Goblin Slayer and Literary Analysis vis a vis Thematic Elements

All this drama over a stupid show.

If all you're going to do is complain about the thread's existence, you're probably better off just not reading the thread.

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My thoughts on the "interpreting the work through a western lens is less correct or even invalid" argument is that GS pulls heavily from DnD (from what I've heard), which is western. As GS has at least one root in recent western fiction, criticizing the show from a western standpoint has a valid basis. GS's roots in the internet also mean it may have been subject to additional international influences.
 
My thoughts on the "interpreting the work through a western lens is less correct or even invalid" argument is that GS pulls heavily from DnD (from what I've heard), which is western.
Goblins are a western concept themselves, for that matter.
A goblin is a monstrous creature from European folklore, first attested in stories from the Middle Ages.
The Japanese have been pretty enthusiastic about grabbing various European supernatural critters for their own fantasy works.
 
To be fair, you need to have a really high IQ in order to understand Goblin Slayer. The show if filled with subtle references to Posadism, which can go over the heads of most casual viewers. I pity the normies that don't get this brilliant show. I have a tattoo on my ass that says "nilbog" but I only show it to girls who are fan of the show.
 
Goblins are a western concept themselves, for that matter.
The Japanese have been pretty enthusiastic about grabbing various European supernatural critters for their own fantasy works.

I'm aware of that. It just seemed best to start with the most specific and recent western roots of GS, which AFAIK is DnD.

Japan, or at least Nintendo, has also been pretty good at exporting their own supernatural beings to the rest of the world. It feels like half the Pokemon are based on Japanese supernatural beings. That's a topic for a different discussion though.
 
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Goblins being rapists has been a common implication in plenty of Western works that have them at all and are willing to touch on that sort of thing. Something dating back to long before this Goblin Slayer thing. "Horde monsters" often are in general. Some even do it to reproduce, like xenomorphs, Darkspawn and Xanth goblins. It's nothing special about GS goblins.

And while from what has been posted it sounds like it is in fact partly racist-caricature inspired, that's also a standard complaint about horde enemies in general. Tolkien's orcs have gotten than a lot. So again, nothing special.

Most of what is being complained about is fairly generic, honestly. I have to wonder if people would be so worked up about if it was an otherwise identical but Western-made show. People do often ignore the racism and sexism in their own culture while bashing it in the culture of others.
Wait, wat? When did that become how Xanth goblins reproduce? They aren't monogender nor are they excessively rapey. They are sexist as fuck, but they tend to eat people rather than rape them. Unless we are thinking of different Xanth's
 
If all you're going to do is complain about the thread's existence, you're probably better off just not reading the thread.

--

My thoughts on the "interpreting the work through a western lens is less correct or even invalid" argument is that GS pulls heavily from DnD (from what I've heard), which is western. As GS has at least one root in recent western fiction, criticizing the show from a western standpoint has a valid basis. GS's roots in the internet also mean it may have been subject to additional international influences.
Doesn't really pull too mich from d&d other than some of the tropes for its magic, otherwise it's all Dragonquest tropes.
 
I don't think ANYONE can realistically be able to determine if something is problematic unless the work falls in one of two categories:

1) If the story is promoting readily demonstrable undesirable beliefs. As in, not theoretically, not hypothetically, but people have in real life been influenced by the bad ideas the literature in question is purported to push explicitly because of said story.

2) The goal of the story was to promote these undesirables beliefs all along.

A superficial similarity to the narrative of a group of people with undesirable ideologies is not enough, IMOH, to determine whether or not anyone should be worried about the former pushing the latter. We don't criticize all behavior that isn't 100 percent safe, so we shouldn't do the same to narratives, ideologies or just simple ideas.
Goblin Slayer fits 1 to a T, being just another in long, long line of mindless shit fantasy that demonizes foreigners through allegorical potrayal of them as a race of no exception irredeemably evil monsters while equally mindlessly perpetuating mysogynistic fetishization of rape it claims to be criticising, on top of writing women only barely better than trashy porn pandering to these fetishes.

But I could be biased, I'm a Goblin and for me the protag is just a bigot that I wish would be killed by someone like Redcloak.
 
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You SJW's will call anything racist, even...

*looks at note*

Genre-washed racial propaganda based entirely on taking the fascist view of the world as an eternal struggle between society and the demonized Other repackaged as pulp entertainment.

I think of it more as a journey to deal with Trauma with the Goblins being a symbol for a cruel and heartless world that will brutalize you, there be some pararllels between Goblin Slayer and say someone surviving the horrors of war destroying their home and murdering their family, with some added violation of loved ones thrown in leaving only an empty heart full of bleeding rage that knows nothing of how to deal with the world because of how warped and fucked that kid becomes.
Goblin Slayer is basically a child solider who himself admits out of sheer principle of genoicidal rage would kill every goblin no matter even if it could be good therefore making him the Goblin in how he is a ruthless monster.
With the story of about this very mentally fucked up person still finding ways to be good and develop a network of people who bring him out of his trauma dominating his life.

That is one meaning you can get from it, on the other hand I can see the racist and rape issues as well, a work can have multiple concepts and messages and its good to talk about them but at the same time you can't ignore the not bad shit either.
 
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That is one meaning you can get from it, on the other hand I can see the racist and rape issues as well, a work can have multiple concepts and messages and its good to talk about them but at the same time you can't ignore the not bad shit either.
If the bad stuff is far, far more numerous and intense than the not bad stuff, it's fair to ignore the not bad stuff because it'll never balance the scales.

Especially when that bad stuff involves "some added violation of loved ones thrown in" as if rape is some kind of special seasoning to enhance a backstory.
 
If the bad stuff is far, far more numerous and intense than the not bad stuff, it's fair to ignore the not bad stuff because it'll never balance the scales.

Especially when that bad stuff involves "some added violation of loved ones thrown in" as if rape is some kind of special seasoning to enhance a backstory.
And now I'm remembering Naga in "Does Not Play Well With Others" ranting about how overused rape is as a backstory element.
 
If the bad stuff is far, far more numerous and intense than the not bad stuff, it's fair to ignore the not bad stuff because it'll never balance the scales.

Especially when that bad stuff involves "some added violation of loved ones thrown in" as if rape is some kind of special seasoning to enhance a backstory.
No it isn't? Yes it is a main part of the narrative but how else do you want the subject matter dealt with? Trauma is the central theme and moving element of the series, from Goblin Slayer to Sword Maiden to Farm Girl who even as Goblin Slayer's oldest friend does not have the ability to help him as he is has been damaged to his core and so is stuck showing support but not being able to fully heal her friend.

The primary objective of the series is for Elf Archer to get Goblin Slayer to go on a Adventure for fun showing that he has the capacity to do something that is not linked to his pointed out from the start of the series unhealthy rage that has most everyone who knows him like Cow Girl's Uncle pointing out how many death flags he has over him.

And yet even as his mental health can be described as fucked, he shows that he is willing and able to help others, a display of his old childhood dream to be a hero that survives as a characteristic even after the mental scarring.
Sword Maiden even for how powerful she is, hates and is terrified of the Goblins still and Goblin Slayer gets that in his goblin slaughtering way. We can extend this idea of trauma to Waifu talk of the series which does have some memes and jokes based on physical features of the girls, yet with a undercurrent that really Waifu in the context of Goblin Slayer is a partner that will be able to rehabilitate the mass murdering child soldier who has not been working on not obsessing over his trauma for the past couple years. Mental health and the consequences of someone going the batman route leading to a endless quest of butchery and carnage that does not fill the void inside as he has not processed the end of his sister or the death of his entire family and home. Oh and then there is the father/older brother thing he has going on with Priestess and the creation of a new family with his adventuring party.
These are pretty vital and main concepts of the plot, that keep popping up in the story.
Does the art deptic rape in a way that is more sexualising or such? Its japan would not surprise me but that does not remove the primary idea of the series. You can have bad and good things in a work.
 
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No it isn't? Yes it is a main part of the narrative but how else do you want the subject matter dealt with? Trauma is the central theme and moving element of the series, from Goblin Slayer to Sword Maiden to Farm Girl who even as Goblin Slayer's oldest friend does not have the ability to help him as he is has been damaged to his core and so is stuck showing support but not being able to fully heal her friend.

The primary objective of the series is for Elf Archer to get Goblin Slayer to go on a Adventure for fun showing that he has the capacity to do something that is not linked to his pointed out from the start of the series unhealthy rage that has most everyone who knows him like Cow Girl's Uncle pointing out how many death flags he has over him.

And yet even as his mental health can be described as fucked, he shows that he is willing and able to help others, a display of his old childhood dream to be a hero that survives as a characteristic even after the mental scarring.
Sword Maiden even for how powerful she is, hates and is terrified of the Goblins still and Goblin Slayer gets that in his goblin slaughtering way. We can extend this idea of trauma to Waifu talk of the series which does have some memes and jokes based on physical features of the girls, yet with a undercurrent that really Waifu in the context of Goblin Slayer is a partner that will be able to rehabilitate the mass murdering child soldier who has not been working on not obsessing over his trauma for the past couple years. Mental health and the consequences of someone going the batman route leading to a endless quest of butchery and carnage that does not fill the void inside as he has not processed the end of his sister or the death of his entire family and home. Oh and then there is the father/older brother thing he has going on with Priestess and the creation of a new family with his adventuring party.
These are pretty vital and main concepts of the plot, that keep popping up in the story.
Does the art deptic rape in a way that is more sexualising or such? Its japan would not surprise me but that does not remove the primary idea of the series. You can have bad and good things in a work.
Does the story go into detail on how his friend reacted to her family being killed? How traumatic it must have been for her, how awful having her life taken away from her must have been, how much she suffered and how much it took for her to get back to normalcy? Or does she exist, essentially, as an accessory to Goblin Slayer?

Does the story go into detail on how the concept of genocide is fucked up, and how advocating it is fucked up too? I can answer this, because it's asked in the first episode and explored further: genocide is, in fact, justifiable, and not committing genocide makes things worse for everyone. The author wrote a story in which genocide is not only the only viable option, it's presented as the only moral option too.

Does the story go into detail on how it's uncomfortable how women fall for Goblin Slayer because he happens to protect them all the time, on how a powerful adventurer is rendered helpless in front of goblins without any hint of having recovered in the slightest from her own trauma, on how she tries to use her own rape as a way to seduce the man, and declares that she's even more in love with him now that he's promised to slaughter goblins more for her?

I would like a story where things are treated with gravitas and tact, where the rape isn't sexualised, where it's not gratuitous, where there's no uncomfortable implications of genocide being a-okay. I would like a story where the way to help someone who suffered that much trauma isn't to help him continue his genocide and fall in love with him, where the implication is that if he gets a waifu he'll settle down on his crusade. I would like a story where goblins aren't a mishmash of racial stereotypes, where their design wasn't originally just a ripoff of an insanely racist manga, and failing all this, where they actually acted like magical parasites created by a dark god and didn't exclusively target young, attractive women.

I'm not going to get that story with Goblin Slayer, and in my own personal view, the negatives surrounding it are far, far too much for me to give a single shit about the positives. If I got served a dinner where the meat is raw, the vegetables are rotten, the wine is swill and the dessert has gone off, I'm not going to say "well at least the breadsticks were good", I'm going to say "that's a shitty dinner".
 
Does the story go into detail on how his friend reacted to her family being killed? How traumatic it must have been for her, how awful having her life taken away from her must have been, how much she suffered and how much it took for her to get back to normalcy?

Yes. Unsurprisingly, this is conveniently ignored.
 
Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy falls into things that can't have mature themes, as seen by heavy themes such as rape not appearing in them or being buried into them out of sight.
Jessica Jones has mature and heavy themes of rape focusing on the culture that promotes and vindicates it, the effects had on victims and their loved ones, and the moral bankrupt nature of people who engage in it.

Goblin Slayer has anime waifus getting fetishized as they're raped to show how edgy the setting is, using sexual trauma as a cheap shorthand to appeal to a sixth grader's idea of maturity. Which, coincidentally, appears to be what you enjoy as well.
 
Does the story go into detail on how his friend reacted to her family being killed? How traumatic it must have been for her, how awful having her life taken away from her must have been, how much she suffered and how much it took for her to get back to normalcy? Or does she exist, essentially, as an accessory to Goblin Slayer?

Does the story go into detail on how the concept of genocide is fucked up, and how advocating it is fucked up too? I can answer this, because it's asked in the first episode and explored further: genocide is, in fact, justifiable, and not committing genocide makes things worse for everyone. The author wrote a story in which genocide is not only the only viable option, it's presented as the only moral option too.

Does the story go into detail on how it's uncomfortable how women fall for Goblin Slayer because he happens to protect them all the time, on how a powerful adventurer is rendered helpless in front of goblins without any hint of having recovered in the slightest from her own trauma, on how she tries to use her own rape as a way to seduce the man, and declares that she's even more in love with him now that he's promised to slaughter goblins more for her?

I would like a story where things are treated with gravitas and tact, where the rape isn't sexualised, where it's not gratuitous, where there's no uncomfortable implications of genocide being a-okay. I would like a story where the way to help someone who suffered that much trauma isn't to help him continue his genocide and fall in love with him, where the implication is that if he gets a waifu he'll settle down on his crusade. I would like a story where goblins aren't a mishmash of racial stereotypes, where their design wasn't originally just a ripoff of an insanely racist manga, and failing all this, where they actually acted like magical parasites created by a dark god and didn't exclusively target young, attractive women.

I'm not going to get that story with Goblin Slayer, and in my own personal view, the negatives surrounding it are far, far too much for me to give a single shit about the positives. If I got served a dinner where the meat is raw, the vegetables are rotten, the wine is swill and the dessert has gone off, I'm not going to say "well at least the breadsticks were good", I'm going to say "that's a shitty dinner".
On the first, yes it is brought up how she and her uncle are in a very awkward situation and the fact he is her only family, currently in story. This happened when she was young and she did not have to directly see it so she has moved past it in part. It is also brought up how she would like to not rely on him but he is her only family left and does not know what she would do.
Second Goblin Slayer himself admits to being the Goblin to the Goblins and the self destructive nature of his whole crusade in he fights until he is dead. On Farm Girl not being as affected by the loss of her family, she still has her Uncle and this happened when she was very young. In the Manga she does ask Goblin Slayer I believe about what happened but again she did not directly experience this and so while dealing with the loss does not suffer the overwhelming trauma of Goblin Slayer.

On the second it is brought up in the first couple chapters that Goblin Slayer is very willing to kill even Goblin children and that he does not allow any chance for them to change and the self acknowledgement of the vicious cycle he creates by inspiring hatred in any goblin survivors. Though Goblins are to be noted more a exploration of what happens when you take some D&D flavor text and run it straight, the results are heinous.

On the third, the girls in the series and it should be noted we got multiple reasons and relationships to look at
Priestess is more his first friend in forever/daughter/sister with some romantic hints? Its weird and she likes Goblin Slayer not soley for defending her though that is a factor, its more Goblin Slayer is nice, kind, thoughtful in his own thoughtless way and acts as a source of support after watching her party die and she herself stays with him as part of her empathy and compassion. Priestess was the start of dealing with his Trauma in some fashion and in many ways is his anchor.
On Sword Maiden she beat the Demon Lord and yet is terrified of Goblins, this shows the emotional scarring like with Goblin Slayer runs deep, her love of Goblin Slayer in the narrative is treated as if I were to describe it a coping mechanism that lets her express these feelings and fears with someone who gets them, who understands what the horror of the Goblins is as most see them as just pests and not worthy of having so much power over someone. She is not rendered helpless by them, that is never implied or shown that she could not if pushed come to shove fight them.

What she does feel is a bottomless abyss of fear that has her terrified of the Goblins as an idea, the thought of them around her, the concept of them under the sewers drives her mad. Goblins, not demons, or all the others horrors of this world but Goblins for their sheer cruelty. On her attraction to Goblin Slayer, she sees this person who gets what she went through and devotes himself to slaying them. Goblin Slayer for his part rejects her advances seeing himself as not the hero she needs but just another damaged soul who kills Goblins but assures her that even in her dreams he would come to be by her side and provide support.

The two main romantic leads Farm Girl and Guild Girl. Farm Girl acts as a connection to the boy he used to be and there is still his childhood attachment to the last living friend from his days before Goblin Slaying.

She still feels feelings for him based on the boy he used to be and sees how he still holds in some part though it is corrupted and tainted by his rage against the Goblins, his dream of being a hero as often besides killing Goblins his first concern in his emotionally dead way of his is the safety and well being of others. She is one of the few people that knows Goblin Slayer as more then Goblin Slayer and has a previous connection that lets her in some ways be able to interact with him in a way that somewhat understands his past.

Guild Girl likes Goblin Slayer because he cares about the issue of Goblins she sees kills so many adventures, citizens and in general terrorize the local communities while the Capital does nothing. Goblin Slayer is in comparison to many adventures far more rational and well thought out in his actions. Which is a relief to Guild Girl who knows she is sending many of the people that come to her to their death or worse at times. Goblin Slayer is again when not butchering Goblins is nice, not in that he is beaming with joy or making others laugh but that he helps others. If Guild Girl needs a Goblin nest taken care of or anything else he will help.

On the Waifu thing in part it would help but only as an aspect of the larger adopted family and friends social structure he is building with his party.

On Goblins currently in the manga they look like D&D Goblins and others such things with more a focus on their ability to bring pain and suffering, on the racist bit they are not drawing on any racist sterotypes in particular more a general idea that can be connected to those concepts but does not mean that is the primary objective of the story.

Horrible monsters in the dark, the gibbering hordes that live in the deep and such is more of their thing which yes can be linked to racist musings but at this point we are at it can be seen that way but is the authors work really aiming for that with intent?

There are no specific sterotypes for them beyond the whole raping thing which I would tie into japanesse henatai and I will agree with it being a part of the artwork at times that could be removed and not affect the story much. Other times the graphic nature of it is to the benefit of the story like in Goblin Slayer Year One first chapter to establish how fucked up it is but then we are going case by case basis and still there can be trimming done.

There be any other points brought up by you I did not properly reply to and if so point them out so I can go over them and give a proper response to you.

Sorry this took so long to type up.
 
On the first, yes it is brought up how she and her uncle are in a very awkward situation and the fact he is her only family, currently in story. This happened when she was young and she did not have to directly see it so she has moved past it in part. It is also brought up how she would like to not rely on him but he is her only family left and does not know what she would do.
Second Goblin Slayer himself admits to being the Goblin to the Goblins and the self destructive nature of his whole crusade in he fights until he is dead. On Farm Girl not being as affected by the loss of her family, she still has her Uncle and this happened when she was very young. In the Manga she does ask Goblin Slayer I believe about what happened but again she did not directly experience this and so while dealing with the loss does not suffer the overwhelming trauma of Goblin Slayer.

On the second it is brought up in the first couple chapters that Goblin Slayer is very willing to kill even Goblin children and that he does not allow any chance for them to change and the self acknowledgement of the vicious cycle he creates by inspiring hatred in any goblin survivors. Though Goblins are to be noted more a exploration of what happens when you take some D&D flavor text and run it straight, the results are heinous.

On the third, the girls in the series and it should be noted we got multiple reasons and relationships to look at
Priestess is more his first friend in forever/daughter/sister with some romantic hints? Its weird and she likes Goblin Slayer not soley for defending her though that is a factor, its more Goblin Slayer is nice, kind, thoughtful in his own thoughtless way and acts as a source of support after watching her party die and she herself stays with him as part of her empathy and compassion. Priestess was the start of dealing with his Trauma in some fashion and in many ways is his anchor.
On Sword Maiden she beat the Demon Lord and yet is terrified of Goblins, this shows the emotional scarring like with Goblin Slayer runs deep, her love of Goblin Slayer in the narrative is treated as if I were to describe it a coping mechanism that lets her express these feelings and fears with someone who gets them, who understands what the horror of the Goblins is as most see them as just pests and not worthy of having so much power over someone. She is not rendered helpless by them, that is never implied or shown that she could not if pushed come to shove fight them.

What she does feel is a bottomless abyss of fear that has her terrified of the Goblins as an idea, the thought of them around her, the concept of them under the sewers drives her mad. Goblins, not demons, or all the others horrors of this world but Goblins for their sheer cruelty. On her attraction to Goblin Slayer, she sees this person who gets what she went through and devotes himself to slaying them. Goblin Slayer for his part rejects her advances seeing himself as not the hero she needs but just another damaged soul who kills Goblins but assures her that even in her dreams he would come to be by her side and provide support.

The two main romantic leads Farm Girl and Guild Girl. Farm Girl acts as a connection to the boy he used to be and there is still his childhood attachment to the last living friend from his days before Goblin Slaying.

She still feels feelings for him based on the boy he used to be and sees how he still holds in some part though it is corrupted and tainted by his rage against the Goblins, his dream of being a hero as often besides killing Goblins his first concern in his emotionally dead way of his is the safety and well being of others. She is one of the few people that knows Goblin Slayer as more then Goblin Slayer and has a previous connection that lets her in some ways be able to interact with him in a way that somewhat understands his past.

Guild Girl likes Goblin Slayer because he cares about the issue of Goblins she sees kills so many adventures, citizens and in general terrorize the local communities while the Capital does nothing. Goblin Slayer is in comparison to many adventures far more rational and well thought out in his actions. Which is a relief to Guild Girl who knows she is sending many of the people that come to her to their death or worse at times. Goblin Slayer is again when not butchering Goblins is nice, not in that he is beaming with joy or making others laugh but that he helps others. If Guild Girl needs a Goblin nest taken care of or anything else he will help.

On the Waifu thing in part it would help but only as an aspect of the larger adopted family and friends social structure he is building with his party.

On Goblins currently in the manga they look like D&D Goblins and others such things with more a focus on their ability to bring pain and suffering, on the racist bit they are not drawing on any racist sterotypes in particular more a general idea that can be connected to those concepts but does not mean that is the primary objective of the story.

Horrible monsters in the dark, the gibbering hordes that live in the deep and such is more of their thing which yes can be linked to racist musings but at this point we are at it can be seen that way but is the authors work really aiming for that with intent?

There are no specific sterotypes for them beyond the whole raping thing which I would tie into japanesse henatai and I will agree with it being a part of the artwork at times that could be removed and not affect the story much. Other times the graphic nature of it is to the benefit of the story like in Goblin Slayer Year One first chapter to establish how fucked up it is but then we are going case by case basis and still there can be trimming done.

There be any other points brought up by you I did not properly reply to and if so point them out so I can go over them and give a proper response to you.

Sorry this took so long to type up.
Should probably note that D&D goblins don't act anything like Goblin Slayer goblins. There are no goblin/human hybrids, possibly because of how their god is big on racial purity. Orcs and goblins aren't related incidentally. They are also highly disciplined, with each lair having a precise hierarchy. They aren't chaotic. They also aren't stupid, and are decent miners. They do EAT people, but their priests would likely sacrifice any goblin dumb enough to try and breed with a human. The rapeyness is completely created on the part of the author. (It's actually nited in some sources that they find humans physically repulsive)

Edit: D&D orcs on the other hand will rape anything. There's actual stats for Quaggoth-Orc hybrids in 2e (underground yetis)
 
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Speaking of, does anyone know where the idea of goblins and/or orcs as rapemonsters come from? The trope is too old to be Goblin Slayer's invention, I know Tolkien didn't come up with it and despite multiple comparisons no one has been able to quote a page from any edition of D&D where it is stated that goblins multiply by raping humans.

And yet it can't be denied that it is kinda ubiquitous in Japanese fantasy. Not completely ubiquitous, but it is common enough that writers can just have their greenskin rape people and have the audience accept it. That sort of spread doesn't come from multiple accounts of parallel evolution, there has to be at least one (and probably several) popular sources that started it.

But I have no idea what. Is there some sort of old popular eroge that prominently featured orcs and rape fetishes that I never heard of?
 
Should probably note that D&D goblins don't act anything like Goblin Slayer goblins. There are no goblin/human hybrids, possibly because of how their god is big on racial purity. Orcs and goblins aren't related incidentally. They are also highly disciplined, with each lair having a precise hierarchy. They aren't chaotic. They also aren't stupid, and are decent miners. They do EAT people, but their priests would likely sacrifice any goblin dumb enough to try and breed with a human. The rapeyness is completely created on the part of the author. (It's actually nited in some sources that they find humans physically repulsive)
I think we are talking early addition, like very early and any thoughts on other points?
I think we need to trace Goblin Lore for D&D through editions and see which one the author would have interacted with.
 
I think we are talking early addition, like very early and any thoughts on other points?
I think we need to trace Goblin Lore for D&D through editions and see which one the author would have interacted with.
I even double checked the 1e AD&D monster manual. Early edition d&d is kinda my thing no mention of it.

Like I mentioned, orcs were the rapey ones. There's been half-orc/humans, yetis, ogres, etc... from day one
 
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