Halkegenia Online Thread 14 - How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love The Salamander

HRogge · Jan 1, 2014

Sinsystems said:
Well it is implied that Kirito held back slightly since he only used one sword but the girl is still crazy good

I think they mentioned she had quicker reflexes than Kirito and would have got the "Dual Wield" skill in SAO if she would have been in the death game.

Vaermina · Jan 1, 2014

Chaoswind said:
In self defense or to protect others? Yes, but I don't think she will go out og her way to join the war effort as a front line soldier.

Which is just like the majority of other high level end game ALO characters now. That doesn't however change the fact that they are some of the strongest people in HaLO.

Shinji117 · Jan 1, 2014

Though wouldn't she lack the whole literally-cheaten stats Kirito has?
Sure she could potentially, with time and experience be more skillful or have better reflexes, but given that parameters no longer work like a game shouldn't Kirito's broken stats and skills be even more unfair than before given how hard it is in real life to 'level up' skills, even compared to Alf and it's semi-unusual system?

I'd imagine his accidental cheating has left him one of, if not the, straight-up physically best Fae even ignoring things like his experience, his general skill and so on?

Vaermina · Jan 1, 2014

Shinji117 said:
Though wouldn't she lack the whole literally-cheaten stats Kirito has?
Sure she could potentially, with time and experience be more skillful or have better reflexes, but given that parameters no longer work like a game shouldn't Kirito's broken stats and skills be even more unfair than before given how hard it is in real life to 'level up' skills, even compared to Alf and it's semi-unusual system?

I'd imagine his accidental cheating has left him one of, if not the, straight-up physically best Fae even ignoring things like his experience, his general skill and so on?

Depends on a number of factors, Kirito's stats weren't unique among people in ALO given he was able to get back to that level through normal play a couple months after restarting his character.

Jinx999 · Jan 1, 2014

Vaermina said:
Nope, it was a chained 11 hit strike that she could flawlessly repeat at will without system assist. To put that in perspective the next highest was the 8 hit [Volcano Strike] made by Eugene. Yuuki was the most skilled swordsman in ALO for a good reason, and that reason hasn't changed.

She had to do it at least once to record it for the system assist to make it a sword skill, but from then on, she could use system assist to duplicate it.

Zeful · Jan 1, 2014

Chaoswind said:
Not really.

There is no conditioning of the body and muscle memory, so that step doesn't exist.

So the time needed to master the movements solely depends on the mind and reflex thought.

Yeah, but you still need to develop your muscles to move fast enough. That's what I mean.

Vaermina said:
Actually [Mother Rosario] is never described, so I don't know where your getting that is was just a bunch of thrusts from.

Also she beat Asuna and Kirito in sword duels, which were all about RL sword skill.

Yes it is Vaer, from the first half of Chapter 11 of Mother's Rosario:

The girl's right hand was swung out with such a shocking shout. The tip of the sword left 5 stab marks at a speed the naked eye couldn't see from the top right to the bottom left of the trunk. She drew the sword back, and left 5 marks from the top left corner to the bottom right corner. For each stab the lunge skill made, the trunk would make an exaggerated loud noise, and the towering trees continued to shake. If the trees were things that could be destroyed, they would be sliced in half already.

Having launched 10 strikes of the lunge skill, Yuuki used the strength in her entire body to pull the sword back and hit the intersection point. The blueish-purple dazzling light exploded all around, and the grass beside their feet bent backwards, looking like they were tossed away.

Triggerhappy · Jan 1, 2014

Chaoswind said:
I don't see her killing (as thus she is a courrier and not part of the mob patrols).

Vaermina · Jan 1, 2014

Zeful said:
Yes it is Vaer, from the first half of Chapter 11 of Mother's Rosario:

I stand corrected, however those weren't thrusts like you claimed they were lunge's and slashes which are more difficult to chain together.

DB_Explorer · Jan 1, 2014

Triggerhappy said:

Mortimer: War... war never changes

Vaermina · Jan 1, 2014

thesage2600 said:
And the fact that Yuuki could do it once by herself speaks of skill, but can she always do it without system assist? Kirito, for instance, can't do a lot of his stronger dueal weilding sword skills in ALO because he doesn't have system assist and it goes beyond what his mind and body can keep up with.

Mother's Rosario would be extremely unrealistic to use, and possibly more of a danger to the user than the attacked. Wasn't there like a forced freeze on someone attacked by a sword skill or something?

Not that I know of, but the skills themselves did have a cooldown between uses.

Vaermina · Jan 1, 2014

Pwrserge said:
Actually Vaer, lunges and slashes are very easy to chain together with the right weapon. In fact, half of modern saber fencing is based on chaining them together to avoid loosing priority.

I don't remember if the type of sword that Yuuki uses is called out in cannon, but the core of her advantage is her absurdly fast response time which makes a one-handed slashing blade like a saber or scimitar more likely.

I only said more difficult then thrusts.

Is she the most "powerful" person in ALO? Probably not due to a simple lack of mechanical strength and magic. Could she take almost anybody in a one on one sword duel? Almost certainly. If Kirito is a classic speed + strength build, she would be a speed + agility build. Fighting her would be like trying to cut water.

Prior to the Sword Skills patch it was pretty much a death sentence in PvP to rely solely on a sword. So she probably has a high if not maxed level in at least one magic discipline.

DB_Explorer · Jan 1, 2014

Pwrserge said:
Can we agree that she is a very skilled, but unknown swordsman that's unlikely to get involved in any major events until TH decides otherwise through a rather plot dependent coincidence?

I was thinking someone (Ephi maybe?) attacks her during a courier run and leaves her for dead in a shallow grave... only to be dug out by a friendly group of pixies and brought back to health by a rather eccentric water mage living in the woods.

"Your face does the thinking - two to the skull, yet one gets up. Odds are against you... but they're just numbers after the two-to-one. You're playing the hand you've been dealt, but you don't let it rest, you shuffle and stack, and a gamble... a gamble that may pay off? But how?

Forecast: Rapidly changing conditions."

Chaoswind · Jan 1, 2014

Ephi is no longer in Tristain...

DB_Explorer · Jan 1, 2014

dan-heron said:
only the number of tiny panties change

Mortier: Gramont! get out of my memoirs!

also I'm trying to find a post about some quest in ALO that had a magic item that healed emotion or something... since someone pointed out Sheffield would want that... a lot.

Gear · Jan 1, 2014

DB_Explorer said:
Mortier: Gramont! get out of my memoirs!

also I'm trying to find a post about some quest in ALO that had a magic item that healed emotion or something... since someone pointed out Sheffield would want that... a lot.

Mortimer: Wait, how are you even in my memoirs? I don't remember writing this part.

Anzer'ke · Jan 1, 2014

Jinx999 said:
She had to do it at least once to record it for the system assist to make it a sword skill, but from then on, she could use system assist to duplicate it.

Ok, could we please at least try to acknowledge canon? I am amazed Vaer hasn't already stated quoting the canon:

Single hit slashes and thrusts are almost all registered as preexisting
sword skills. Therefore if you want to compile an OSS, it had to be a
combo. However, as a series of actions, there couldn't be any flaws
in the various aspects like the center of gravity and trajectory. In
addition, the speed must be almost as fast as the completed sword
skill.

That was saying, "You must execute a combo which should be
impossible without system support, without the system's assistance."
A harsh requirement which could be considered contradictory.

There was only one way to overcome that barrier, and that was
repeatedly practicing innumerable times. Until your nerves
completely remembered the series of actions.

So no, this is not just her doing a random bunch of thrusts and slashes and getting a sword skill.

The next longest original sword skill anyone managed to create was Eugene's eight-hit one, now this is in a game where actual sword skill explicitly counts for everything. Sakuya's actual training results in her placing extremely high in tournaments for instance. We see Kirito's SAO sword fighting actually giving him some real skill at points.
Now in this set-up, whereby actual practising sword fighters are present and consider an eight-hit skill to be an incredible achievement, Yuuki made it to eleven hits.

This would suggest that she is more than just incredible reflexes and a capacity to embrace her reality exceeding Kirito's. She plainly has the mindset to practice over and over and over and over and over. The instincts (since I don;t see where she could have learned the actual skills) to grasp where she's going wrong and improve her technique by herself. And she probably has at least semi-high stats. Including Magic of some kind as Vaer is right about that being a required thing in ALO. Kirito is the only character we ever see pre-New Aincrad with no real magic use.

EDIT: Put correct quote at top of this post...still not sure how the hell I got the wrong one.

Sinsystems · Jan 1, 2014

Gear said:
Mortimer: Wait, how are you even in my memoirs? I don't remember writing this part.

Gramont: I do it was that night when you had a little too much to drink

Krytherian · Jan 1, 2014

Here's some references to clarify Vaer's speculation.

(1) Yuuki's strength is her reflexes, not her sword skills or her experience

Vaermina said:
Yuki's strength was based on OSS

The only time Yuuki used any Sword Skills in her duel against Asuna was right at the end of the fight. Prior to that, she was able to deflect Asuna's strikes, including Asuna's Sword Skills, using only her reaction speed. Asuna also mentions that Yuuki is inexperienced - she never uses any feints, and she falls for Asuna's surprise tactic of using a [<Boxing]> technique.

SAO LN 7 – Ch 3 said:
Asuna's right hand shot forward like an arrow. Those thrusts filled with torque and inertia shot out twice slightly to the left of the center of Absolute Sword's body, and another thrust ingeniously shot out to her right after a short while. It was a regular skill rather than a sword skill, although it wasn't as fast, its aim was more precise. If she dodged to the right to avoid the first two thrusts, she couldn't evade the following one.

Like Asuna thought, Yuuki's body moved slightly to the right to avoid the first two strikes. As her movement stopped, she entered the striking zone of the third hit—

However, as the tip of the rapier was about to hit her chest armor, Yuuki's right hand moved indistinctly. At the same time, sparks appeared to the right side of Asuna's rapier, and the trajectory of the thrust shifted slightly.
…
Tremors filled Asuna's body as she faced this terrifying, lightning fast speed.
…
Asuna was more speechless at her amazing reaction speed. Although she kept hearing about how strong she was, the opponent's unexpectedly cute face put her off guard. She once suspected that the reason Kirito lost was due to negligence or discretion while fighting a girl, but that was completely undeserved. Even he wasn't able to successfully block Asuna's full power thrust even once.
…
Asuna suddenly pulled back her right hand, and at the same time, clenched her left fist and punched Absolute Sword's right side. This was a «Boxing» skill which she learned when she visited the faraway Gnome capital's training field. Even though there was no power because she didn't equip a knuckle-type weapon that it was intended for, it caused a flinch which was impossible without using a skill.

Dong, an impact came from her left fist, Absolute Sword widened her eyes in shock. This was her first and last chance. Asuna didn't hesitate and activated the four-hit sword skill «Quadruple Pain».

Asuna's rapier shone bright red and at the same time her right hand, controlled by the system, shredded the air like lightning.

Asuna was confident that the attack would hit. The opponent's posture was already destroyed and it was also impossible to avoid in terms of distance.

However. Letting the system speed up her right hand, Asuna looked at Absolute Sword's face, and tremors once again filled her body. Even though Absolute Sword's eyes were wide open, there wasn't a hint of panic in her violet eyes. Her eyes were focused on the tip of the rapier.

She could see the thrusts—?

The instant this thought crossed Asuna's mind, Absolute Sword's right hand flashed out.

Like a sword placed on a grinding wheel, a hard, scraping sound continuously rang out four times. Asuna's four-hit combo was accurately parried up, down, left and right, not a single blow hit. Asuna could only see a thin, ink-like afterimage left on Absolute Sword's sword.

Her last hit being parried, Asuna was frozen in a position

(2) The source of Yuuki's strength
The reason for Yuuki's superb reaction time is also explained in the SAO LN's, although you do have to look beyond Mother's Rosario to get the complete picture. It's mentioned in one of the other LN's that the longer a person is linked up with the Nerve Gear, the faster their nerves learn to synchronize with the Full Dive system. In other words, longer time in Full Dive = faster reflexes. (I remember this distinctly because at the time I thought 'this doesn't make any sense from a physiological perspective'. However, it is SAO!canon, and thus Word of God for this story setting).

It's not stated quite as directly in Mother's Rosario, but Asuna's explanations are consistent with Reki's world building, and also excludes the Medicuboid's deeper link from being the reason for her faster reflexes:

SAO LN 7 - Ch6 said:
It's impossible to be so agile unless the player avatar, nerves and the AmuSphere that links them both are all as one.

How much experience did she have to gain just to reach that level?

SAO LN 7 - Ch 9 said:
The Medicuboid was installed with many times the number of pulse generated components compared to the Nerve Gear, and could completely eliminate the feeling of the body, and even had a CPU that had a processing speed that was far superior to the AmuSphere—in other words, was the overwhelming ability Yuuki displayed in Alfheim because of the outstanding specs of this machine?

Asuna had this idea for a moment, but she immediately rejected the notion. Yuuki's amazing sword skills have exceeded the level which a machine's specs could display. In regards to the talent in battle, Yuuki's ability was enough to match Kirito's, and maybe even beat him.

As far as Asuna knew, the reason Kirito became so strong was because he spent much more time fighting on the frontlines than anyone in those two years where they were imprisoned in SAO. If that's the case, how long had Yuuki been in that world created by the Medicuboid—

Before today, Asuna thought that amongst all the users of AmuSphere in the whole world, the ones with the most dive experience should be the old SAO players, including her. But now she knew that she was wrong. This skinny girl lying in front of her was the purest virtual traveler in the world. This was the reason Yuuki became so strong.

(3) Mother's Rosario

Vaermina said:
Actually [Mother Rosario] is never described, so I don't know where your getting that is was just a bunch of thrusts from.
...
I stand corrected, however those weren't thrusts like you claimed they were lunge's and slashes which are more difficult to chain together.

It's also described a second time in Yuuki's duel with Asuna, and the word "thrust" is used to describe the first 10 strikes. The final strike was going to "pierce" Asuna, which indicates an 11th thrust. Slashes don't "pierce".

SAO LN 7 - Ch 3 said:
A counterattack-sword skill!

"Aaah!"

For the first time in the match, Yuuki let out an awe-inspiring cry. Then, she thrust forward with a speed that would've been very hard to avoid even if Asuna wasn't recovering from her skill, and caught Asuna's left shoulder. Slanting directly towards the bottom-right, she executed a five-hit combo without rest. All of them beautifully hit and Asuna's HP bar rapidly decreased and became yellow. She didn't remember a one-handed sword skill like that, which meant it was an «Original Sword Skill». She actually compiled such a fast five-hit combo—

While Asuna was dazed and thinking that, the light of Yuuki's sword didn't fade and she raised it to her upper-left.

It didn't end in five hits. It was still continuing. Finally being released from her skill's recovery time, Asuna pulled herself together and once again trembled.

Supposing Yuuki thrust at her another five times, there was no doubt that her HP would drop to zero. However, it was impossible to avoid.

Rather than uselessly trying to run and getting hit in the back, it'd be better to gamble on a small chance. Asuna put all her energy into her right hand and once again activated a sword skill. The only five-hit OSS which she had successfully compiled, named «Starry Tear».

Red and blue flashes interlocked. Going from Asuna's right shoulder to her bottom-left, the tip of Yuuki's sword intersected with her previous hits and made a cross.

However, Asuna's rapier finally hit Absolute Sword. Drawing the apex of a small star, the five-hit thrust skill pierced the black armor.

They finished exchanging five hits, and there was a moment of silence. Neither of them had fallen.

Absolute Sword's HP bar was reduced by more than half, and turned yellow. Whereas Asuna's HP bar entered the red zone, and there was only a little left. In the first place, Asuna, whose character data was inherited from SAO, had higher HP than ALO players. The astonishing ten-hit combo managed to actually chip almost all of it away, the power of Absolute Sword's OSS was really terrifying, however...

No. Yuuki's longsword was still releasing a violet glow, the sword skill hadn't ended.

Once again pulling back her sword, she aimed directly at the center of Asuna's body, the intersection of the cross-shaped effect.

That is saying, this is the miraculous OSS which Absolute Sword gambled on the duel? Asuna sighed deeply.

Power and speed which exceeded common sense, moreover, beauty which was even greater than those. I have no regrets losing to this kind of sword skill. Stating this in her heart, Asuna waited for the final hit.

The eleventh hit ferociously descended — but suddenly stopped right before it pierced through Asuna. The forcefully interrupted system support released a bright flash and the impact was released into the surrounding air, causing the surrounding grass to radially fall.

(4) Yuuki's duels against Kirito

Vaermina said:
Also she beat Asuna and Kirito in sword duels, which were all about RL sword skill.

I usually refrain from discussing power levels, but it's always annoyed me how people seem to think that Yuuki is a more capable swordsman than Kirito on the basis of her two duels with him. It is clearly stated in the LN that while Kirito did fight her seriously, he NEVER went all out against her.

SAO LN 7 - Ch 1 - Lisbeth said:
Even if you ask me, for that level of fighting, someone like me can't determine whether they're serious... But Kirito wasn't dual-wielding, so in that aspect he wasn't going all out.

SAO LN 7 - Ch 10 said:
Having defeated Kirito, who made lots of legends—even though he didn't use his Dual Blades skill—«Absolute Sword» Yuuki was crowned the 4th champion of the tournament

And the only time Yuuki does see him going all out?

SAO LN 7 - Ch 6 - Yuuki said:
"No...No way..."
Even the «Absolute Sword» Yuuki could only mutter in disbelief.

He then proceeds to duel wield against 30 high tier players while Yuuki's entire party of 7, including Asuna, takes on a mere 20.

(5) Kirito's decision to zero his stats before he started playing ALO again

Vaermina said:
Depends on a number of factors, Kirito's stats weren't unique among people in ALO given he was able to get back to that level through normal play a couple months after restarting his character.

That is pure speculation. As far as I know, it's not mentioned anywhere that Kirito was able to regain the stats that he had from Aincrad. If you do find a reference to show that, please show me the quote.

---
(6) Yuuki's sister
On a different matter, while looking up those quotes I discovered that Mother's Rosario also sets out some interesting timeline facts:

In January 2025 Asuna was freed by Kirito
Asuna fights the Floor Boss with Yuuki's guild on 8th January 2026. She visits Yuuki several days after that, at which time, Yuuki's doctor says: "Yuuki-kun's parents…died 2 years ago, and her sister died a year ago."

Thus, if TH sticks to the premise that Yuuki's sister wasn't saved by the transition, then her sister would likely have died only a handful of days before the transition.

That should provide plenty of scope for some survival guilt on Yuuki's part, and she should still be grieving for her sister's loss.

Edit:
I forgot that TH has shifted all the dates. In SAO Canon, SAO was launched on November 6th, 2022 and cleared on November 7th, 2024. Asuna was rescued in Jan 2025. In HaLO, the Transition occurs on Jan 21st, 2024, so all the Canon dates should be moved forward by a year to match.

DB_Explorer · Jan 1, 2014

Krytherian said:
Thus, if TH sticks to the premise that Yuuki's sister wasn't saved by the transition, then her sister must have died only a handful of days before the transition. That should provide plenty of scope for some survival guilt on Yuuki's part, and she should still be grieving for her sister's loss.

: (

*throws author fiats around* It's only a few days! Hang on!!! We have enough stuff being sad!

Wait how would a person more or less the middle of literally dieing feel going from almost dead human to 100% healthy Fae body? Or would the medical dive system keep them from feeling anything?

Edit:

Krytherian said:
In January 2025 Asuna was freed by Kirito

Asuna fights the Floor Boss with Yuuki's guild on 8th January 2026. She visits Yuuki several days after that, at which time, Yuuki's doctor says: "Yuuki-kun's parents…died 2 years ago, and her sister died a year ago."

So her sister died sometime around January 2025.... (one year before January 2026)

Halkgenia Online said:
What was known was that at 7:55 PM Tokyo Standard Time on Jan 21st, 2024, the 61,340 plays logged into ALFheim online, their AMUspheres, and all player data on the ALFHeim servers, vanished from the world.

Meaning Her parents are dead but her sister should still be alive.

Anzer'ke · Jan 1, 2014

DB_Explorer said:
: (

*throws author fiats around* It's only a few days! Hang on!!! We have enough stuff being sad!

Wait how would a person more or less the middle of literally dieing feel going from almost dead human to 100% healthy Fae body? Or would the medical dive system keep them from feeling anything?

I think I recall the medicuboid only blocking most of the horrendous suffering. Checking now. Which is fun, re-reading one of the only things to make me sob like a baby in the last half a decade.

Sinsystems · Jan 1, 2014

DB_Explorer said:
: (

*throws author fiats around* It's only a few days! Hang on!!! We have enough stuff being sad!

Wait how would a person more or less the middle of literally dieing feel going from almost dead human to 100% healthy Fae body? Or would the medical dive system keep them from feeling anything?

They'd probably thank whatever god they worship. Also I now imagie Yuuki and her sister having a touching moment saying goodbye in game like what Yuuki and Asuna did, at that exact moment the transition happens

Zeful · Jan 1, 2014

Anzer'ke said:
Ok, could we please at least try to acknowledge canon? I am amazed Vaer hasn't already stated quoting the canon:

I did. I quoted the SWORD SKILL ITSELF. Your little quote has literally no bearing on what I actually said.

So no, this is not just her doing a random bunch of thrusts and slashes and getting a sword skill.

Build your fucking men of straw somewhere the hell else. Because this is not what I fucking said.

Anzer'ke · Jan 1, 2014

Zeful said:
I did. I quoted the SWORD SKILL ITSELF. Your little quote has literally no bearing on what I actually said.

Build your fucking men of straw somewhere the hell else. Because this is not what I fucking said.

I appear to have clicked reply on the wrong post...still...just a little touchy don't you think?

EDIT:

Jinx999 said:
She had to do it at least once to record it for the system assist to make it a sword skill, but from then on, she could use system assist to duplicate it.

Is the one I meant to quote...really not sure how I got the wrong one but I was trying to show that she did not simply do the skill once and that's it.

DB_Explorer · Jan 1, 2014

Sinsystems said:
They'd probably thank whatever god they worship. Also I now imagie Yuuki and her sister having a touching moment saying goodbye in game like what Yuuki and Asuna did, at that exact moment the transition happens

Yuuki: Good bye sister...
>Transition[
Yuuki and her sister run about helping people for several hours.
Yuuki: Wait a minute!.... *points at her sister* your not dead!
*Cue much thanking of the Gods.... all of them*

Though Now I see a cult of the void forming when they find out Void caused this.

<quote tmp="Anzer'ke"]I think I recall the medicuboid only blocking most of the horrendous suffering. Checking now. Which is fun, re-reading one of the only things to make me sob like a baby in the last half a decade.[/quote]No need to torture yourself!

I edited my last post with this but forum lag means I got ninjaed sorta...

Krytherian said:
In January 2025 Asuna was freed by Kirito

Asuna fights the Floor Boss with Yuuki's guild on 8th January 2026. She visits Yuuki several days after that, at which time, Yuuki's doctor says: "Yuuki-kun's parents…died 2 years ago, and her sister died a year ago."

So her sister died sometime around January 2025.... (one year before January 2026)

Halkgenia Online said:
What was known was that at 7:55 PM Tokyo Standard Time on Jan 21st, 2024, the 61,340 plays logged into ALFheim online, their AMUspheres, and all player data on the ALFHeim servers, vanished from the world.

Meaning Her parents are dead but her sister should still be alive.

Sinsystems · Jan 1, 2014

DB_Explorer said:
Yuuki: Good bye sister...
>Transition[
Yuuki and her sister run about helping people for several hours.
Yuuki: Wait a minute!.... *points at her sister* your not dead!
*Cue much thanking of the Gods.... all of them*

Though Now I see a cult of the void forming when they find out Void caused this.</quote]True but mostly I like the idea because the girl needs at least a single family member, she deserves it after all

Halkegenia Online Thread 14 - How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love The Salamander

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