LP archive only has up until Episode 4; what I want is probably in Episode 5, though I forget tbh.Are you joking, or are you actually being serious
Higurashi/Umineko no Naku Koro Ni Discussion Thread
- Thread starter linkhyrule5
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Shinji117
Endless Troller
- Location
- Rokkenjima (Sydney)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What do you want? Maybe I can find it somewhere/remember it?
Also, the somethingawful one is currently in EP5, just finished the study duel introducing Dlanor.
Mmm... It's something with Natushi, and her response to being told in red that Kinzo never truly accepted as part of his family or truly trusted her. Beyond that I don't remember the details.
Shinji117
Endless Troller
- Location
- Rokkenjima (Sydney)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's during the trial, once Beato is cornered and Nat rejects Bern's plea baragain offer to put all the blame on to the then-missing Krauss.
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That was fast. Thanks, I'll try tracking that down.
Shinji117
Endless Troller
- Location
- Rokkenjima (Sydney)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Chapter 23 of EP5's manga has it, if you want to check how that handles it.
Thanks. By the way, where is the SA LP? I can't find one that gets to EP5 - I only see up to EP3.
Shinji117
Endless Troller
- Location
- Rokkenjima (Sydney)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Exterminatus
Tsukumogami User
- Location
- Southern California
Of particular note is that some of the TIPs were untranslated and were only recently translated in both of the LP threads.
Exterminatus
Tsukumogami User
- Location
- Southern California
The Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru LP is now on the LP archive for all to enjoy. It also includes some extra side stories that were not in the game such as Arigato for 556 and the Witches' Tanabata.
- Location
- Wellesley MA
Two things:
1. Higurashi and Umineko are both on sale right now on steam, so I thought it was worth reopening the thread for that. So anyone who want's either title, get them now at a discount.
2. I'm going through Umineko, and I have to admit,
1. Higurashi and Umineko are both on sale right now on steam, so I thought it was worth reopening the thread for that. So anyone who want's either title, get them now at a discount.
2. I'm going through Umineko, and I have to admit,
the sheer amount of lies and crap it's throwing at me is getting rather annoying. Like, I know this scene is completely wrong because I've seen these characters before, I've seen how they act before, and my gut just screams that what I'm looking at would never happen.
I mean, honestly, the whole point of Umineko is that the people are never out of character. Only the Episodes "written" by people who don't care about the characters (*cough* EP7 *cough*) will ever lie to you about what kind of people they are. It'll lie to you about what happened - but everything that happens is "plausible," for a given definition of plausible that includes magic bullshit.
That's the point. The Mystery is relevant only insofar as it leads you to understand why things happened the way they did - it's a whydunnit, not a whodunnit. It's all about the "heart" of the story.
Hence. Without love, it cannot be seen.
That's the point. The Mystery is relevant only insofar as it leads you to understand why things happened the way they did - it's a whydunnit, not a whodunnit. It's all about the "heart" of the story.
Hence. Without love, it cannot be seen.
- Location
- Wellesley MA
The thing is, the magic side always presents the humans in a good light, and if my suspicions so far are correct, at least half these people have to be monsters for the mundane half of the story to even make sense.
It's like the only reason there is a magical explanation at all is that Beatrice wants Battler to love his relatives and doesn't want him to believe all the awful truths about what they do and how they behave.
Like, I'm thinking the "why" behind 90% of the magical explanations comes down to "You have the most horrific family in Japan, here's a fiction about them that will be easier for you to swallow. Now swallow it already you damn brat."
Which is why the obviously fake magic scenes annoy me. And the obviously fake non-magical scenes. They're protecting me from just how ugly the whole thing is. They're hiding just how awful the people are by justifying all the behavior as reasonable and hiding the fact that some of them went around committing mass fratricide.
I'm getting the why, but I want to know the "what". What the hell are these people the story keeps protecting? How do they behave behind closed doors? I suppose if there was a good reason "why" that explains how these people are not inherently murderous people except that they have to be for some reason that would make sense to, you know, a normal person, it would be incredibly contrived, but it might at least convince me that the narrative isn't constantly covering up monsters in human form.
And no, I'm not very loving of this collection of murderous assholes no matter how good a light the narrative puts them in.
Maybe Lambdadelta will shine some light as I go through the second half, Ronove complained that she wasn't putting any heart into the game so we might actually see some of the ugly.
It's like the only reason there is a magical explanation at all is that Beatrice wants Battler to love his relatives and doesn't want him to believe all the awful truths about what they do and how they behave.
Like, I'm thinking the "why" behind 90% of the magical explanations comes down to "You have the most horrific family in Japan, here's a fiction about them that will be easier for you to swallow. Now swallow it already you damn brat."
Which is why the obviously fake magic scenes annoy me. And the obviously fake non-magical scenes. They're protecting me from just how ugly the whole thing is. They're hiding just how awful the people are by justifying all the behavior as reasonable and hiding the fact that some of them went around committing mass fratricide.
I'm getting the why, but I want to know the "what". What the hell are these people the story keeps protecting? How do they behave behind closed doors? I suppose if there was a good reason "why" that explains how these people are not inherently murderous people except that they have to be for some reason that would make sense to, you know, a normal person, it would be incredibly contrived, but it might at least convince me that the narrative isn't constantly covering up monsters in human form.
And no, I'm not very loving of this collection of murderous assholes no matter how good a light the narrative puts them in.
Maybe Lambdadelta will shine some light as I go through the second half, Ronove complained that she wasn't putting any heart into the game so we might actually see some of the ugly.
Also, 90% sure the point of the story is emotional torture porn. The best kind of torture porn.
And as long as you go through the story assuming that people at their worst, under stress and behind closed doors, are somehow more the people they "really are" than the people they are under more norml conditions, the story continue not to make sense to you.
A lot of stories won't, tbh.
Maybe you should try trusting the author, like the story outright explicitly asks you to at several points. Because you clearly don't understand the why of what happened, if your assumption is that half the cast are monsters.
A lot of stories won't, tbh.
Maybe you should try trusting the author, like the story outright explicitly asks you to at several points. Because you clearly don't understand the why of what happened, if your assumption is that half the cast are monsters.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
It's almost like people aren't black or white and two-dimensional.
- Location
- Wellesley MA
I get what your going for, but you're asking me to trust the author that a half dozen people had really good reasons for independently becoming mass murderers while insisting that knowing which of them were driven to murdering their brothers and sisters isn't important and I should trust the author on that.
The premise is suspension of disbelief breaking, and by the half way point with 4 mysteries completed, I'm still being asked to suspend my disbelief as the fifth (or higher) culprit independently starts a rampage on the island.
The premise is suspension of disbelief breaking, and by the half way point with 4 mysteries completed, I'm still being asked to suspend my disbelief as the fifth (or higher) culprit independently starts a rampage on the island.
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
...OOOOOR that's not what the Author is asking at all, and you need to let go of those assumptions on what's actually happening.
Because really there's only the one culprit.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The thing is, the magic side always presents the humans in a good light, and if my suspicions so far are correct, at least half these people have to be monsters for the mundane half of the story to even make sense.
It's like the only reason there is a magical explanation at all is that Beatrice wants Battler to love his relatives and doesn't want him to believe all the awful truths about what they do and how they behave.
Like, I'm thinking the "why" behind 90% of the magical explanations comes down to "You have the most horrific family in Japan, here's a fiction about them that will be easier for you to swallow. Now swallow it already you damn brat."
Which is why the obviously fake magic scenes annoy me. And the obviously fake non-magical scenes. They're protecting me from just how ugly the whole thing is. They're hiding just how awful the people are by justifying all the behavior as reasonable and hiding the fact that some of them went around committing mass fratricide.
I'm getting the why, but I want to know the "what". What the hell are these people the story keeps protecting? How do they behave behind closed doors? I suppose if there was a good reason "why" that explains how these people are not inherently murderous people except that they have to be for some reason that would make sense to, you know, a normal person, it would be incredibly contrived, but it might at least convince me that the narrative isn't constantly covering up monsters in human form.
And no, I'm not very loving of this collection of murderous assholes no matter how good a light the narrative puts them in.
Maybe Lambdadelta will shine some light as I go through the second half, Ronove complained that she wasn't putting any heart into the game so we might actually see some of the ugly.
Also, 90% sure the point of the story is emotional torture porn. The best kind of torture porn.
Is Rosa the emotionally and physically abusive horrible person that she comes across in 1, 3, and 4, or is she a compassionate person that loves her daughter, but is in a really shitty situation that she can't escape and was raised in a horrible environment, as depicted in 2 and (also) 4?
Is Eva the controlling, manipulative, and arrogant brat that she comes across in 2 and (especially) 1, or is she a proud woman who just wants to live up to the family name and do her best to live up to the father that she's always admired, as seen in 3?
The answer is that both of these interpretations are correct. It isn't that these people are inherently "ugly" or irredeemable, it's that they're multifacted and complex characters. You can easily depict them as horrible, or you can depict them as virtuous. Both are defensible, because we all have positive and negative traits that can pop out in extremes at times. You're going to inherently be slanting the scale a bit and focusing on one side or the other, but that's always the case when we talk about a person and their character. The Ushiromiyas just have a starker contrast than is often the case, due to their rather extreme upbringings (typically) and personal circumstances and histories, as well as the situation they're thrown into.
I wouldn't say that the Magic side always presents the humans in a good light at all. The Magic side turns Eva into a monster that slaughters people for fun. In most cases it honestly (especially in the merely unreliable scenes) it more presents them as people, often with their worst or best sides amplified, just like the reliable scenes- I mean in 2 you have Rosa be supportive and protective in one scene, and then say things about the servants behind their back that sound like they're ripped straight from Beatrice's mouth. The only special case aside from extreme situations like Eva's is that you often see cooperation from the adults in the magic side against Beatrice, but it's pointless because she's always going to one-up them in the end, so what does it even matter?
It isn't just some paper-thin justification, it is adding color and nuance to the story. It's showing that you have to take the good with the bad, that you can read them as horrible, greedy, abusive people, but also as just flawed and compelling people too, with their own stories as to how they got the way they are. It all depends on what you want to take out of it.
Is Eva the controlling, manipulative, and arrogant brat that she comes across in 2 and (especially) 1, or is she a proud woman who just wants to live up to the family name and do her best to live up to the father that she's always admired, as seen in 3?
The answer is that both of these interpretations are correct. It isn't that these people are inherently "ugly" or irredeemable, it's that they're multifacted and complex characters. You can easily depict them as horrible, or you can depict them as virtuous. Both are defensible, because we all have positive and negative traits that can pop out in extremes at times. You're going to inherently be slanting the scale a bit and focusing on one side or the other, but that's always the case when we talk about a person and their character. The Ushiromiyas just have a starker contrast than is often the case, due to their rather extreme upbringings (typically) and personal circumstances and histories, as well as the situation they're thrown into.
I wouldn't say that the Magic side always presents the humans in a good light at all. The Magic side turns Eva into a monster that slaughters people for fun. In most cases it honestly (especially in the merely unreliable scenes) it more presents them as people, often with their worst or best sides amplified, just like the reliable scenes- I mean in 2 you have Rosa be supportive and protective in one scene, and then say things about the servants behind their back that sound like they're ripped straight from Beatrice's mouth. The only special case aside from extreme situations like Eva's is that you often see cooperation from the adults in the magic side against Beatrice, but it's pointless because she's always going to one-up them in the end, so what does it even matter?
It isn't just some paper-thin justification, it is adding color and nuance to the story. It's showing that you have to take the good with the bad, that you can read them as horrible, greedy, abusive people, but also as just flawed and compelling people too, with their own stories as to how they got the way they are. It all depends on what you want to take out of it.
- Location
- Wellesley MA
See, while it's true that they're deep and multifaceted characters,
Personal review: Umineko is painfully slow in telling you what on earth is actually going on and its fans insist that the actual events aren't important, which is a pity because it's really covering up the biggest flaw of Umineko: It's a mystery story that everyone keeps insisting isn't a mystery and shouldn't be approached as a mystery. This would be fine if it downplayed it's mystery elements like Higurashi, but Umineko does the exact opposite. It's constantly demanding its audience solve the mysteries of the island, making it a point of critical plot importance. You cannot take the "mystery" elements out of Umineko because it screams about being a mystery at the top of its lungs constantly and incessantly, but withholds the solutions to its mysteries 10 times longer and at least 4 stories longer than anything else written in the genre, until it gets to a point where its fans will tell me that the mystery isn't the important part.
It tries to have its cake and eat it too, and in doing so, is too much of a mystery to be read as a supernatural drama, while being a supernatural drama that tries its hardest to avoid ever cashing in on its mysteries, thus falling short on both goals. If you can ignore the witch quite literally screaming at you to solve the mystery portions of the story, which is very difficult sometimes, then you may enjoy this series for the many twists and turns this supernatural drama entails. It is one of the most twistiest, twisted supernatural dramas out there and some of the best emotional torture porn on the market with dozens of heartfelt moments of soul crushing despair and emotional trauma.
3 stars out of 4.
Most of them are also actively either committing murders, or acting as accomplices to the murders of their own family. I might have to upgrade that to being all of them as the story progresses.
Personal review: Umineko is painfully slow in telling you what on earth is actually going on and its fans insist that the actual events aren't important, which is a pity because it's really covering up the biggest flaw of Umineko: It's a mystery story that everyone keeps insisting isn't a mystery and shouldn't be approached as a mystery. This would be fine if it downplayed it's mystery elements like Higurashi, but Umineko does the exact opposite. It's constantly demanding its audience solve the mysteries of the island, making it a point of critical plot importance. You cannot take the "mystery" elements out of Umineko because it screams about being a mystery at the top of its lungs constantly and incessantly, but withholds the solutions to its mysteries 10 times longer and at least 4 stories longer than anything else written in the genre, until it gets to a point where its fans will tell me that the mystery isn't the important part.
It tries to have its cake and eat it too, and in doing so, is too much of a mystery to be read as a supernatural drama, while being a supernatural drama that tries its hardest to avoid ever cashing in on its mysteries, thus falling short on both goals. If you can ignore the witch quite literally screaming at you to solve the mystery portions of the story, which is very difficult sometimes, then you may enjoy this series for the many twists and turns this supernatural drama entails. It is one of the most twistiest, twisted supernatural dramas out there and some of the best emotional torture porn on the market with dozens of heartfelt moments of soul crushing despair and emotional trauma.
3 stars out of 4.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Again, uh... you REALLY don't seem to understand what's actually going on in the mysteries, because that's flat out not fucking true.
Ryukishi once said that there's three sides to Umineko: The Mystery, the Fantasy, and the Romance, and that the third dominates the other two.
And, well, he's completely correct. The other two narratives only exist so he can make points about the characters.
- Location
- Wellesley MA
Alright, I had a huge post typed up, but I realized that wouldn't get us anywhere, so I'm just going to say I respectfully disagree. Both with your assessment of the mysteries and with Ryukishi's own description of his story.
You're free to have that opinion, and he's free to say that, but neither statement is reconcilable with my own experience with the story.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Did you even finish Umineko? I know you bought the second half but that was really, really recently. Like, yesterday or the day before, right?
Like I just want to point out that for like your entire time voting in my one quest you've been operating on spoilers and like half the spoilers you mentioned were flat-out incorrect or misinterpreted, so I think you really just need to shake off your entire list of preconceptions. The novel's not at fault, otherwise.
Like I just want to point out that for like your entire time voting in my one quest you've been operating on spoilers and like half the spoilers you mentioned were flat-out incorrect or misinterpreted, so I think you really just need to shake off your entire list of preconceptions. The novel's not at fault, otherwise.
- Location
- Wellesley MA
...I have been?
If I have been, then I'm not aware of it. Besides the important one.
The only things that are certain are red text and things Battler actually sees.
I don't retract anything I've said though though. Because this stuff is the reason I read 400000 words into this doorstopper and stopped for like, 5 years. I have been, like, 10 times more forgiving of Umineko than literally any other piece of fiction I have ever read, almost entirely because of the mystery aspects.
The Umineko series is as long as the Harry Potter series but without any payoff at the end of each story. I've given these "books", "episodes", what ever you want to call them 4 times the chances of any other story I've ever read to date, and your quest is the sole reason I'm giving this thing a 5th chance with the 5th episode. This kind of thing is pretty much critical to noobies to the series, hence my review, otherwise they're just gonna get right into the story and end up as frustrated as I was. Well, probably not as frustrated, since I imagine most people stop after the second story when they realize none of the mysteries are going to get solved any time soon.
Or the 4th story, when none of the mysteries are solves yet and they are asked to buy a whole new game to get more of the same.
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I'll just say this, then. It is entirely possible to solve Umineko's first four episodes without spoilers or meta-knowledge. However, this is not what you are actually being tasked to do. Your job is not Battler's job.
- Location
- Wellesley MA
You're going to need to clarify to the newbies how to read this then. Any newbie reading Umineko is going to assume its a mystery novel, and calling it a romance won't make any sense during the first 4 games when it's all about Beatrice committing torture porn to Battler and his family over the mystery elements. You can get away with calling it fantasy, but the problem is Beatrice and Battler are constantly bringing the mystery elements to the forefront. Your red text is basically saying we should ignore the mystery elements, when those unresolved elements are the driving force of the plot for the entire first half.
Why shouldn't the others rage quit Umineko at the half-way paywall? I mean, that's what I did myself, after all.