Remove ads

Garden (SI, Final Fantasy 8/Worm)

Reader mode
Mashadarof402 said:
I like it, but I think the problem is that there's not much interest in OCs who don't immediately make a very strong showing straight out the gate.

Other than that, I think Coil's takedown happened a bit too fast pacing wise. Felt like you were trying to clear the deck for something else you wanted to get to.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Eh. The thing is, if you wait, Coil's takedown becomes intractible. He's at by far his most vulnerable at the very beginning and the more you try to plan around him the more difficult the plan actually becomes.

Killing Coil in the very beginning is meant to BE that strong showing. But some people may not agree.
 
The story has potential, but Garden is not all that well defined and fleshed out as a character. I currently intend to keep reading what you post here, should you continue the story. Part of why killing Coil doesn't read as a strong showing is how quickly it happened, how little build up there was between the story starting and Coil being dead. The actual move against Coil worked out fairly well, but giving practically no screen time to Coil or the Undersiders prior to Garden taking him out leaves a feeling of "Gary Stu smash!"

RoyalNoises said:
The protectorate is a subset of the Parahuman Response Team. This is a weird system, but that's how it works.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

As I recall, they are considered separate entities, despite how the chain of command works, by civilians if not by the people in those organizations. There was always a clear feeling of separation in how the canon characters viewed the two, but that could be a result of my subjective interpretations rather than what was intended.

RoyalNoises said:
No, the gun is unimpressed. That's the idea.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The phrasing just doesn't work for me. The setup and delivery don't lead to making that phrasing make sense.
 
Wyrd said:
The story has potential, but Garden is not all that well defined and fleshed out as a character. I currently intend to keep reading what you post here, should you continue the story. Part of why killing Coil doesn't read as a strong showing is how quickly it happened, how little build up there was between the story starting and Coil being dead. The actual move against Coil worked out fairly well, but giving practically no screen time to Coil or the Undersiders prior to Garden taking him out leaves a feeling of "Gary Stu smash!"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It may help to read the prequel. :p

It does me a sad to hear "Gary Stu" in this context. The ease with which he handles this honestly isn't that impressive; even Coil knew his squad of naughty boys couldn't really stand up to a Parahuman attack, that's why he hired the Travellers, and to a lesser extent the Undersiders, and on the other hand went to such extreme lengths to hide. He leaned too much on his power and his money. It was his failure, and Tattletale's perfect execution, all Garden provides is a big brick to fling in the windows.

This is also not unexpected of an early game FF8 character, who easily chew their way through dozens or hundreds of Galbadian soldiers with little difficulty and are only stymied by unexpected Elvorets or huge war machines.
 
RoyalNoises said:
It may help to read the prequel. :p

It does me a sad to hear "Gary Stu" in this context. The ease with which he handles this honestly isn't that impressive; even Coil knew his squad of naughty boys couldn't really stand up to a Parahuman attack, that's why he hired the Travellers, and to a lesser extent the Undersiders, and on the other hand went to such extreme lengths to hide. He leaned too much on his power and his money. It was his failure, and Tattletale's perfect execution, all Garden provides is a big brick to fling in the windows.

This is also not unexpected of an early game FF8 character, who easily chew their way through dozens or hundreds of Galbadian soldiers with little difficulty and are only stymied by unexpected Elvorets or huge war machines.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I was unaware that there was a previous story. I'll check that out. There is an old saying in writing, to start with an earthquake and build up from there. The problem with that approach is that the violence in this case has such little detail and build up involved that defeating Coil has no emotional impact. I agree that Coil's biggest weakness lies in the time it takes him to guess the right actions, the build up he needs to get as powerful as in canon. Sadly, smashing him so readily, and getting the Undersiders to switch sides after a single conversation does make him seem more Gary Stu than powerful protagonist, but your writing so far has been good enough to keep my attention, though for how long I cannot as of yet say.

There are a few question percolating that I don't really expect an answer to(prior to being answered in story). Is this before the Travelers joined Coil? More importantly, is this before Noelle was installed in the base? Will Noelle be like a number of bosses in FFVIII and have an eidolon he can draw from her? How many eidolons do you plan on bringing in?

You've already shown some deviation from the FFVIII materials in your descriptions of the eidolons. Both Quetzalcoatl and Ifrit look drastically different, though Ifrit to a far lesser degree, as from your description, he looks like some of the other incarnations of the summon from other Final Fantasies. Does Garden sharing out his eidolons allow other people to draw and stock spells, as in the game?
 
Wyrd said:
I was unaware that there was a previous story. I'll check that out. There is an old saying in writing, to start with an earthquake and build up from there. The problem with that approach is that the violence in this case has such little detail and build up involved that defeating Coil has no emotional impact. I agree that Coil's biggest weakness lies in the time it takes him to guess the right actions, the build up he needs to get as powerful as in canon. Sadly, smashing him so readily, and getting the Undersiders to switch sides after a single conversation does make him seem more Gary Stu than powerful protagonist, but your writing so far has been good enough to keep my attention, though for how long I cannot as of yet say.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well, I understand your criticisms. If I do decide to continue this, I'll try and keep them in mind as I continue.

To make things a bit clearer; Tattletale is the deciding factor. She's the one who was able to get the others on board, and she's the one who basically made the decision to do it this way, seizing an opportunity to free herself from Coil and exploiting her power to make sure she knew how to make the right arguments to get the rest of them turned around on the idea.

There are a few question percolating that I don't really expect an answer to(prior to being answered in story). Is this before the Travelers joined Coil? More importantly, is this before Noelle was installed in the base? Will Noelle be like a number of bosses in FFVIII and have an eidolon he can draw from her? How many eidolons do you plan on bringing in?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It is before that. He arranged the meeting with the Travellers to bring them on board but then got hit before they arrived. Noelle was not in the base.

There are a lot of GFs that could be involved.
As of right now I have plans for Pandemonia, Diablos, Leviathan, Titan, Odin, Valefor, Tonberry, Bahamut, Alexander, and Eden.


You've already shown some deviation from the FFVIII materials in your descriptions of the eidolons. Both Quetzalcoatl and Ifrit look drastically different, though Ifrit to a far lesser degree, as from your description, he looks like some of the other incarnations of the summon from other Final Fantasies. Does Garden sharing out his eidolons allow other people to draw and stock spells, as in the game?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

"Eidolons" are Guardian Forces here, and their appearance is actually defined by their summoner rather than being bound to a single model such as they are in the games. If Tattletale had managed to fully manifest Shiva, she would have looked completely different from how she does when Garden summons her.
 
Just adding my voice to those saying we're interested in seeing more.
Incidentally, there's precedent for the differing appearances of Summoned Beasts, though not in VIII - in X, you see one of the summoners summon something that looks suspiciously like a yeti, and is probably his version of Shiva.
 
RoyalNoises said:
"Eidolons" are Guardian Forces here, and their appearance is actually defined by their summoner rather than being bound to a single model such as they are in the games. If Tattletale had managed to fully manifest Shiva, she would have looked completely different from how she does when Garden summons her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I couldn't remember which terminology to use. I like making them more flexible. It lets you personalize them a bit more, make for less of a shell game feel to sharing them out.

nemo1685 said:
Just adding my voice to those saying we're interested in seeing more.
Incidentally, there's precedent for the differing appearances of Summoned Beasts, though not in VIII - in X, you see one of the summoners summon something that looks suspiciously like a yeti, and is probably his version of Shiva.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I don't recall that. I most likely dismissed that as being one of the aeons that the PCs didn't get, since there were supposed to be many, many more that had been lost or intentionally hidden. There's definitely room in the X lore for different appearances with how big a deal is made about the bond between the summoner and aeon and how it affects them, not to mention what happens to the final aeon when Yu Yevon takes control.
 
Mashadarof402 said:
It would have helped to mention that at the start. And link it too.

Otherwise new readers are left with the impression that this is a fresh new OC like I was.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I guess? At this point in the narrative though, the link is extremely tenuous if it exists at all. I had planned on linking this to Full Moon Blues, but stories are living things, and they don't always go the way you think they will. In any case, without a Saiyan's biology altering my mental processes and with the Guardian Forces exerting a different kind of pressure, the "OC" is very different mentally here than he was then.
 
nemo1685 said:
Just adding my voice to those saying we're interested in seeing more.
Incidentally, there's precedent for the differing appearances of Summoned Beasts, though not in VIII - in X, you see one of the summoners summon something that looks suspiciously like a yeti, and is probably his version of Shiva.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Wendigo was just a palette swap of the Ogre and Bashura mobs from the Calm Lands and Gagazet. It was "summoned" in the same way as all the other mobs that those types of soldiers "summoned" throughout the following act, not in the same way that Aeons are.
 
SwiftRosenthal said:
The Wendigo was just a palette swap of the Ogre and Bashura mobs from the Calm Lands and Gagazet. It was "summoned" in the same way as all the other mobs that those types of soldiers "summoned" throughout the following act, not in the same way that Aeons are.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Not that one. There's another one - same appearance - in the last scene in Home, where all the summoners have brought out their Aeons and explained they're not interested in the Al Bhed's solution.

...actually, I went back and watched that scene, and that *might* be a random fiend spawn, not another summon. It's hard to tell.
 
RoyalNoises said:
I guess? At this point in the narrative though, the link is extremely tenuous if it exists at all. I had planned on linking this to Full Moon Blues, but stories are living things, and they don't always go the way you think they will. In any case, without a Saiyan's biology altering my mental processes and with the Guardian Forces exerting a different kind of pressure, the "OC" is very different mentally here than he was then.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So it's not actually a prequel and a separate story that you were trying to turn into a prequel?

...

I shouldn't have to point out that it's not a particularly good way of writing a cohesive story right?
 
nemo1685 said:
Not that one. There's another one - same appearance - in the last scene in Home, where all the summoners have brought out their Aeons and explained they're not interested in the Al Bhed's solution.

...actually, I went back and watched that scene, and that *might* be a random fiend spawn, not another summon. It's hard to tell.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I always interpreted it as a spawned fiend. Isaaru summoned his Ifrit instead and killed the thing while everyone was busy talking.
 
Mashadarof402 said:
So it's not actually a prequel and a separate story that you were trying to turn into a prequel?

...

I shouldn't have to point out that it's not a particularly good way of writing a cohesive story right?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Cohesion is for the weak. If you don't like it when an author flies by the seat of their clown pants then you're following the wrong guy.
 
RoyalNoises said:
You know I really thought that the plot direction here would generate more discussion
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I like the story and I hope it continues, but at the moment I don't see no plot, granted it is 100% possible I'm just completely missing it.

So it might be you just need to have a another chapter or so out before people really start talking

Edit: is it okay to ask for a link to the previous story if one had not already been given and I just missed it.
 
Last edited:
forgotten said:
I like the story and I hope it continues, but at the moment I don't see no plot, granted it is 100% possible I'm just completely missing it.

So it might be you just need to have a another chapter or so out before people really start talking

Edit: is it okay to ask for a link to the previous story if one had not already been given and I just missed it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's in my signature, as Full Moon Blues.
 
RoyalNoises said:
Cohesion is for the weak. If you don't like it when an author flies by the seat of their clown pants then you're following the wrong guy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Mashadarof402 said:
*shrug*

Your funeral.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I had to take some time and think to come up with a way to describe this that might be helpful.

You introduced a new, original character without giving a build up to his already high stats, and stated that the character would be better developed if we first read the prior story. You then stated that this character may diverge from the established continuity of that previous work, and thus did not want to link it in the opening post. The problem becomes that you are relying on character growth established elsewhere instead of establishing it here while simultaneously saying that the two stories are only loosely linked. I am quite aware that stories often take the reins and run off in a different direction than intended. If that is truly your fear, make the intial link something like, "This is a prequel to {Story Name} but it might diverge into AU. You have been warned." That lets you be flexible while also getting us to look at the work you've already done on the character.

Hopefully, this criticism will prove constructive.
 
Wyrd said:
I had to take some time and think to come up with a way to describe this that might be helpful.

You introduced a new, original character without giving a build up to his already high stats, and stated that the character would be better developed if we first read the prior story. You then stated that this character may diverge from the established continuity of that previous work, and thus did not want to link it in the opening post. The problem becomes that you are relying on character growth established elsewhere instead of establishing it here while simultaneously saying that the two stories are only loosely linked. I am quite aware that stories often take the reins and run off in a different direction than intended. If that is truly your fear, make the intial link something like, "This is a prequel to {Story Name} but it might diverge into AU. You have been warned." That lets you be flexible while also getting us to look at the work you've already done on the character.

Hopefully, this criticism will prove constructive.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well, to be clear, the "High stats" Are entirely in the form of experience, he retains zero power from the first time around except an improvement to physical fitness completely within the bounds of human norms.

But do you think if I did that NOW it would actually improve things with regards to audience engagement?
 
RoyalNoises said:
Well, to be clear, the "High stats" Are entirely in the form of experience, he retains zero power from the first time around except an improvement to physical fitness completely within the bounds of human norms.

But do you think if I did that NOW it would actually improve things with regards to audience engagement?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Establishing the personality is as much, if not more important than establishing the growth curve of his abilities. Adding that link now would probably help, but nowhere near as much as having it there from the beginning, as I'm sure a number of people have already discarded this story and just not left you any feedback. I say that more to encourage such links on future stories. I believe there is very little chance adding a link would be to the detriment of your readership, and a high chance it will improve matters for you, given how little has been written to date.
 
Yeah I'm gonna call it here, this fic is dead for now. If I choose to revive it, it will be a complete restart.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top