Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol.2
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The Fin, the Bomb, and arguably the Intro were entirely built around "look how zany Baby Groot is! He brings back weird things, keeps getting the button wrong, and is dancing during the fight!"
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The opening, that I'll give you, but there was nothing zany about the bomb.
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I liked the intro scene with Baby Groot as did my dad who saw the film with me.
It was entirely "look how crazy Baby Groot is, he can't memorize this!"
There wasn't any more meat to the joke and by dragging it out you removed any dramatic tension, especially as you'd already done the same joke with the fin.
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I didn't think it was dragged out, not at all.
Then you're probably the audience for Peter Griffin Moaning on the Ground For 2 Minutes comedy.
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I don't watch Family Guy, and I know a good film when I see it. As I'm adopted I really liked the theme of family in this film and how Peter realised Yondu was his true daddy, not Ego.
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That not craziness though. That's Groot being a toddler. Nor does it remove Dramatic Tension. It increases the tension because they're forced to rely on someone with the mentality of a Toddler to save the day
You should check it out, you'd like it.
We already had the fin scene though! With the joke done once (that Groot couldn't follow the orders) it's already set up that this time he gets it right. Except without any sort of character growth for him between the two times you end up with no resounding feeling of completeness or tension involved. The scene is predicated on the audience going "daw, he so cute" and ignoring everything else.
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The Finn scene sets up that Groot is bad with following directions, so that when he has to do it in the finale, the Audience is properly aware that there is a danger of him screwing up and killing everyone. The audience going "D'aw, He's so Cute" is not the purpose of the bomb scene. The fact that you think that's what they were going for is indicative that you don't understand what they were trying to do
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I think that guy is just looking for any reason to hate GOTG Vol 2, grasping at very thin, short straws.
Predicated doesn't mean "the point of" but rather that it's based upon. The attempt at humor in the bomb scene is that BG is cute and adorable and thus him being unable to follow these directions is cutely funny. It's watching cats fail at making jumps.
In addition, the Fin -> Bomb scene doesn't work in terms of building tension because there's no character growth between the two. Generally this kind of format is used in stories because you have character fail at X, have emotional growth or maturation, able to succeed at X as a reward for the character arc. It's why having the character fail a second time in stories, especially in the climax, is such a swerve. Instead we cut out the character arc but kept the failure -> success, which removed the emotional reward without adding in any tension.
I opened up by saying I liked the film but felt there were some problems. I'm trying to have an actual mature discussion about the nature of comedy in a film and why I don't think it worked for me; if you don't feel like you're enough of an adult to engage please just step out.
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I'm an adult, don't go assuming things about me. Frankly I liked the comedy in the film and felt not one joke dragged on.
Then please act like one; it's okay to say "I liked this film for reason X." It's grade school to accuse someone who said they enjoyed the film but for reason Y of trying to smear said film.
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The problem here is that the bomb scene isn't based on Groot being Cute.
It's not failure and Success, it Setup and Payoff. The film sets up that Groot is bad at directions, so that when the bomb scene comes, they know that Groot can't follow directions thus creating tension. In the end, Groot is still unable to follow the directions, he only presses the right button because the other button is broken
To be fair, you were insulting his intelligence too.
Except without any character growth you don't have an actual reason for building up to the scene; there's no real payoff which leaves the finale kind of dead in the water. It is based on his failure to understand Rocket as being cute; that's the entirety of the humor! Look at BG, it's so silly that he's frustrating Rocket! If he wasn't cute it would just be annoying to the audience; it's his big eyes and toddler like demeanor which make it adorable. Imagine if he was an horrible to look at. The scene wouldn't be funny, it would be frustrating for the audience. Again, it's cats failing to make jumps in movie form.
And how so? I don't offer Family Guy as an insult; I loved the shit out of that show per-cancelation. My taste has since changed, but as all I can speak of is from my own perspective I'm fairly certain he would like that show. I think his post effectively calling me a hater was immature and was going to completely derail the discussion.
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1. Except the failure to understand Rocket isn't cute nor is it presented as such. Just because Baby Groot's design in general is cute does not mean that all of his scenes are about him being Cute
2. There is Payoff. Groot's difficulty understanding Rocket's directions is the payoff.
3. your tone was condescending
The scene was based on him being cute, therefore we still sympathize with him and enjoy the scene through Rocket's frustration. That's the structure, the foundation of the joke. Again, swap in an ugly ball of mud and you don't have the scene.
That's not what payoff means when it comes to the scene. The payoff in the climax are the sisters overcoming their differences, Yondu making his sacrifice, Peter tapping into the power to fight Ego, the emotional jumps. There isn't a similar one with BG because of the lack of an arc.
And now we've moved from insulting his intelligence to being condescending to someone after they've attacked me and thrown aside good faith? We can have a discussion here without the insults, please. I'm respecting that you have a different opinion than me and laying out my arguments for why the aspects of the film didn't work. Please don't turn this into a tone police station instead of actually discussing the film. I'm actually trying to give your points full credit and respond to them in kind.
Now, I just went back and checked the button scene; it was almost a minute long of a single repeated joke. I think that was a problem; the fin scene was much longer than that. GotG2 was at its peak when the jokes instead flowed from and into general discussions; take the trash panda joke, or "who don't dance" or the "you're hideous" cracks. They all came about organically and were used to further the characterization of the cast. The issue with the BG scenes was that they in and of themselves didn't seem to push characterization or plot but were rather bookended by it.
Look at the Fin scene. The kicker here is that Yondu's #2 comes to the realization he made a huge mistake and turns his coat back to Yondu after seeing BG run back and forth. We need to show time passing while keeping in the humor that BG doesn't actually understand what the guys want. There's a tried and true method for doing this in the montage! You're able to keep the joke escalating (BG keeps bringing back zanier items) and have the reactions from the straight men without it dragging by using the basics of cut to cut away. This also lets you add in a build up to Kraglin joining the heroes.
Instead the joke steps all over its own feet because it lingers too long with a repeated joke. You don't need Rocket and Yondu constantly telling BG what to get or describing it; you do it once and then can do second long cuts to show a slow demoralization. A similar issue (but not one with a similar solution) happened with Taserface. It was a solid repeatable joke; guy thinks he's super tough with a badass name but lo and behold it's really silly! This works when he tries to build himself up first to the crew and then to the High Priestess! The problem is that the writers think it's so funny that you can just repeat the same joke in the same circumstances several times during its introduction and it's just as funny, which doesn't work that well.
For all the shit we give Joss Whedon, the fast quip style of comedy became really popular because it never lingers for too long on the same material. This can be tough, but is often more workable in ensemble casts than escalating a joke or doing a build up to punchline and repeat. Taserface failed to have any sort of escalation, the Fin scene didn't do its escalation well because it kept repeating the setup, and the button went back to the same style as Taserface.
I mean, I'm focusing on these issues because overall I really enjoyed the film and think that these relatively small failures stood out because of that. The scenes probably could have also been salvaged by swapping out the straight man as I put forth earlier, as Rocket is definitely weak in that area (although I do understand why they did it outside of the general pairing; you can definitely get humor from making your silly character faced with responsibility), but overall it's still one of the most enjoyable Marvel films, and I am really excited for Adam Warlock in the next one.
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No, it wasn't. Groot's cuteness was an incidental part of the scene. You put an ugly kid in that situation and it still works.
Pay off in film making terms is when an aspect set up in the early parts of the film comes back later.
No. Ant disagreed with you, and then you were condescending towards him in your reply. That's why he was hostile towards you later.
Baby Groot's scenes do push characterization and plot. Through him, the other characters were able to show off how they react to having to take care of a child, and parental figures are a major thematic component of the film. By showing the characters acting as Parents, you both give them more depth and contrast them with the bad parents in the film, like Thanos or Ego. We see Gamora and Peter trying to be better parents than the ones that raised them. Rocket's treatment of Groot shows the range of his character. Looking at Rocket in the first film you'd think he'd be a terrible parent. This film shows that he does care about the youngsters under his charge, whilst still being recognizably Rocket.
Payoff is when something is built towards a conclusion. Repeating a joke is not a payoff.
And what? We established that recommending someone Family Guy humor isn't insulting, so I don't think you have much to go on. People like different kinds of comedy and we can only speak for the types we like. I'm laying out the case for why I don't think it worked for me and why the film was overall weaker than it could have been. However, if I did come across as insulting I would like to apologize; I was attempting to either have a "yes I like that which is where we disagree" or "No I dislike that for X reasons and we can work off that."
And the problem with putting it as a parental figure is that BG doesn't actually spend that much time interacting with the cast. It's mainly with Rocket, and there it's just reiterating his characterization that hasn't changed much since his arc in the first film. Rocket is a fish out of water with the cast, serving a child like morality coupled with a chip on his shoulder and easily bruised ego. However under all that he really does care about the rest of the group even if he gets them in trouble. Rocket basically already underwent his character development, and GotG2 is reaffirming it. Which isn't bad! Putting a character under the spotlight and showing that they're not backsliding or betraying their values is important and has been the basis of stories for just about ever.
But Rocket's interactions with Baby Groot are basically static. In the family unit metaphor, he's the older brother, but how he acts with BG doesn't change throughout the film. In fact, if we were to draw out the family model (parents/kids) I'd argue it's fairly weak compared to a brother/sisterhood ideal. While Peter and Gamora are the ones making the decisions, this isn't because they've been elevated above everyone else. Rather it's just agreed that they're suited best for it, much like how Rocket is for blowing stuff up or Drax for hitting things. Groot is an important part of the the team and a brother to the rest of them and thus they take care of him while he's effectively out of action. In a traditional action entourage you'd basically have The Leader, the 2iC, The Big Guy, the Hothead, and the Heart.
Also, the one weird scene I kind of wanted to muse about was where BG straight up kills a guy. It was kind of fucked up, especially contrasting to the family unit ideal where he serves as the baby and that kind of thing is a giant no go. Bit of a mood whiplash when that happened.
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1. And in Film, payoff means bringing back a previously established aspect of the story.
2. Rocket definitely had Character Development in his film, though it wasn't really connected to Baby Groot. Rocket's development was about not giving in to self-destructive habits. Groot was there more to show a more affectionate side of Rocket as comparison against his bickering with the others.
Repetition is not payoff. Rather, Payoff occurs when circumstances change and therefore it assumes new meaning. Said new meaning is the key here; you don't actually get that due to no arc with BG.
As for Rocket, I disagree that it was about his self-destructive habits. Rather it was about the chip on his shoulder and understanding that even as others rib him that they still care. This isn't hugely different from how he came to view the team in the first film, which is why it was more of showing that he didn't backslide instead of developed further. Rocket in the end would still steal the batteries give the chance after all, that's why we love him.
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Exactly.
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Pay off in this context isn't about Character Arcs, it's about the overall plot of the movie. A previously established Plot element gets reintroduced.
Yondu lays it all out with his scene. They both found places where they belonged, but their respective Chips lead them to push the boundaries, In Yondu's case pushing them so far that he lost his family. From Yondu, Rocket learns to rein himself in so that he doesn't lose his family, whilst still being himself