; something to keep the chokepoints and far-forts reinforced against the bigger threats above our current ability to just attack and disperse.
Wait. How many turns are we expecting this game to last in the Kingdom turn anyway @wootius? Can we resolve the plot in under twenty turns for a good ending? Are we going fast?
The other thing is that we kinda aren't moving fast enough to take Kakariko and Ordon provinces by turn 6 or 7. So far we've only taken territory in the Deep Forest and within our own borders- the one strike expedition we've sent to C7 is the first time we've entered Ordon province. Add on top of that Zora Canal Defense and suddenly we don't look like we're going to be able to clear Ordon in 6 turns, let alone both. Right now it's slightly hidden, but every operation costs nearly a third of our available military actions a turn. Want to defend Hyrule Fields? 1/3 of your military strength! Want to attack that army? 1/2 your military strength! This makes lancers, whenever feasible, massive, because we can save money by deploying the Lancers to the fields rather than the militia and retinue, or siege a fort and wreck reinforcements, etc. Leaving targets alive just makes this problem worse, as the suppression angle seems to be doing. It's still worth doing quickly though - maybe just not the very first thing we do.
You didn't take the Ice caverns this turn. All you've done so far is kick the bee hive, and the Gorons may have wounded a faction leader but there are two more unaccounted for.
+1 for lancers now. I agree that makes are really important, and definitely don't want to wait too long. However I feel huhyeahygood point does have a very strong case that lancers are a cheap and very effective way to increase the rate at which we can reclaim territory. In essence, an investment in our economy.
I believe that lancers/archers (because what else will it be?) is a poor decision for a first choice order. It gives little but offense, at a time when we most need defense instead. Attacks use up a good chunk of potential patrols, but even flat adding this order onto an attacking force (say, the 6 total trend value attack applied this turn that has failed to dislodge the enemy) won't be enough by itself, given what we now know of the strength of enemy strongholds. Even if the order can be calculated as +4 flat retinue to an attack, if 6 only kicked the beehive, I doubt 10 would have done more than bloody it. Even with everything we had this turn, all 6 factors of militia, and the potential all 8 factors of retinue, ignoring larder costs, likely couldn't have even destroyed them outright.
And they're just one of four major strongholds in our immediate circle of territory, two of which we know are basically built into the sides of mountains, where lancers just don't work. Suppression and a defensive middle finger is definitely the way to go here, rather than having to cook off 1-2 larder and lock up 2-4 retinue or more defending the nearest fort only from attacks by these minion factions until we can finally afford to break them.
Yay. there is a consensus on the earlier plan (to spend a ton of resources and try to curb stomp the Ice Caverns), right? The knightly order debate need not be settled this turn.
To summarize the argument:
Huhyeahgoodpoint and I seem to think an aggressive knightly order is better in the short run, while powerofmind believes defensive is better. Strong arguments were made oin both sides.
I move to table it for now, until the update. We can propose plans and put them to a vote some time after.
Yay. there is a consensus on the earlier plan (to spend a ton of resources and try to curb stomp the Ice Caverns), right? The knightly order debate need not be settled this turn.
Since I'm late, I'll spill details. Your six units and the forest's two(that they have total) routed everything outside the caverns pretty much. Some Wolfus units escaped to the west, but the ten units of spooky foot skeletons were reduced to four-ish and pushed into the Ice Caverns.
But now you're seiging a mountain with regenerating defenders who can fling themselves from above and unlive, ice chuchu drawn to lunch, and wizzrobes teleporting around.
Update is being worked on. Went to a (delayed) New Year's festival yesterday had some fun.
But now you're seiging a mountain with regenerating defenders who can fling themselves from above and live, ice chuchu drawn to lunch, and wizzrobes teleporting around.
The crown lay beyond the crowd, a blue satin path lined with your guard and the last Red Lion, Lord Dorin, leading the way. Not everyone in the crowd looked comfortable, whether it was the disquieting number giving furtive glances to the barely visible red stained sky or the cowardly third of them that'd kept their titles only at the grace of your Regency Council.
It was supposed to be symbolic, you walking through the crowd to reach it. If any objected, they were supposed to address it before the crown was donned and they moved to take their oaths. Like most bits of ceremony, most were too polite to follow it even if they did have an objection. Or they'd rather not have their objections be so publicly known.
So you progressed through them, with a smile or thanks for every murmur from a subject lining the satin path. All were unarmed, for what need is there for blades between a loyal subject and their liege? As were you, but palace guards walked with you and lined the edges of the roof.
You can't remember the last time you didn't have a sizeable armed escort. It'd only been two years since the last chameleon-like lizalfos had slipped onto Castle Island. The three lizardfolk hadn't gotten far, but who else would they be coming for with knives and poison?
The crown sat on an emerald pillow, to compliment the central stone, placed on a throne: a high backed, unadorned white marble chair made for portability. A stripe of sunlight had snuck past the cloth above, warming your back as you traced gloved fingers over the silver oak leaves and little gold koroks lining the crown. You remember asking each shy korrok to model their masks for you while crafting it, laughing at leaves that somehow blushed.
You lifted it but didn't don it as you turn to address your waiting subjects.
"Some may ask, what will I do with my my crown? What is my goal, what do I feel my purpose? The peace has been won they say, fragile as it is. All that's left is the rebuilding, to tighten the borders around our lands and all will be well. Leave the Gorons to hide in their mountains, they're being unreasonable. Leave the Forest alone, it's always defended itself." You don't catch anyone's eye yet, "Rebuild half a kingdom and accept its diminishment. Some would accept that, saying that enough have paid their service and to leave our land half conquered to spare anyone else."
You pause there, long enough to catch those that squirm. It's fewer than you'd feared it would be. A breeze ruffles the canopy above you, moving the stripe of sunlight across your front. It reminds you of being in the chamber earlier this morning, giving you an idea. You start to nudge the cloth, moving it with the cadence of your speech.
"Eight years ago, my father paid his service in full. I don't think he'd accept that. I do not think any that marched with him then or any day would accept that. That his land would live on in fear huddled behind walls slowly being pressed backward. "
You don your crown then, but wait to sit.
"I think we should rather accept the goal of finishing their task. I believe Hyrule need not endure this blight, but to prevail over it! Hylia did not live, then die to see her charges picked off one by one,"and there is some squirming at that, "I will not accept a crown to hide behind it: As she once was, I will be the vanguard against the darkness. I may begin my reign over a half conquered land, but when it ends it will be free."
You sit then, sunlight slipping off you entirely as you settle into the throne. It's cast on the tip of throne's marble back now, a soft golden triangle the you're in no way nudging fabric with as little magic as possible to form. A small gesture signals the guards in front of you to allow people forward. There's only quiet whispering, but their faces are more thoughtful than sculpted blankness, so maybe your theatrics will pay off.
Option gained!
kingdom modifier
Vanguards of the Realm!
You have called your people to arms and they have responded with a roar, that they will not hide from the night. So long as you pick Inspirational as one of the Order traits you may use the following:
You may spend 2 Tax, 2 Militia Downward trends, and 1 Retinue Downward Trend to gain a new or rearmed fortress that'll serve as the Knightly Order's base, which will have the same effects as a reinforced fort(for no ongoing cost). In 2 turns, you will gain the choosen Order unit.
Next is gathering last vote's forces up and fhe messengers from the forest.
