Hard Enough - Pokemon SI

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
So, two Legendaries fighting each other and Team Rocket on the sidelines waiting to pounce (most likely with pokeball in hand, but it is also possible that they've done this as a large-scale distraction so they can give their response to the raids).
 
honestly, I thought this scheme was meant to get either Lance or Brock killed. it hadn't even occurred to me that they'd want to catch the Moltres but I don't think they'll succeed if they try
 
So Agatha & Koga went to a Rocket base and barely escaped.

MewTwo went on a Rampage & Attacked Moltrez the Legendary.

Will someone blame the Elite for the disaster?

Poking a Hornet nest. PR at its best.
 
Can Brock prove Team Rocket is to blame?

He knows it but does he have PROOF?

Enough at least to convince Koga and Agatha (when she wakes up) which is good because it should be enough to fully convince them Giovanni and Team Rocket need dealt with and can't be ignored. That's also a fight they'll lose with the gloves off especially since Steven Stone is in the area with his mega metagross since they can exploit the whole there was a spy that was both a Team Rocket and Team Magma member thing.

More generally it probably won't be easy but I think they can handle just this much Mewtwo is strong but so far has only been relying on vast psychic power as the only non psychic move it's used is recover. That means dark types like Titan and Empress should be able to get the win if it's the one that wins. Moltres is 4x weak to rock as well so well probably harder it should still be doable especially if they let the two of them whale on each other. The real difficulty though is likely to be when Team Rocket inevitably tries to swoop in when they are all tired.

The scene with Moltres really drives home that these are MOTHERFUCKING LEGENDARY POKEMON and not just really powerful Pokemon. We never really see the power disparity in the Anime (except kinda with Mewtwo) but this is the kind of shit that really does hammer home the point that the legendaries were worshiped as gods. Then of course there's the fact that we, rather horrifyingly, know that Moltres is actually on the low end of the power scale for a legendary. With that thought I can only shudder at what even a pissed off mid-tier legendary could do, let alone an unrestrained Dialga, Palkia or Giratina.

We do though even discounting the movies and specials there's things like Tobias, Brandon, Nekrozma, the big plots of Team Galactic and Flare and a ton of lesser things like how in the battle frontier Ash's Charizard had such a hard time beating Articuno despite the type advantage. If we do count them then we get to add things like Arceus beating Dialga, Palkia and Giratina all at once or the mega evolution specials and how they showed megas were really strong but even they struggled against the primals and mega Rayquazia.
 
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So, two Legendaries fighting each other and Team Rocket on the sidelines waiting to pounce (most likely with pokeball in hand, but it is also possible that they've done this as a large-scale distraction so they can give their response to the raids).
Team Rocket could be doing both as a xanatos gambit where Giovanni benefits no matter what the outcome is. All forces that can challenge them like the rangers, police, gym leaders, pokemon league, ect. won't be able to deal with the legendary fight and a simultaneous crime wave. He'll either succeed at both objectives or only fail one while accomplishing the other.
 
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Staff Notice under Rule 2: Don't Be Hateful
So, is it finally time to take things seriously and start killing Team Rocket grunts and Giovani? Or are we still pretending it is a children video game world.
 
Brock: Alright, Sabrina, this is a long shot, but I need you to find a very specific purple-haired member of Team Rocket, stuff him in a Moltres costume, and bring him back here.

Sabrina: ...

Brock: Look, there is no good ending with a plan to actually fight in this, so we may as well consider our options.
 
If Giovanni is going after Moltres to catch it with a master ball, and not just showing off Mewtwo and causing untold destruction while hoping Lance and Brock bite it, then he's likely going after all 3 legendary birds. For a complete set. And because Ash is the chosen one, he might just be there at the last bird being caught (probably Articuno, both counting backwards in Spanish and it's on the way to Cinnabar from Fuschia if it's still on the seafoam islands), which will lead him and his friends getting involved.
 
If Giovanni is going after Moltres to catch it with a master ball, and not just showing off Mewtwo and causing untold destruction while hoping Lance and Brock bite it, then he's likely going after all 3 legendary birds. For a complete set. And because Ash is the chosen one, he might just be there at the last bird being caught (probably Articuno, both counting backwards in Spanish and it's on the way to Cinnabar from Fuschia if it's still on the seafoam islands), which will lead him and his friends getting involved.
I don't think Giovanni knew about Moltres, he just had enough information to think that there might be something powerful was living on that mountain and sent Mewtwo to find and capture whatever it was. The only reason Brock and the handful of professors he told know about the legendary birds is because he found that ancient mural carved into the wall of Empress's cave, something no one else in living memory could have seen.
 
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It's called Operation Burning Mountain though. If Giovanni didn't know Moltres was on Mt Silver, that's a heck of a coincidence. It would also be a heck of a gamble considering all of the damage done.

Now granted, perhaps he didn't know Moltres, specifically, was up there. Perhaps he thought it was some other powerful fire type.

But we mostly know Brock's pov. We have no idea the extent of resources or information Giovanni holds.
 
It's called Operation Burning Mountain though. If Giovanni didn't know Moltres was on Mt Silver, that's a heck of a coincidence. It would also be a heck of a gamble considering all of the damage done.

Now granted, perhaps he didn't know Moltres, specifically, was up there. Perhaps he thought it was some other powerful fire type.

But we mostly know Brock's pov. We have no idea the extent of resources or information Giovanni holds.
If you're right about Giovanni knowing it was Moltres, that has some unfortunate implications. The only way I could see him knowing that detail is if he had access to information only those professors would know. Maybe there are undercover Team Rocket members working as lab assistants for one or more of them to steal information?
 
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If you're right about Giovanni knowing it was Moltres, that has some unfortunate implications. The only way I could see him knowing that detail is if he had access to information only those professors would know. Maybe there are undercover Team Rocket members working as lab assistants for one or more of them to steal information?
That's... Yeah, I can see that happening. Not every rocket member is in uniform 24/7, and Giovanni undoubtedly has informants everywhere. It's possible there was a leak somewhere. I wouldn't guess Oak, so perhaps Elm's place?

Guess we'll find out. Really hoping Kanto isn't like an info sieve to Giovanni.
 
More generally it probably won't be easy but I think they can handle just this much Mewtwo is strong but so far has only been relying on vast psychic power as the only non psychic move it's used is recover. That means dark types like Titan and Empress should be able to get the win if it's the one that wins.
From what I know, Miracle Eye is a move Mewtwo can know, which lets them hit Dark Types with Psychic moves. Dark Types haven't been used against Mewtwo yet, so we don't know if they have it, but it would make sense that they do. And if they do, a Dark Type actually wouldn't be the best at resisting Psychic attacks, as Miracle Eye makes them neutral. Weirdly, the Pokémon that would be the most resistant to Mewtwos Psychic attacks would be a Psychic/Steel Type… wait...
 
From what I know, Miracle Eye is a move Mewtwo can know, which lets them hit Dark Types with Psychic moves. Dark Types haven't been used against Mewtwo yet, so we don't know if they have it, but it would make sense that they do. And if they do, a Dark Type actually wouldn't be the best at resisting Psychic attacks, as Miracle Eye makes them neutral. Weirdly, the Pokémon that would be the most resistant to Mewtwos Psychic attacks would be a Psychic/Steel Type… wait...

I highly doubt Mewtwo has miracle eye. That's a move that didn't exist till gen 7 which means it was impossible to have for many of Mewtwo's appearances and this fic has only the first 3 regions officially with some stuff from the 4th under the table plus one gen 5 fossil. While gen 7 stuff including miracle eye does exist it's because Brock knew about them and set them up and Sabrina the extremely powerful psychic from the psychic gym spent years working on it.

Mewtwo is still very young and under team rocket's control as seen in the battle where it was broadly going for throwing power around. It's highly unlikely Team Rocket knows that move even exists to be able to teach it and if they did actually know it they probably wouldn't teach it to Mewtwo anyway so they could use dark types if they ever needed to go against it. Frankly if such a thing were to happen it would be way more believable that Mewtwo didn't know it but read it from Sabrina or one of her pokemon's minds and dark types would still be useful because dark moves would still be super effective.
 
From what I know, Miracle Eye is a move Mewtwo can know, which lets them hit Dark Types with Psychic moves. Dark Types haven't been used against Mewtwo yet, so we don't know if they have it, but it would make sense that they do. And if they do, a Dark Type actually wouldn't be the best at resisting Psychic attacks, as Miracle Eye makes them neutral. Weirdly, the Pokémon that would be the most resistant to Mewtwos Psychic attacks would be a Psychic/Steel Type… wait...
I mean more generally Mewtwo is a legendary. Outside of a dark type legendary or the absolute best of the best non-legendary dark types I doubt he needs miracle eye.
 
I highly doubt Mewtwo has miracle eye. That's a move that didn't exist till gen 7 which means it was impossible to have for many of Mewtwo's appearances and this fic has only the first 3 regions officially with some stuff from the 4th under the table plus one gen 5 fossil. While gen 7 stuff including miracle eye does exist it's because Brock knew about them and set them up and Sabrina the extremely powerful psychic from the psychic gym spent years working on it.

Mewtwo is still very young and under team rocket's control as seen in the battle where it was broadly going for throwing power around. It's highly unlikely Team Rocket knows that move even exists to be able to teach it and if they did actually know it they probably wouldn't teach it to Mewtwo anyway so they could use dark types if they ever needed to go against it. Frankly if such a thing were to happen it would be way more believable that Mewtwo didn't know it but read it from Sabrina or one of her pokemon's minds and dark types would still be useful because dark moves would still be super effective.
I'm sorry, but Miracle Eye was introduced in Gen 4, not Gen 7. Also, Mewtwo was made to be the strongest Pokémon, so it could've been naturally given to it during creation. The failsafe they have is the armor, they wouldn't purposely weaken their strongest weapon unless only them can use the means of controlling it. And while I agree Dark Type moves would be effective, so would Bug Type moves. Dark Types are effective against most Psychic Types, but not a select few; I.E. Mewtwo. Since this is an Anime setting, power scaling is thrown out he window. There is not an easy solution to deal with a legendary, and Mewtwo has already done the impossible with Recovering from a Destiny Bond. Besides, I think a Metagross can learn a Dark move or two.

Edit: Also, Mewtwo's Signature Move, Psystrike, was introduced in Gen 5. Does that mean this Mewtwo doesn't have Psystrike?
 
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Given all this talk on Miracle Eye, all you have to do is visit the Bulbapedia page and see that Mewtwo can naturally learn it in at least one of the generations. So it's fair game.

/plus
//I think throwing in Gen numbers is not appropriate for this story
///given the fact that Brock has an Alolan Golem
 
I'm sorry, but Miracle Eye was introduced in Gen 4, not Gen 7. Also, Mewtwo was made to be the strongest Pokémon, so it could've been naturally given to it during creation. The failsafe they have is the armor, they wouldn't purposely weaken their strongest weapon unless only them can use the means of controlling it. And while I agree Dark Type moves would be effective, so would Bug Type moves. Dark Types are effective against most Psychic Types, but not a select few; I.E. Mewtwo. Since this is an Anime setting, power scaling is thrown out he window. There is not an easy solution to deal with a legendary, and Mewtwo has already done the impossible with Recovering from a Destiny Bond. Besides, I think a Metagross can learn a Dark move or two.

Edit: Also, Mewtwo's Signature Move, Psystrike, was introduced in Gen 5. Does that mean this Mewtwo doesn't have Psystrike?

That doesn't really change it tho because gen 4 is still after gen 3. Additionally, I'll repeat Sabrina is the Psychic type gym leader from a family of psychic trainers and she didn't know about miracle eye and had to work it out from Brock knowing it was possible that means it is not common knowledge so it is still likely team rocket doesn't know about it at all much less know how to use it.

You also seem to be taking the odd stance they would only ever have 1 failsafe or contingency despite extolling Mewtwo's power. Not teaching miracle eye if they know how also doesn't really fall under purposely weakening it since it's a move Mewtwo would have to learn because assuming they can just create Mewtwo capable of it is a bit much. It also gets into things like pokemon having limits to the number of moves they can use decently along with it being possible the training is incomplete.

Dark type pokemon are also going to be more useful here because of the fact they have 2 very strong Tyranitars right there and STAB is a thing while neither of them have bug types since Gawain got left behind. I also specifically said that it wouldn't be easy and that those two could probably get the win if Mewtwo manages to beat Moltres because if that happens it's going to cost energy (it knowing recover makes injuries pointless unless it goes down or gets something like a burn).

Yes I would also say this one doesn't have Psystrike because of how just like miracle eye the actual Kanto one from the movie, anime and games didn't have it as opposed to the movie 16 one that does and this one has been throwing power around as it's strategy.
 
It's called Operation Burning Mountain
This doesn't actually necessarily mean that Giovanni knows about Moltres being on Mt Silver, instead it could be taken to mean that Giovanni's forces are both literally and metaphorically set the mountain on fire.

That said, he could actually know about Moltres being there since in the scene where Brock was talking to Oak about the mural, Oak all but admitted he already knew about Moltres. This means that the higher level rangers likely know in order to help stop people pissing off said Moltres since Oak isn't stupid enough not to let the right people know. With that it might even be a somewhat open secret among the higher echelons of the Kanto/Johto leagues as a bid to avoid pissing off the legendary. Unfortunately we won't know until (or even if) Viva confirms this.
 
This doesn't actually necessarily mean that Giovanni knows about Moltres being on Mt Silver, instead it could be taken to mean that Giovanni's forces are both literally and metaphorically set the mountain on fire.

That said, he could actually know about Moltres being there since in the scene where Brock was talking to Oak about the mural, Oak all but admitted he already knew about Moltres. This means that the higher level rangers likely know in order to help stop people pissing off said Moltres since Oak isn't stupid enough not to let the right people know. With that it might even be a somewhat open secret among the higher echelons of the Kanto/Johto leagues as a bid to avoid pissing off the legendary. Unfortunately we won't know until (or even if) Viva confirms this.
Oh yes, it could easily mean that as well. I suspect it's a double meaning, however. Explosions plus a fiery legendary lighting up the mountain range.

As for why I believe this, I'll explain more in depth, and then leave this debate be. But first, a quick quote from that chapter.
Not even Madame Bossue would have a true accounting of all of the assets Giovanni planned to use. Let her focus on the disruption and capture of rare and powerful pokemon on the outskirts. Let profits blind her.

Giovanni was going to aim his sights elsewhere.
Giovanni is after something more than mere profits and rare wild pokemon, like his mother. He's using more assets than anyone will ever know of, putting a number of eggs into one basket. He's betting big, and is confident it'll pay off (and not in any monetary value). So he wants something big. Something more than what can be captured on Mt Silver. Larger than pseudo legendaries like tyranitar.

Let me repeat that: Giovanni does not care about the tyranitar/pupitar/larvitar line that have made their homes on Mt. Silver and are pretty much at the top of food chain around there. If he did, he would have avoided destroying Empress's nest, and instead attempted to capture her or at least take her eggs. Instead, the nest was destroyed. The toughest tyranitar on the Mt. Silver range, and he opted to carelessly destroy her unhatched children. They mean nothing to him. And it's not as if her territory is unknown either. Her nest being a casualty was deemed an acceptable loss. Meaning he wants something else worth painting a bright red target on his back that every Elite rank trainer and gym leader in Kanto and Johto will be aiming at. Thus: a true legendary.

As for why I believe Giovanni is confident in specifically capturing Moltres, it was said earlier on that Silph Co. was pushing to have a corporate sponsored gym. That ended up being Neon Town (City? It's called both interchangeably). The new gym leader is Grey, the man who very obviously stuck to and looked to Giovanni during the Kanto gym leader meeting. When pushing Daniel for info on where other Team Rocket locations were, he had tells for a few locations, including Neon Town.

Silph Co. created the Master Ball.

Giovanni's connection to Silph Co. would grant him access to the most perfect pokeball ever created. And what better to use it on than a force of nature incarnate, a legendary? All the while he gets to show off the most powerful psychic pokemon in the world and "correct some slights", cementing his status as practically untouchable.

Anyways. Addressing the bit about Prof. Oak knowing already. I re-read the chapter, and he says that Moltres are usually at THE top of the food chain, but I can't see any evidence of him knowing one was up there prior to Brock's photos.

(Side note, I feel like Oak used Aura when saying to get out. Not surprising, but it's a neat detail what effect his words had.)

Brock also showed Crowley and his assistant Jennifer the photos, and Doctor Eve was contacted to get involved (who had already contributed to the Pewter Museum with matching ancient tribal findings). Unsure where the leak may have come from, but there are multiple points where the info could have been obtained from.
 
First off, Miracle Eye is learned naturally by Mewtwo. This means that, by anime logic, it could already be learned, but just isn't being used. As I said, it's a Legendary Pokémon, something that defies the limits of this world. Who said it even has a move limit? Also, don't forget that Mewtwo is a super genius, the strongest psychic. Who's to say Mewtwo hasn't just figured out how to use Miracle Eye on its own? Im not saying that Team Rocket taught it the move, just that Mewtwo seems smart enough to figure it out itself.

Second off, I said that having such a failsafe would be counterproductive, as their goal was to create the strongest Pokémon, but let's say that it wasn't given Miracle Eye at birth. Since they don't know about Miracle Eye, Team Rocket only sees Dark Types as an unfortunate weakness and emergency failsafe. As I said above, Mewtwo could have simply figured out the move on its own. The armor is both a psychic training and restraining device, so while some aspects are improved, others remain restricted, so it might have honed Mewtwo's psychic control to a level where it can be used on Dark Types.

But yes, I do agree that STAB is a factor, as is using Dark Type moves. I'm just saying that, defensively, if my above statement is correct, it's worse than a Psychic/Steel Pokémon. Attacking is a whole different story, but if it's a brawl between a Mewtwo who only knows Psychic moves and a champion level Metagross with an advanced movepool, I'd put my money on the Metagross.

Also, yes, the original Mewtwo did, in fact, use Psystrike. Here is a video of it destroying the lab, where it surrounds itself in a force field that pushes people away and then explodes its surroundings.
Original Mewtwo

And here is a picture of the newer Mewtwo using the move.
M16 Mewtwo

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. The description of the Anime's Psystrike is, "The user creates a force field which explodes at the opponent." Even if the name isn't said, we know what it is. Theres even theories that Psystrike was based on the original movies Mewtwo!
 
First off, Miracle Eye is learned naturally by Mewtwo. This means that, by anime logic, it could already be learned, but just isn't being used. As I said, it's a Legendary Pokémon, something that defies the limits of this world. Who said it even has a move limit? Also, don't forget that Mewtwo is a super genius, the strongest psychic. Who's to say Mewtwo hasn't just figured out how to use Miracle Eye on its own? Im not saying that Team Rocket taught it the move, just that Mewtwo seems smart enough to figure it out itself.

Second off, I said that having such a failsafe would be counterproductive, as their goal was to create the strongest Pokémon, but let's say that it wasn't given Miracle Eye at birth. Since they don't know about Miracle Eye, Team Rocket only sees Dark Types as an unfortunate weakness and emergency failsafe. As I said above, Mewtwo could have simply figured out the move on its own. The armor is both a psychic training and restraining device, so while some aspects are improved, others remain restricted, so it might have honed Mewtwo's psychic control to a level where it can be used on Dark Types.

But yes, I do agree that STAB is a factor, as is using Dark Type moves. I'm just saying that, defensively, if my above statement is correct, it's worse than a Psychic/Steel Pokémon. Attacking is a whole different story, but if it's a brawl between a Mewtwo who only knows Psychic moves and a champion level Metagross with an advanced movepool, I'd put my money on the Metagross.

Also, yes, the original Mewtwo did, in fact, use Psystrike. Here is a video of it destroying the lab, where it surrounds itself in a force field that pushes people away and then explodes its surroundings.
Original Mewtwo

And here is a picture of the newer Mewtwo using the move.
M16 Mewtwo

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. The description of the Anime's Psystrike is, "The user creates a force field which explodes at the opponent." Even if the name isn't said, we know what it is. Theres even theories that Psystrike was based on the original movies Mewtwo!

Miracle Eye is only learnt by Mewtwo naturally after gen 4. You also can't use anime logic here because pokemon has an anime and the pokemon anime doesn't work like that. In it pokemon do naturally learn a few moves as they train but that's the key part it's only a few and normally they need to train to learn new moves because learning naturally is very random and sparse.

Let's take Ash's Treecko as an example. Aside from the moves it started with which were Pound and Quick Attack it learned Bullet Seed through coaching and training but that's all as a Treecko because it's next move was Leaf Blade gained from evolving into Grovyle and didn't learn any more moves until evolving into Sceptile and naturally learning Solar Beam. Bulbapedia also seems to count the ride the wind thing as Agility which seems iffy when the move was never called or used again but is more of a learned through training thing anyway. When it came back in Sinnoh it had picked up Leaf Storm. To summarise it went through the Hoenn circuit and then the Battle Frontier starting as a low lv Treecko and ending as one of Ash's strongest Pokemon but in that time only naturally learned 1 move with a possible second during the time Ash went through Sinnoh. Compare that to the game logic you are claiming with the big move lists and you'll see a big difference.

I doubt Mewtwo has looked into technical stuff based on how it battled and it is still very young so given this it's highly unlikely it has more than 1 naturally learned move and even less like it's miracle eye. It also hasn't shown to be a super genius. Additionally, while it did do something similar to Psystrike aside from being far more unrefined it isn't listed officially as Psystrike so at best I'll accept that at a point later on than when this fic is it uses the first hints of what would become Psystrike.

why are people saying that Miracle eye doesn't exist yet when Sabrina had all of her pokemon use it in literally this chapter?

People aren't what is being said is that the knowledge they have of what's available is broadly limited to gen 3 for example Tangrowth and Mamoswine not being known to be possible until Brock dropped meta knowledge despite these being from knowing a move instead of using an item like Magmortar. Sabrina has it because as I said several times Brock told her it exists and she worked on it for years until she worked it out. Note that not only is she the psychic type gym leader and an exceptional psychic herself but her family is also psychic type specialists who were the psychic type gym leaders before her and yet she had no idea miracle eye was possible until Brock told her. That means as has been repeatedly said it isn't common knowledge and notably there has been more general chatter about megas than it. Due to this as I have said multiple times it is possible Team Rocket don't even know it exists.
 
I have a few questions related to both the story and SmashQueen's post. While the games have "The Master Ball" as infallible even on legendaries, in this story the various game and anime logic seems more...muted, or perhaps i should say grounded, than in the canon media. As such I'm thinking that the way a Pokeball works is by creating a connection between the trainer's aura and the Pokemon's while effectively allowing the trainer's aura to overwhelm the target's allowing for the capture so long as the Pokemon has been sufficiently weakened. Then we have the specialty balls which presumably amplifies the trainer's aura thus making it easier to capture the Pokemon. Finally we have the supposedly perfect Master Ball which likely simply gives the user the highest level of aura amplification currently possible allowing them to, again supposedly, capture any Pokemon nigh effortlessly.

But, do we really think it'll work on an actual Legendary as shown by Viva? I'm kinda doubtful tbh. Viva is describing a Moltres, one of the lowest ranked legendary Pokemon, as essentially being a force of nature incarnate. What hope does a human realistically have of overwhelming the aura of a fully grown legendary Pokemon, even with the amplification of a Master Ball, unless said legendary is basically at death's door.

Next question, can Mewtwo beat Moltres? Ehhh, maybe imo. He does have plenty of raw power but Moltres has plenty of power of his (or her I'm not judging) own and presumably centuries of experience battling other Pokemon, both regular and legendary. Either way this is NOT going to be any kind of easy fight for Mewtwo.

A slightly better question might be: can Mewtwo beat Moltres WITHOUT killing them? This would have to be the several billion Pokedollar question and I'm thinking: no. Mewtwo has a hell of a lot of raw power and in order to beat Moltres they're going to have to use a lot of that power and since Mewtwo doesn't exactly have a lot (or any really) of finesse the odds are pretty darn low.

This is likely to leave all of the players in a very nasty situation and I know how I'm hoping it turns out but we'll just have to wait and see what Viva has in store for us.
 
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