How to Train Your Dragon 2

Leeanderthal

Derp Dragon
So given that this movie is coming out tomorrow, I think that making this thread a bit preemptively is going to be excused.

This thread is for discussing the upcoming How to Train Your Dragon sequel. Feel free to speculate in the 6 or so hours we have left.
 
If i had seen this movie before i had found SB and SV i would have enjoyed it like a normal movie and liked it because i enjoy the characters and the plot was ok

but since i have been on this site i spent half the time judging whether the bad guy was competently using his forces properly, and who he could beat in a war/battle
dammit SV
 
Well that turned out a lot darker then I would have expected from a PG rating and it appears that if you watched the series that the transition from the first movie and the second would have appeared a lot smoother. Didn't really detract otherwise.

Toothless being put under mind control to kill Stoic was a really bold move and I'm still not sure how I feel about it.

I of course now want to see the match up of Toothless vs Godzilla.
 
My only question is, what the hell happened to Astrid's face? Was it always like that?
 
Well that turned out a lot darker then I would have expected from a PG rating and it appears that if you watched the series that the transition from the first movie and the second would have appeared a lot smoother. Didn't really detract otherwise.
I don't know about that. Aside from a couple of cameos from some side characters and dragons introduced in the Series, nothing else really connected the two.

Toothless being put under mind control to kill Stoic was a really bold move and I'm still not sure how I feel about it.
Yeah, I couldn't believe they pulled that off either. Up until they lit the Funeral Ship, I kept expecting Stoic to get up.
 
When IGN said that this was "how to make a sequel", they were not fucking kidding.

What can I say? It's well worth watching. Hell it'd be worth watching again if my family wants to go!

Overall I can't say much in the negative about it... but I LOVED how they made it clear that it's the bond between Rider and Dragon that triumphs, not the pure power of a Night Fury or Bewilderbeast. There are some battles only one or the other can fight, but by working as a team the other can aid in a fight that is not their own. Without a rider they have a strong bond with, a powerful enough alpha could force them to do things against their will without being able to block it out like Hiccup does with the rag and using his hands. That's what I loved - that Hiccup and Toothless would trade off near seamlessly once united, winning their battles but supporting each other throughout.

And... well, THIS is how you make a series move in a darker direction. Riders/Defenders of Berk was already doing it which I think helped the transition, but even without that bracing you the movie starts on the happy note and steadily introduces the darker notes until the wham. In the hands of an untalented team, they'd be milking Hiccup's angst for all it was worth and let it stay dark. Not them; they show what makes Hiccup, well, Hiccup. Even in despair he's still attentive - he notices the control of Toothless fading when the Bewilderbeast wasn't paying attention to him and used that to his advantage... even then, he ended up doing it THROUGH the Bewilderbeast's control, which is fucking impressive and shows why Hiccup was one of those able to bride the divide considering the wham that had lead up to that. They bring us through the wringer and show that Hiccup's high optimism (which, with the end of Defenders of Berk, actually makes sense as noticed here), yet in the end... Hiccup doesn't hate Toothless and recognizes that Toothless was also a victim and in the end they got through it and the end result was... well, a more moderate view. Hiccup recognized he can't talk his way out of every situation, yet at the same time he was still going to stand for peace. In the grim Dark Ages, there may only be war... but there are those who are willing to stand for something greater, coming beyond war and casting back the darkness. Yet even they must contend with the darkness and the real wham of the movie.

Holy shit, I mean, damn, mind controlled Toothless finishing Stoick with a shot meant for Hiccup? They didn't pull any punches, did they? And that's the kind of wham that makes them revealing Hiccup's mother in the trailers palpable to me. They still had plenty of wham to go around. And the fact that Stoick just took it and died worked, I think. I mean, Toothless puts out some serious yields; I don't care if Stocik catches siege weaponry and throws it right back at Alvin's goons, he's not invincible and they reminded us that on a very powerful note. And showed why everyone feared Night Furies so much... yeah, we don't see why Toothless is scary most of the time because he's a cuddly pet, but we haven't seen the results of people who were on the receiving end in detail; they usually show people leaping clear when it happens.

I will say that Stoick's new dragon... honestly, I know it was a time thing, but it would of been nice if Thornado was back, though I guess he'd still be busy raising the little Thunderdrums. Though at least we did see plenty of Thunderdrums - heck, maybe the Thunderdrums at the beginning were Thornado and the others. Though, given that they only barely worked with the series that makes sense. At least they know well enough to make sure to tidy up all the messes, which is better than some EUs (cough, ForceUnleashed, cough). That said, I liked his dragon and the personality fit. But... eh, *shrugs*

As to Valka... I'll admit, I'm a little disappointed that she ended up being sidelined at the end, but then again pretty much everyone was for what was very much a battle of good versus evil as exemplified in Hiccup, Drago, Toothless, and Drago's dark alpha. Loyalty versus fear. Friendship versus subservience. Freedom versus Slavery. Yet... I liked her overall. I mean, she was introduced well, you could feel how she was struggling to become familiar with interacting with humans again rather than animal instinct, etc. I'll admit, I think the flashback was slightly forced with her stopping a Viking from taking out that Monstrous Nightmare, but that was a minor quibble and was probably just chosen for emphasizing the point quickly.

Overall... everyone was competent. Drago had a proven method and was confident in his power... for damn good reason as we were shown given it almost completely overrode the friendships the riders had. Hiccup was overly optimistic, but the moment he sees that it's not possible he dropped it and while he never outright said he was going for the kill I hold no doubts that had the two had a swordfight (well, flaming sword versus what's probably a gronkle iron spear), Hiccup would not hold back and would slash to kill. At the same time, any errors that were made all felt in character. Hiccup stopped a war, and if you take the series as canon he calmed down a powerful dragon that was compared fairly close to being something world ending and drops islands. Of course he's going to believe a peaceful solution is possible. And Drago lived in fear for so long it's not surprising that he lost sight of motives like loyalty and friendship over the years as he had raw power.

Also... the war scene. Holy fucking shit THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT! Mobius One, EAT YOUR HEART OUT! That was air support! The only thing that would of been more awesome was seeing Berk's own fighters on the ground, but honestly that I'm okay with given it probably wouldn't have the numbers. It was suitably epic and it felt like the mother of all shitstorms going on, but the riders blowing the everloving crap out of Drago's army (I think it's telling that he had no human troops to throw into the assault on Berk) really shows how strong they had grown to be since barely managing to hang on against the Red Death.

I did love the ending though. Hiccup and Toothless both rose to lead... but what works was that if you look closely, you see them learning the lessons they'd need. The Bewilderbeast at the glacial sanctuary never used his control on the dragons and fought hard. Stoick constantly goes on about the chief's responsibility being to protect the people. Toothless and Hiccup in different ways do JUST THAT. Obviously, they fight off Drago and his beast... but there's a more subtle fight, yet probably more important. Hiccup helped protect Toothless from Drago's beasts control and broke him out of that, and Toothless has been protecting Hiccup from his fuckups with the wingsuit (Also: HOLY SHIT THEY DROPPED A ROCK FORMATION BY CRASHING THROUGH IT?!) and generally worked together... and that let them beat the shit out of Drago's power. Both showed they would defend Berk as much as possible, all of it's inhabitants: Human and Dragon alike.

Essentially... Toothless became the alpha the way it was supposed to happen. Bewilderbeasts often just had an easy time by sheer size and power. Also, any idea what that plasma thing he did? Was Toothless like, overclocking with his plasma blasts there? I mean HOLY SHIT DID YOU SEE THE FIREPOWER HE SPAT OUT? He blew that tusk straight off!

And Hiccup... ironically, he became the hero that the Vikings would love because he was different. I mean, in a standard Viking saga his sword would probably of been forged by Thor or something but still be more or less the same. Hiccup did all of that himself.

Speaking of Hiccup's sword, I noticed that Drago's forces had a rather punk-ish appearance given they were actually firing cannons at the glacial sanctuary. That's awesome, and honestly I'd like to see Berk slowly develop their own 'punk' from Hiccup's engineering combined with the fire that dragons have. Figure out how to make Gronkle Iron and Berk could easily be the technological powerhouse of the Dark Ages... which would be pretty awesome, in a way, Berk evolving from wanting to be the best warriors to being the damn best warriors... because they prefer to be industrial, forge friendships, and search for peace.

And with Drago still out there and other threats awaiting Berk from Hiccup's narration... they'll be ready.

Hiccup's narration... I loved it. It's not a standard friendship, it's not him being a snarky smartass that he's lovable as. He's grown into a capable leader on his own, and that ending speech was practically a badass boast to anyone who wants to mess with Berk again. Let none doubt that Berk is defended, no matter how small it may be.

I also love how they brought the old themes back, excellent nostalgia, but they only used that as a base to spring from. Familiar characters, familiar setting... new era, new adventures.

Also... apparently, Hiccup is 6' 1'' now... holy hell what do those Berk Vikings EAT?! That puts most of them at seven feet at least!

Honestly... I'd fucking watch it again in the theatre. It's a shame that it probably feel under the "oh must be a kid's movie"... it's really worth watching. I'd seriously consider it a contender with stuff like the MCU. Hell, it probably plasma blasted Frozen out of the water.
 
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I liked the movie as a whole, but the complete lack of blood or other visible injury at certain key moments when it should have been there catapulted me straight out of my emotional investment with those scenes.
 
So, just so I'm clear, am I the only one who thought that Drago looked a lot like Mickey Rourke?

Also, Kit Harington as Eret made me laugh my ass off, considering that his character in Game of Thrones is implied to be related to THAT setting's dragon riders as well.
 
Just got back from watching this movie, it was pretty great. Anything I could really say about it is summed up by Luke Danger's post.

I REALLY want to take a look at the book series now.
 
Just got back from watching this movie, it was pretty great. Anything I could really say about it is summed up by Luke Danger's post.

So, you agree Mobius One would blanch at how good the Defenders of Berk were providing CAS and how much damage they were causing? :p :D

(Now why do I wish that the next season of the TV series has an airborne dragon battle on the scale of the Shattered Skies over Comona Island?)

I REALLY want to take a look at the book series now.

A little forewarning - the book series was meant for younger kids, the movie series is actually a good deal darker than the original material and there's some significant differences due to pragmatic adaptation. Though, the author, Cressida Cowell, did say that the pragmatic adaptation was absolutely fine by her and they did a good job from what I've read, so it's not like there's some big disconnect between the original and the movies/TV series (even if the premises are fairly different - IE, there was no dragon war in the books, Toothless was more like a Terrible Terror than being the badass Night Fury we know, etc.)

Doesn't mean it's not a good read and from what I read on TVTropes it actually gets pretty damn dark for a kid's book too (so the pragmatic adaptation wasn't totally out of the equation), but just some fair warning. I'd give 'em a fair shake and I've heard pretty much just good things about the books.
 
So, you agree Mobius One would blanch at how good the Defenders of Berk were providing CAS and how much damage they were causing? :p :D

(Now why do I wish that the next season of the TV series has an airborne dragon battle on the scale of the Shattered Skies over Comona Island?)

Yeah, the Berk Riders were kicking ass up until White Bewilderbeast got taken down. Everyone got their own little moments, which was great.

So Hiccup and Toothless = Mobius One then?


A little forewarning - the book series was meant for younger kids, the movie series is actually a good deal darker than the original material and there's some significant differences due to pragmatic adaptation. Though, the author, Cressida Cowell, did say that the pragmatic adaptation was absolutely fine by her and they did a good job from what I've read, so it's not like there's some big disconnect between the original and the movies/TV series (even if the premises are fairly different - IE, there was no dragon war in the books, Toothless was more like a Terrible Terror than being the badass Night Fury we know, etc.)

Doesn't mean it's not a good read and from what I read on TVTropes it actually gets pretty damn dark for a kid's book too (so the pragmatic adaptation wasn't totally out of the equation), but just some fair warning. I'd give 'em a fair shake and I've heard pretty much just good things about the books.

When the original author okay with your movie adaptation, you know you've done something right.

I don't mind darkness (honestly SB/SV has a hair trigger reaction to anything remotely dark that sometimes gets a little annoying). Considering Avatar the Last Airbender and Korra are a "children's" series as well, I think the boundaries have changed dramatically over the years.

I'll give it shot when I can.
 
I liked the movie as a whole, but the complete lack of blood or other visible injury at certain key moments when it should have been there catapulted me straight out of my emotional investment with those scenes.

Yeah, they really reigned in the Dragons a great deal to make them less terrifying then they were in the first movie. It wasn't just how Stoic died essentially uninjured; the dragons seems... well toothless compared to the first movie. A Night Fury was this terrifying monster of speed and destructive power, and while he was still fast here, we never got to hear the whistle of his flight, and his breadth seemed more 'fireworks' rather then 'oh god why.'

I liked the plot more, but I really don't think they did themselves any favors by making the Dragons less this movie then the first.
 
To be fair the entire point of the first movie was Hiccup proving that dragons are actually cats. I think the reason they were so "terrifying" in the first movie was because it was from the perspective of the vikings, who were being attacked in the dead of night by giant fire-breathing lizards. Second movie the fear is gone since they've been domesticated.

I agree that the lack of gore really threw off the action scenes. Worst for me was the death of the white Alpha (blackie stabs white in guts with tusk, kills... no blood whatsoever)
 
Yeah. I'm wondering if they originally had bloodstains or at least scorch marks (since I suspect gore that isn't a half-eaten fish wouldn't fly very far with the rating they had), but they were told to take them out for ratings or something since it's still a "family" movie.

I mean, let's be honest, other than the Red Death, the White Alpha, and Stoick, there's never really been on screen deaths in HTTYD or the tie-in series. IE, whenever the Defenders of Berk are airstriking an Outcast or Berserker vessel and sinking it, everyone leaps overboard and escapes. Here, I mean we can guess that Drago took a shitton of casualties, but we never actually see anyone die. The closest is the carpet gassing + ignition by Barf & Belch followed by Stormfly, but we don't see any actual casualties.

Honestly, I think they could of at least gotten away with a couple scorch marks on Stoick, even if they're essentially superficial.

That said... I honestly think that was a high point for the movie mostly because it powerfully exemplified what they were up against and reminded us that war is terrible. There is a cost to it, and well... sets up that Drago's not exactly going to be brushed off. Which is important for villains - they should have some sort of effect on the heroes that lasts, like Hiccup losing his other leg after taking out the Red Death (though that was powerful for numerous other reasons)

That, or Odin really wanted Stoick the Vast amongst his ranks for Ragnarok and the Valkyries realized they had to play dirty since he was pretty busy beating Drago's ass and well, if he couldn't pull it off...

Yeah, the Berk Riders were kicking ass up until White Bewilderbeast got taken down. Everyone got their own little moments, which was great.

So Hiccup and Toothless = Mobius One then?

Yeah pretty much :p Or at least they have that level of reputation, considering that Hiccup was thought to be ten feet tall and with the strength of a dozen men in the series by those who had never met him personally, and it's heavily implied in the series (particularly with how Bucket paints his portrait) that no matter what Hiccup does, he's likely going to be remembered as a big guy who was a badass rather than the small guy who was a badass by not fighting.

And hell, the good guys were winning up until Drago's alpha killed the glacial sanctuary's and all the dragons got effectively mind controlled (My guess is that the White Alpha was providing some sort of protection or was using it's own to "bind" them to it but letting them do what they wanted in the process, and without that everyone was vulnerable), which really says something considering they were outnumbered and definitely out equipped (the sanctuary dragons with no gear vs dragons armored up and likely trained for that kind of fighting)

When the original author okay with your movie adaptation, you know you've done something right.

I don't mind darkness (honestly SB/SV has a hair trigger reaction to anything remotely dark that sometimes gets a little annoying). Considering Avatar the Last Airbender and Korra are a "children's" series as well, I think the boundaries have changed dramatically over the years.

I'll give it shot when I can.

Yeah. Honestly... HTTYD 2 is not only "How to Make a Sequel", it's "How to Delve Into Darker Material" because it does it right. Yes, it's dark compared to the first movie, but it's not so far removed from the origin that it feels like someone threw Hiccup into Warhammer 40K.

In the hands of a bad author, they'd be playing up Hiccup's angst past the point of logic - IE, his immediate reaction while grief and a shitton of other emotions are whirling around in him after what happened to Stoick - and rather than have him understand what happened they'd be playing up a destroyed friendship arc despite the fact that Hiccup is smart enough that, if he's thinking rationally (and he's usually good at that, even if he doesn't think some things through sometimes), he'd recognize that it was Toothless being enthralled rather than willingly killing Stoick.

So yeah... HTTYD 2 went appreciably dark for me, but it refused to stay there in the grim dark ages and came into the light. Hell, it started in the light but steadily became more serious over time and didn't hit us with a war hammer of "Hiccup's world has gone to hell! Welcome to the Dung Ages where live sucks!"; it was more "Drago is a terrible man who has caused great distress... but by beating him, peace can come again."

Hell, Hiccup's speech at the end was essentially screaming "Yeah, we'd rather be industrious folk here on Berk, enjoy life and bonding with our dragons then go out and fight. But if you fuck with us or our dragons, we will shatter your armies, destroy your fleets, and absolutely positively wreck your shit."

Or, as Hiccup says to Dagur the Deranged in Defenders of Berk...

Also... watching Riders of Berk... two things.

1) It actually shows Toothless more or less being the de facto alpha dragon amongst Berk's dragon population, ranging from trying to contain Hookfang when he was having a rampage over a bad tooth, trying to tell Hiccup not to take a young wounded dragon they found since he knew it's mother would be looking for it, breaking up a fight between Hookfang and Barf & Belch while on Dragon Island, leading them to completely fuck up Astrid's training scenario on Dragon Island, etc.

2) Man, there's some lines that are just horrific to hear. I mean, it's heartwarming seeing Stoick preparing Hiccup to rise to become Chief, but lines like this...
Fishlegs: "You are part of an elite group now, my friend. And one of the few who wasn't killed by their successor!" (in regards to a picture of him and Stoick being put up in the great hall per Berk tradition)

... just, wow. You gotta wonder if Fishlegs felt terrible about saying that given that Toothless and Hiccup are so close you'd almost think that'd count... and I'm sure some lore nut in Berk would be asking that question.
 
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Well I guess one good thing about Stoic's death (if you can say such a thing) is that is was quick.

Also for shame Luke Danger, all that nice discussion and you go and trip at the finish line with a spelling mistake.
 
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1% Damage taken while finishing off the Grim Derpness of the Dark Ages?

Worth it. :D

Now back to the discussion.

Okay let's see. . .

Toothless becoming the alpha was something I kinda saw coming a mile away, but it was still an awesome scene.

Also I've only seen a few episode of Defenders of Berk, but I liked what I saw. Certainly a better cartoon adaptation than Kung Fu Panda Legends of Awesomeness.

So, I just have one question: are we getting a third movie?
 
We are; two years 'till it's out or so.

And I didn't see it, but looking back... holy hell I know the team on the movie wasn't coordinating much with the series (hence why they have Stoick's dragon there, Thornado, leave to make room for Stoick's new dragon in the sequel), but... there's a lot of uncanny moments in the series that just fit so damn well into the narrative of the franchise as a whole. Hiccup evolving from a snarky kid who pretty much has to fight through Toothless to being able to take on a goddamn Berserker in CQB without Toothless' help, to Stoick preparing him steadily to be a leader and giving him a taste of it via the Berk Dragon Academy, to the setting becoming darker and war looming on the horizon as the Riders of Berk evolved into its Defenders, making the tone of the movie more of a logical conclusion than any big jump.... and a lot of smaller scenes that just fit, like the aforementioned scenes of Toothless taking the lead amongst the dragons and generally sorting things out between them.

I'm kinda curious how they're going to move on from here. I mean, the books from what I understand had some sort of prophecy regarding Hiccup uniting the various Viking tribes in the islands, but I'm not sure if they want to go that direction. They did originally have Gothi (the old lady who has terrible terrors up the wazzo in the sequel and the one who chose Hiccup to go against the Monstrous Nightmare in the original movie) doing a prophecy about Hiccup ending the war, but they dropped that in favor of just letting the friendship foreshadow it.

TBH... I think they could introduce some Low Magic into the setting without really breaking the suspension of disbelief given the various abilities dragons have. Not like, +1 Platemail low, like, it's absolutely rare and not common at all; and probably not combat based.

Though, I do hope that they have the next big bad fight smarter, not harder. Basically, take most of what we already know and extrapolate from there to have a fearsome foe rather than just giving the guy an even bigger dragon to command or using an even bigger dragon.
 
Maybe the next big bad could be some sort of alpha dragon who rightfully mistrusts humans. He doesn't have to be giant, maybe the size of Toothless or just a little bigger.

Honestly I'm not sure what else they could do for a big bad.
 
Honestly... they could easily just do regular old humans.

Well, regular for HTTYD. It's not some super dragon. It's not some powerful conqueror who uses dragons like cavalry. It's just Berk's neighbors freaking out from what just happened.

I mean, there's a number of fics where the political situation is tenous because of the dragons and the power they represent - shit, an entire episode in Riders was all about not letting the Berserkers realize that Berk was up to the gills with dragons and that they were riding as to avoid a war.

Basically, Berk wants to keep the peace but everyone around them feels threatened, especially since they probably got a massive dragon population influx from the Glacial Sanctuary dragons AND Drago's, so they also pretty much have all the samples they need to figure out how to do it themselves. What's stopping Berk from making like Drago?

Hell, Drago was probably a Worst Case Scenario in the minds of the various Viking chiefs: An army of dragons prepared specifically for war. Berk was probably toeing the line the entire time between using dragons in defense and not making everyone think they'd unleash them on their towns. Especially since it's implied in the series that wild dragons still cause chaos elsewhere even if Berk is pretty much peaceful because any wild ones are warded off by Hiccup, Toothless, and the others. But now they've got a huge number of them and just beat their probable Worse Case Scenario?

That, I think, they could spin something from. It's not a new greater threat, it's Berk and it's people trying to maintain their way of life without alienating everyone.

I dunno, I feel like that'd be a nice way to do it. We had a dragon bad guy in the first movie, we had Drago in the second and he used dragons, why not go all the way and have regular old humans be the big bad this time? Plus, if these guys fight smart and even take some of the things Hiccup used and turn it against him that could make for some compelling villains. Not another brute, another Hiccup who does the same as him.

*shrugs* I dunno, I mean... it's a bit hard to do a sequel from this point since it ends so strongly and definitively. Dragons are already integrated nicely into Berk, they clearly rebuild pretty quickly (no surprise given what they spent 300 years surviving), and now they're pretty much almost guaranteed to be THE military power house in the region, and probably have a fully functioning doctrine on how to incorporate all elements of warfare - Vikings, Ships, and Dragons - thanks to having to deal with guys like Alvin.

TBH, it might be a nice change of pace. Hiccup's trying to deal with a bunch of political bush fires and trying to assert that Berk doesn't want to conquer, they just want to be left in peace instead of getting into every conflict.

The problem is that that's a hard plot to spin without being a political thriller, and they need some sort of antagonist, or something that sparks Berk being hated. I dunno, an accident with dragons or something during a diplomatic visit that strikes too close to home given Drago and all that.
 
my one nit pick on this otherwise awesome movie

HOW the Hell did he tamed the giant Alpha, like how the hell did he punch the thing out or how just explain please.
 
my one nit pick on this otherwise awesome movie

HOW the Hell did he tamed the giant Alpha, like how the hell did he punch the thing out or how just explain please.

As TURBODERP stated, he found it at a young age. He essentially raised it from birth.

From the Official Website,

Found as a hatchling during one of Drago Bludvist's earliest conquests, this particular Bewilderbeast suffered the misfortune of being raised by a madman.

Unlike Hiccup or Valka's warm and empathic approach with dragons, Drago routinely abused his Bewilderbeast to cull out any perceived weakness and to establish a blind loyalty to the self-proclaimed "Dragon God." What emerged from this torturous crucible was Drago's perfect secret weapon: A vicious Bewilderbeast that has known nothing but hatred and a single goal… to end the reign of Valka's alpha Bewilderbeast once and for all.

TBH, they should of had him mention it in the movie. Like;

Drago: "You think you're so good, Hiccup, getting a few grown dragons on your side with 'friendship', yet I can do that in a few moments with force and that's if I'm feeling bored! Otherwise I've got THIS!"
Hiccup: "Yeah, and you subdued that with force?"
Drago: "Yes, though that's the benefit of raising a dragon from a hatchling. I raised it since it was just an egg... and it is MINE! THE DRAGONS ARE MINE!"
Hiccup: "You're a slaving monster," [deploys flamesword], "And you're not abusing the dragons any more!"

I dunno, just a little nod to the fact probably would of been nice, maybe even mention that he goes for Berk's dragon roosts to try and get the young so he can make sure they're his from the start.
 
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