Halkegenia Online Thread 6 - //"Pixies!"\\

On another note, considering how much early capital and ideas will be atleast partially controlled by the Faerie. And how basic and simple the over all economy for industry is right now. It certainly would make some sense to initially use a type of controlled economic system, as this will let you control more factors as well as progress more efficiently to the next step in development. It might also help let you set some standards on how to deal with workers early on.


Looking at this from a different angle the Faerie should be the foremost experts in technology and for a long time will pretty much utterly dominate, Research, Development and Capital investments. There they can quickly obsolete for some time old processes at what seems virtually at will and thus run the most competitive branches, this means they should get to set a lot of the standards of behaviour. Competing with out support of Faerie engineers, specialists, etc will for a long time probably be very hard indeed.

This should mean they'll impart a substantial imprint of their cultural values on how manufacturing should be run and setup, including how to treat the workers. Once this gains a critical mass, trying to run a robber baron style theme might become substantially harder, as you are now attacking a well entrenched and funded culture of workers.

Combined with the increased education needed once you start reaching some of the higher tech levels, like say late 19th Century. This should hopefully be enough to keep the government from not atleast some what supporting the workers in future conflicts with large capital holders. (Especially as the Faerie should be some what responsible for setting up the modern bureaucracy and its standards in the first place, as well.... that too will have been one of their ideas one expects)


I guess this isn't really a perfect solution, but it's something atleast.

-----------------------------------

I think another big question as offered up by Screwball is, is how large a conflict with the nobility they'll eventually develop. As Screwball noted, there could be a fair deal of conflict in that after all. Though it may not turn out quite as bad as he postulates there. At times once the central state is strong enough, further nobility has been declawed in more peaceful manners.

Taxing the holding of land for instance, which thus gets you to free up a lot of noble land over time, as it isn't worthwhile or affordable to hold as much any more. In this regard the exact position between the Faerie and the central state can also be renegotiated over time as needed, rather then using a violent solution. It's even possible that in such negotiations the central state is willing to make some concessions, as the Faerie are effectively an extremely important strategic resource. Their knowledge and drive in science and technology knows no equal after all, so trying to keep them happy a bit wouldn't be unusual. (For instance the state might also make some reforms to its own laws, in return for reduced autonomy, it might even see advantages in making those reforms at times)
 
Quickshot0 said:
That's a horribly weak argument, especially as a random energy system isn't responsible for creating the Faerie, and we have many examples in the transition where the simplest available path wasn't used. (Nor the energy cheapest)

There your basic argument is false, that means your entire line of logic has no foundation and probably as such also false.

As such, I don't see the problem. Doubly so as with in nature such variations have developed as required and Industrialization has failed to harm them as you suggest. So I even have positive evidence supporting my point.
Would you like if I instead pointed out that Cardinal the one providing the templates for the Fae bodies wouldn't have had access to any of the information needed to create custom molecules or biological functions?
Screwball said:
Generally speaking, the founding of new cities in this sort of social setup requires some sort of royal charter or permission, so presumably any such extension of Fae laws would be written into said charter (or not, as the case may be). It'd probably be case by case, basically.
That sounds very dangerous, it would mean Tristian risks being devoured from the inside by Fae cities.



[quote="Archons, post: 11070184, member: 282489"With that in mind, the vast majority of the Fae are Japanese in origin. That means that they will in all likelihood be predisposed to some form of universal health coverage. End of story.[/quote]

*Puts on noble hat* Then they can be the ones who pay for it and provide the mages.
 
Quickshot0 said:
That's a horribly weak argument, especially as a random energy system isn't responsible for creating the Faerie, and we have many examples in the transition where the simplest available path wasn't used. (Nor the energy cheapest)

There your basic argument is false, that means your entire line of logic has no foundation and probably as such also false.

As such, I don't see the problem. Doubly so as with in nature such variations have developed as required and Industrialization has failed to harm them as you suggest. So I even have positive evidence supporting my point.
Would you like if I instead pointed out that Cardinal the one providing the templates for the Fae bodies wouldn't have had access to any of the information needed to create custom molecules or biological functions?
Screwball said:
Generally speaking, the founding of new cities in this sort of social setup requires some sort of royal charter or permission, so presumably any such extension of Fae laws would be written into said charter (or not, as the case may be). It'd probably be case by case, basically.
That sounds very dangerous, it would mean Tristian risks being devoured from the inside by Fae cities.

Archons said:
Taxing the holding of land for instance, which thus gets you to free up a lot of noble land over time, as it isn't worthwhile or affordable to hold as much any more.
The state owning all the land and then being able to take it away from people is a modern fixture that the Fae should really avoid.
 
Vaermina said:
Would you like if I instead pointed out that Cardinal the one providing the templates for the Fae bodies wouldn't have had access to any of the information needed to create custom molecules or biological functions?
That would be a rather futile argument as well I imagine, some of that kind of information is even now known with in science publications. Obviously this will be only more so in 2025. (And yes this includes things like differences in biochemistry to improve oxygen uptake)

And considering all the rather impressive work that Cardinal managed in making the many mobs, which are of far greater complexity and scale then this trifling modification, I think I'd have had to ask you to prove your rather bold claim of sudden ineptitude in this particular function. But there I already showed above, that your position doesn't even hold up to basic scrutiny, we can probably skip that.

Though if by some chance you do find some kind of loophole to continue, I ask you immediately also answer why Cardinal suddenly is incompetent in this one issue, while happily making complex new biology elsewhere. Preferably a well thought out one, as your last two propositions were horrifically weak, and didn't even pass a basic review of their fundamentals.
 
Vaermina said:
[quote="Archons, post: 11070184, member: 282489"With that in mind, the vast majority of the Fae are Japanese in origin. That means that they will in all likelihood be predisposed to some form of universal health coverage. End of story.
*Puts on noble hat* Then they can be the ones who pay for it and provide the mages.[/quote]

Yep, I'm sure handing them that will in no way deepen the commoners love for the Fae. Thus giving them even more power. Especially the Undine.
 
Vaermina said:
The state owning all the land and then being able to take it away from people is a modern fixture that the Fae should really avoid.
Per the fic, it's already the prevailing legal fiction. If the state becomes strong and centralized it will become legal fact by default.
Quickshot0 said:
This. If the Fae decide to go with co-ops and/or strong worker protection and/or environmentalism then those things will stick pretty much by path dependence.
 
Quickshot0 said:
That would be a rather futile argument as well I imagine, some of that kind of information is even now known with in science publications. Obviously this will be only more so in 2025. (And yes this includes things like differences in biochemistry to improve oxygen uptake)

And considering all the rather impressive work that Cardinal managed in making the many mobs, which are of far greater complexity and scale then this trifling modification, I think I'd have had to ask you to prove your rather bold claim of sudden ineptitude in this particular function. But there I already showed above, that your position doesn't even hold up to basic scrutiny, we can probably skip that.

Though if by some chance you do find some kind of loophole to continue, I ask you immediately also answer why Cardinal suddenly is incompetent in this one issue, while happily making complex new biology elsewhere. Preferably a well thought out one, as your last two propositions were horrifically weak, and didn't even pass a basic review of their fundamentals.
Okay then, link me the human adapted molecule's and biological structures.
Anzer'ke said:
Yep, I'm sure handing them that will in no way deepen the commoners love for the Fae. Thus giving them even more power. Especially the Undine.
Except as I pointed out it will be under the nobles command which will allow them to take the credit for the good and place the blame on the Fae for the bad. Just like in RL where companies get the thanks for providing health care while the doctors and the ones who picked them out are the ones getting sued if something goes wrong.
Aranfan said:
Per the fic, it's already the prevailing legal fiction. If the state becomes strong and centralized it will become legal fact by default.
Not yet it isn't.
 
Vaermina said:
Chapter 6.1:
"Sir Visbee?" The Duchess Valliere asked. The normally silent Sir Visbee, scholar of Law, who had been retained for the negotiations looked over his notes and then to the gathered delegations. "Legally speaking, the landed Nobility are the stewards of the Crown's lands. This amounts to defacto ownership of the land, though mineral rights are obviously still held by the crown."
 
Vaermina said:
Okay then, link me the human adapted molecule's and biological structures.

Except as I pointed out it will be under the nobles command which will allow them to take the credit for the good and place the blame on the Fae for the bad. Just like in RL where companies get the thanks for providing health care while the doctors and the ones who picked them out are the ones getting sued if something goes wrong.
Ok.
Tibetans are phenotypically diverse. Recent research into the ability of Tibetans' metabolism to function normally in the oxygen-deficient atmosphere above 4,400 metres (14,400 ft)[11][12][13][14] shows that, although Tibetans living at high altitudes have no more oxygen in their blood than other people, they have 10 times more nitric oxide and double the forearm blood flow of low-altitude dwellers. Nitric oxide causes dilation of blood vessels allowing blood to flow more freely to the extremities and aids the release of oxygen to tissues. It is not known whether the high levels of nitric oxide are due to a genetic mutation or whether people from lower altitudes would gradually adapt similarly after living for prolonged periods at high altitudes.
That good enough?

Um...how on earth would that work? The Fae would be the ones doing the healing and paying for it. At what point do the nobles become the face of this operation? Especially if they aren't willing to associate themselves with it incase it fails. They cannot just magically take the credit, they have to have an association.
Also please don't cite the modern american healthcare system as a comparison to this idea of the Fae setting up healthcare for everyone in Halk. There's very little beyond the very broadest of comparisons here.
 
Vaermina said:
That's for the nobles we are talking about the Fae in this case.
The fae government holds land under the same rules as nobles.
"Sir Visbee?" The Duchess Valliere asked. The normally silent Sir Visbee, scholar of Law, who had been retained for the negotiations looked over his notes and then to the gathered delegations. "Legally speaking, the landed Nobility are the stewards of the Crown's lands. This amounts to defacto ownership of the land, though mineral rights are obviously still held by the crown."

"Obviously." Lord Mortimer murmured.

"The Gnomes won't care for that." Lady Sakuya added before nodding for Visbee to continue.

"Addressing your concerns, My Lady, the landholder holds the right to appoint members of the local jury and to select the sentencing in petty crimes in addition to holding a seat in any gathering of the High Nobility."

"That might work." Lady Sakuya said thoughtfully. "But there is still the matter that we act as elected officials, despite our titles."

"Again with your praise for that idiot system." Count Woestte grumbled, receiving a slight narrowing of the eyes from Lord Mortimer.

"It's imperfect." Lady Sakuya agreed. "But it is what our people know."

"I've actually taken the liberty to review the legal records." Sir Visbee added. "And, with the blessings of the Crown, it is in fact possible to appoint a council to serve in indefinite regency over an estate. It isn't used frequently, and I'm afraid the legal precedent is rather vague, but it is up to the Crown's discretion in how the council is selected. I confess it would be a complicated solution for various legal reasons. But I believe this would allow you to have your elected officials defacto if not dejure."
 
Vaermina said:
The Fae government hasn't even set down any laws yet, so no they don't. The only thing that that is saying is that the Fae as a racial group own the land.
It explicitly says that the fae as a collective hold land in the same way that nobles do. The legal fiction of the Crown owning all the land is already there, and will become legal fact the more centralized and powerful the Tristain government becomes.
 
You know... I kind of feel sorry for TH for the way this thread exploded about economics and such...
 
NecroMechanoid said:
Legal Fiction! What's the point of having such a law if it can't be enforced? What was the mindset back then?
Same as now? IRL Charlemange or some other conqueror took all the land and did own it and could enforce it, but then they died and the people who were "stewards" for the lands they couldn't manage themselves directly grew powerful enough to say no to the conqueror's descendants.
 
Anzer'ke said:
Ok.

That good enough?
No, I asked for the biological designs needed to produce those things in humans. Because he claimed that Cardinal would have access to them over the internet.

Also that technique likely wouldn't work for the Fae given their higher metabolism, the nitric oxide levels would be toxic.
Um...how on earth would that work? The Fae would be the ones doing the healing and paying for it. At what point do the nobles become the face of this operation? Especially if they aren't willing to associate themselves with it incase it fails. They cannot just magically take the credit, they have to have an association.
Also please don't cite the modern american healthcare system as a comparison to this idea of the Fae setting up healthcare for everyone in Halk. There's very little beyond the very broadest of comparisons here.
And who is allowing the Fae to do this out of the goodness of their hearts, oh right the nobles.
Aranfan said:
It explicitly says that the fae as a collective hold land in the same way that nobles do. The legal fiction of the Crown owning all the land is already there, and will become legal fact the more centralized and powerful the Tristain government becomes.
The Fae as a collective is all the Fae, which means they all own the land. The only thing that is going to matter at this point is going to be the Fae laws regarding land ownership.
 
Vaermina said:
The Fae as a collective is all the Fae, which means they all own the land. The only thing that is going to matter at this point is going to be the Fae laws regarding land ownership.
De facto yes. De jure the eventual fae government is an interim council managing the lands in stewardship for the crown, in the same sort of way that nobles are stewarding their land for the crown.
 
NecroMechanoid said:
Hmmm. That actually makes for an interesting loophole.
Oh there are a stupid amount of loopholes in that treaty.

For instance they could all get themselves landed noble status by expanding the faction leader positions to the point where everyone could hold the positions simultaneously.
 
Personally I can't wait till the first criminal tries to hide from Tristian law in one of the Fae cities because of the giant political shit storm that will kick up.
 
Vaermina said:
Personally I can't wait till the first criminal tries to hide from Tristian law in one of the Fae cities because of the giant political shit storm that will kick up.
What makes you think there isn't already a specific legal framework written to deal with such situations? One with specifics regarding the nature of the crime, the status of the criminal...
 
biigoh said:
You know... I kind of feel sorry for TH for the way this thread exploded about economics and such...
He did kinda ask for it.


edit:
Vaermina said:
The Fae as a collective is all the Fae, which means they all own the land. The only thing that is going to matter at this point is going to be the Fae laws regarding land ownership.
I'm not seeing your point here. He's saying that the fae government looks over the land for the crown. This is true. You're saying that the fae have yet to lay down rules on how that land is managed. This is also true, but it doesn't mean that they aren't legally the stewards already.
 
Khaos said:
What makes you think there isn't already a specific legal framework written to deal with such situations? One with specifics regarding the nature of the crime, the status of the criminal...
I am sure there was, and that framework would have been "any Tristian criminals must be handed over to Tristian."

The political problem is going to be the fact that many of the crimes they will have committed would garner them massive sympathy from the Fae. To the point where in some cases even turning them over to Tristian would be the equivalent of committing a crime.

For instance refusing a nobles order, defending yourself against a noble, or not serving a noble to their satisfaction. And the less said about the way they treat rape and rape victims the better.
 
*looks at last ten pages*

... you lost me round about the point where we started discussing the Industrial Revolution.

Just to confirm the events occurring so far:
  • With Op. Dunkirk a relative success, the Allied forces are returning to Tristain.
  • Reconquista is in mild confusion, blame games and reorganisation are underway.
  • The Church is aware of necromancy being used and may or may not act on this knowledge.
  • The Faerie Council are reorganising and trying to figure out their next move.
Is this correct?

Also, can we consider the Albion Arc over now, and are currently in the inter-arc transition period?
 
Vaermina said:
I am sure there was, and that framework would have been "any Tristian criminals must be handed over to Tristian."

The political problem is going to be the fact that many of the crimes they will have committed would garner them massive sympathy from the Fae. To the point where in some cases even turning them over to Tristian would be the equivalent of committing a crime.

For instance refusing a nobles order, defending yourself against a noble, or not serving a noble to their satisfaction.
Again, what makes you think that the Faery haven't thought of it when the brokered their treaties?

If they decided to agree to "any Tristainian criminals must be handed over to Tristain", it would have been probably in exchange of "any Fae criminals must be handed over to Fae courts". Thus, it was decided that though the handing over Tristanian criminals could be unpalatable for some Tristainian crimes, it was ultimately acceptable because it granted the Fae a measure of protection. Or maybe they decided to punt the trial to a joint court, or maybe they decided to hand such cases over a Royal court instead of the local ones.

Regardless, it's not actually important, what's important is that it's a situation they've already thought about and already decided the specific way they would deal about it. When such a case occurs, it's only the matter of applying a previous decision, there's nothing to re-debate over.
 
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