Ex Machina (Worm Tinker AU)

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I'd like to use an example I've used before, the FPS game designer.

So we have a man who is working on a new FPS, and is the primary sound designer, so he begins to work on selecting the sounds. For his research, he researches guns, goes to gun shows, even goes to a range once or twice. To his brother, it looks like his sibling has an unsettling new fascination with guns. He calls the police, afraid his brother is going to do something drastic.

Two weeks later, the game designer comes to his brother's house and punches him in the face despite it breaking his pacifist oath.

That is how I justify to my father me owning several AIRSOFT guns, due to my work with gaming companies on 3D modeling.
 
People aren't pure good or pure evil. Somebody can do terrible things(like, say, be a major part of the E88), yet still do good things(like have a good family, friends, and all that).

That is the theme of this piece. To show that characters are complex in more ways than just being competent villains.

It's not to promote neonazism. It's not to promote racism. It's to show that people are both good and bad, even the neonazis and the racists.
 
In the interest of moving this discussion in a direction that won't result in the mods descending upon us with "Ride of the Valkyries" playing in the background. (A mental image I would enjoy on other occasions.)

Is Imp's tampering with Rune's room enough to raise some stranger flags? I imagine Victor's been in the game long enough that he may pick up on it if no one owns up to flipping the books around.

If they do pick up on it, what kind of response would the go for? Move to a different hideout? Install CCTV cameras? Have Taylor cook up something?
 
In the interest of moving this discussion in a direction that won't result in the mods descending upon us with "Ride of the Valkyries" playing in the background. (A mental image I would enjoy on other occasions.)

Is Imp's tampering with Rune's room enough to raise some stranger flags? I imagine Victor's been in the game long enough that he may pick up on it if no one owns up to flipping the books around.

If they do pick up on it, what kind of response would the go for? Move to a different hideout? Install CCTV cameras? Have Taylor cook up something?
I vote for giving Lisa's new arm a remote control that makes her punch herself in the face. Because vengeance should be petty.
 
Is Imp's tampering with Rune's room enough to raise some stranger flags? I imagine Victor's been in the game long enough that he may pick up on it if no one owns up to flipping the books around.
The books are very obvious.

If they do pick up on it, what kind of response would the go for? Move to a different hideout? Install CCTV cameras? Have Taylor cook up something?
Traps with paralytic needles, then literary gift-wrapping her back to Tattletale as a message. They won't do anything really bad to Aisha as they really need Tattletale's help.
 
Replace everyone's respiratory systems, pump the place full of arsenic.

Oh, we're not trying to kill her?

Then motion detectors, everywhere.
 
"But," Lisa said, ignoring Aisha's comment as she turned the corner onto the street where their temporary base had been set up, "If I know anything, these factions will probably not end up playing nice with one another, especially with a little… encouragement, you get me?" Lisa asked her passenger.

Aisha slowly nodded her head, a grin to match Lisa's marking its way along her countenance.

"And when that inevitably happens," Lisa said, emphasizing the word to get her point across, "Well, I know which of the three I'd rather work with to fix and run the city once it's all over. We just need to make sure the deck is stacked in their favor, so they have all the resources they need to come out on top."
God, she is such a bitch.
 
Why does that strike you as Tattletale being bitchy? She's simply planning to back one of the E88 factions in its inevitable conflict with the other 2. I think it's pretty obvious she intends to back the faction that contains the Tinker who's going to literally give her a hand.
Some people find manipulative people annoying. I honestly revel in out-manipulating them as a true servant of Tzeentch
 
Alert: Ahem
ahem So, after perusing the report queue, I've noticed a sudden explosion of reports about this thread.

So here it is. Some of you are clearly too spooked to post your criticism in the thread, and would prefer to lob it into the reports queue in the hope that the Mods will show up and give voice to your objections.

Debating isn't Who Wants to Be A Millionaire. The report queue isn't your "Phone A Friend" button. If you have a disagreement, get some argumentative chops and use 'em.
 
*facepalm* Really guys?

Try to save reports for the posts that need it? Pretty please?

Stories with human Nazis aren't against the rules as long as they aren't serving as an outlet for the author's view on racism.
 
Fundamentally this story has a problem, and that problem is nazis. I read quite a way into it, and despite some lip service to the idea the story didn't seem to potray its protagonist's relationship with the Empire-88 as all that bad a thing.

Now I'm not saying that you or your readers are inherently bad. If you want to write something like this, though, you don't get a presumption of innocence regarding the themes of your work. Because, at the end of the day, if a white supremacist wrote a worm fanfic or was looking for one to read it'd look an awful lot like this one.
..Wait. o_O

...Did you just ignore @Generic_Generica to continue the topic after they (another Mod) and the OP asked people to knock it off?

I'm confused, how does reporting work in this case? Do we report you to yourself? :confused:
 
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Why does that strike you as Tattletale being bitchy? She's simply planning to back one of the E88 factions in its inevitable conflict with the other 2. I think it's pretty obvious she intends to back the faction that contains the Tinker who's going to literally give her a hand.
I think you're missing the subtext. If she were to help out like a proper ally instead of secretly turning them against each other, then that conflict would not be inevitable. She's backstabbing the Empire as a whole after defecting from Coil into their care, and she's doing it with the intention of destroying 2/3rds of their capes so that her own faction ends up being ascendant in the new power structure. It's a power grab, she's smashing the table into fractions so that 8 can get a bigger chunk of the pie each instead of 16 having smaller chunks of a larger pie. Further, she's doing it at a time when they cannot afford internal disunity. Because Butcher and the Fallen are poking around, and while they got punk'd in canon they are in fact extremely serious/scary/annoying enemies to have to deal with.

That's why I'm calling her a bitch. She knows exactly what she's doing, and if her allies knew they'd quickly turn into her enemies.
 
Stop: Okay, okay
okay, okay I feel like people have misunderstood a few things, including my brother administrator's most recent post.

First of all, there is a misunderstanding of what Generic Generica's previous warning meant. Very simply, it was 'don't start a fight about this, discuss' not 'do not criticise the story or raise concerns about it'. Those are quite different things. We are quite opposed to fighting, but we open to honest critique and for readers to share their thoughts. Personally, I believe that that the individual experiences we have with a work are the core of art; structurally, this is an open forum where all users can comment.

This doesn't have so much to do with whether Banjofrog is, himself, secretly a Nazi. I don't think he is. He seems like a nice enough chap, really. But he does have an issue, as another staff member put it, that 'he wants to avoid politics in an AU where Taylor becomes a nazi'. You cannot escape the fact the premise of this story is that teenaged girl joins a group of criminal Neo-Nazis. You can make that as apolitical as you like, you can present that story without yourself being a Neo-Nazi or being sympathetic to their ideals, but at the same time you can't exactly be shocked when people read it and then get tilted. That's their prerogative as readers, and the premise is controversial.

So you have to deal with that. This is what LordSquishy means: if you don't like Tekomandor's critique then either suck it up or respond with your own intellectual impressions. Discussion is valuable. On the previous page I saw someone express an honest opinion on how they could not continue with the story given the current political climate. The response after that was something along the lines of 'UGH *rolls eyes*'.

To Banjofrog's credit I believe that he understands where we're coming from without needing to be told. I've often noticed that fans are often more protective of a work than its author. This is a thing from which they derive enjoyment, and so they dont' want that to be meddled with by dastardly negative opinions. However for Banjofrog and authors generally, this is a labour. They think about these things so they're aware of the implications.

Anyway, with any luck we won't have to return here. So that we are absolutely clear:

1. Critique of a story is valid on SV.
2. If you don't like the critique then say something about, as the staff is not your parent.
3. Deliver your critique and counter-critique thoughtfully, politely and with an open mind.
 
"Taylor becomes a Nazi" ... Is an utterly ridiculous caricature of this fic. Utterly, absurdly, unsupportably ridiculous.

If anything it's quite the opposite; we see the humanization of members of the E88 along with a reduction of their ideology. These are still by and large unpleasant people -- they are all criminals for one reason or another -- but we see a Rune who basically had no choice but to join the family business, a version if Victor and Othala which has relegated them to supporting roles with literally no action or even hinted at thoughts supporting the idea that they are clinging to the E88 Nazism.

So ... What is this? At worst we can support seeing this fic as a redemption fic for Rune.

As for "needing to work your way up to not being called a racist" if you use Nazi or Nazi-affiliated characters as main characters (and never throughout tens of thousands of words show being racist a a good thing to be, let alone reinforce racist ideology)... I have only two questions to ask people supporting such a position; are you still in grade school? And in any case, would you please stop ruining it for the rest of us?
 
Fundamentally this story has a problem, and that problem is nazis. I read quite a way into it, and despite some lip service to the idea the story didn't seem to portray its protagonist's relationship with the Empire-88 as all that bad a thing.

Now I'm not saying that you or your readers are inherently bad. If you want to write something like this, though, you don't get a presumption of innocence regarding the themes of your work. Because, at the end of the day, if a white supremacist wrote a worm fanfic or was looking for one to read it'd look an awful lot like this one.

I think you're being wildly unreasonable here, and I think you got there by misunderstanding what Dystopian fiction is all about. Yes, Worm is highly Dystopian, and yes, this particular fanfiction belongs in the same genre. But to imply that an author should be held accountable or suspect because people do immoral or unethical things in their fictional work is both ridiculous and insulting. Dystopian literature is, at its core, concerned with the exploration of a world in which doing bad things is, or at least seems, necessary. Perhaps even more importantly, it's goal is frequently to cause the reader to experience the context involved with making those immoral or unethical decisions.

In Ex Machina, the main character, from whose perspective the story is told, is a highly traumatized, socially isolated, mentally unstable teenager. The kind of long-term physical and emotional abuse she goes through in canon (and thus, this story as well) would legally qualify as torture in any reasonable real-world justice system. It's important to keep this in mind when discussing Ex Machina because the end result is a protagonist who is emotionally compromised and a narrator that is very much unreliable. So when you say things like:

Fundamentally this story has a problem, and that problem is nazis. I read quite a way into it, and despite some lip service to the idea the story didn't seem to portray its protagonist's relationship with the Empire-88 as all that bad a thing.

...it makes me question if we were reading the same story. Who is going to speak up and provide Taylor that reasonable counter point to joining her Nazi friends? Her father, who she barely interacts with and hasn't provided moral support in nearly two years? Sure he tries in the story, but he possesses neither the emotional context nor the required rapport with Taylor at the time to get through to the (emotionally compromised) teenager protagonist with a trauma-enforced mistrust of authority figures. Frankly, him successfully convincing her to do a complete 180 and join the Wards or something in that vein would make no sense from a literary perspective. It would also reek of that same politicizing that you seem to be on edge about. In other words, when a major theme of a story is exploring how a character's context could lead to them being friends with nazi's, it's disingenuous to insinuate that the author should be judged for including nazism in the story. Inclusion of those themes does not indicate support for nazism, nor does it implicate the author.

Of course, I strongly suspect what you're really saying is that, as far as you're concerned, the inclusion of racism in any story, regardless of context, without subsequently beating the audience over the head with repeated reminders that Racism Is Bad, is the same as expressing support for that Racism. You are, in effect, advocating for the same politicized storytelling methods (i.e. all authors must express explicit agreement with your ideals, or not express at all) that you seem to believe exists in Ex Machina. Should we apply this to other works that include actions that we find objectionable? Should we label Orwell as an authoritarian and a despot because the Dystopian system in 1984 ultimately won? Oh, but the main character wasn't doing bad things! So how about Starship Troopers? Heinlein included blatant fascist and xenophobic themes in Starship Troopers, and the main character was the metaphorical Captain America. Do we stop reading his work because he might have believed differently than we do? Oh, but maybe it's different when the theme is specifically racism? How about Divergent? Or even the Hunger Games, teenage angst aside?

Now, I'm NOT arguing that Dysopian fiction should be immune to criticism merely because of its stated goal. I AM arguing that there is a difference between expressing support for an ideological opinion and exploring the thought process behind that opinion. If you think Ex Machina is guilty of the former, by all means speak up and explain why. But when you hand-wave over the story and generalize...

Because, at the end of the day, if a white supremacist wrote a worm fanfic or was looking for one to read it'd look an awful lot like this one.

it sounds to me like you're missing the point. Because I too have read Ex Machina, and I was able to follow the main character's thought process through each chapter. Her actions were understandable in context, and it's that context that I think you're glossing over in favor of decrying anyone who puts fleshed-out nazi characters in their story.
 
Okay, today has been a tad high-strung for all of us. I feel I need to add something, correct a few errors on my part, and hopefully bring this whole affair to a close.

First off, I am not a Nazi, just making that clear. I would prefer that, in the future I be neither referred to as, nor implied to be, one.

Second off, i need to apologize for my post earlier this morning, while it (mostly) conveyed my feelings at the time, it was fairly raw, as I had just woken up and seen the drama that had taken place and made something of a knee-jerk reaction in trying to contain it. I am immensely proud of growing up 'smack dab in the middle of freedomland,' and all the wonderful people and opportunities that has afforded me. Unfortunately, one of the things my upbringing also conditioned me to do is to avoid with all my might, any sort of political discussion. This likely stems from the region's tendency to be worryingly politically homogeneous, and for any sort of dissenting opinion to be treated with ridicule and immediately shut down.

Ford is completely correct in his accusation of my wanting to quash any sort of political discussion, and I need to apologize for that, for my unfair assumption that you can't have a civil discussion without resorting to petty name-calling and hateful language. I am deeply sorry, to all of you, for my misguided attempt to stop the discussion I then went on to espouse about wanting to cultivate.

Thirdly, I also need to apologize for possibly seeming like I was trying to stay out of the discussion by not commenting and contributing. I want you all to know that I read and have read every single comment posted to this thread (usually many times over), and try my hardest to rate every comment that I feel in any way contributes to the discussion. Between my mostly reading the thread on mobile throughout the day (a platform I don't feel comfortable making a well-reasoned argument on) and my fear of 'fanning the flames' as it were, I regrettably remained quiet during this period, for that too, I apologize.

Fourth, I need to thank all of you, every single one of you. This is just a story that I write in my free time because I enjoy it, and because I want to become a better writer. Seeing this sort of reaction, both the criticisms and the responses made humbles me deeply, knowing that people care enough about my work to argue in (or against) it's favor. Thank you all, there is truly no feeling in the world like knowing that someone cares about something I've poured my time into creating. You're the reason I keep writing and posting, because seeing people discuss what I've made makes me so, so happy.

Fifth, thank you especially all of you who've made beautiful, well-reasoned comments about the themes, motivations, and actions of the characters and story. To Wobulator who so eloquently gave the theme of the work, to Oceanus and Pax and Cid and all the others who've debated and discussed like rational people. This story belongs as much to all of you as it does to me.

This has been an interesting day for all of us, and while it certainly contained many twists and turns, I think most of us came out the better for it, though I've no burning desire to repeat it any time soon.

Thank you once again to all of you, you're the reason I do what I do. Good night.
 
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Last thought--the other thing to remember is that Taylor falling in line and clinging to the first organization that opens their arms to her is perfectly in line with the original work. This is not an endorsement of teenaged criminality or being a Neo-Nazi or being a drug pusher or a pan-Asian flesh peddler. This is a reflection of a suicidal girl's last hope smoothing out the large flaws in whatever group she joins for her own subconscious well-being. Now, yes, just as in canon Taylor ended up with the Reasonable Criminals to accelerate the process but Victor/Othala/Rune are enough of a blank slate to make them not just be cardboard cutouts and still be canon compliant. Further, the story isn't whitewashing (ha) the E88's deeds nor did it suddenly make them karma houdinis just because Taylor joined.
 
Tekomandor basically called the fic a Nazi propaganda piece, which is hilariously removed from what it actually is and, frankly, downright insulting to the author. I'm not surprised Banjofrog prefers to avoid political debate if this is the kind of hysterical accusations he has to put up with.
 
I really like this interpretation of Rune so far.
she's mature. It seemed apparent to me that she was still prejudiced, but she had the restraint to keep it in line for someone who isn't.
She strikes me as more similar to the racism of Purity, instead of a generic nazi stereotype, or naive brainwashed puppet.

Thanks for writing, I'm looking forward to more.

Rune is pretty bad........I'm pretty sure she's committed her share of hate crimes.........I've know people like her when schools integrated when I was a kid. They are nice salt of the earth until someone of another race comes around and then the nastiness comes out. Yeah I get that Taylor wants to make friends but how long would it be before Taylor is caught out in a situation where she can't walk away from?

Purity is the same, she'd still be with Kaiser if he could keep his zipper up. They are Nazis.......that includes going out and beating, raping and killing people who are, "other". This is going to be interesting. But it kinda makes sense that when you cyborg up you lose inhibitions.
 
I'll just throw my two cents in. I really don't think the author himself is racist or a Nazi or anything like that, and I don't think there was anything in the story to suggest that. However, there has been a bit of an issue with the presentation, but I'll try my best to be constructive and civil.

"If you're friends with the Nazis, you're gonna have a bad time."

Except that hasn't really happened yet. So far, it seems more like "everybody is against Taylor, except the friendly neighborhood Nazis!" It's naive to think that a story needs to overtly celebrate racism for it to push that agenda, and I think its a disservice to the issue to reduce any problems other people might have with such an overly snarky and sarcastic attack.

Fleshing out characters is one thing, but there's a difference between giving depth and whitewashing, and it's hard to deny that this fic depicts Nazis very sympathetically, while simultaneously doing almost nothing to depict the bad parts that come with it. It's a fine line to tread, but it comes with the territory with writing about such a sensitive topic.

Stories about wayward youths falling in with the wrong crowd are very common, but there's always a dramatic turn where the hero confronts the consequences of his poor decisions (or the death and rebirth phase for you Campbellian fans). In this story, every time there's been an opportunity for Taylor to confront her choices, the story instead double downs on the "only the Nazis are there for you" angle.

Obviously, I don't think the author is racist or anything like that, but I keep waiting for the dramatic turn and it still looks like there's no hints of it happening yet after ~25 chapters. So, either we're dealing with a problem of execution, or its a rather cavalier whitewashing of literally Nazis.

I guess the serial format of fanfiction compounds the problem. When you get to the end of American History X, you see that being a Nazi really didn't work out that great for John Connor. With fanfics you always run the risk of people quitting the story as its getting written, or the author abandons it, and you are just left with an impression of the story where the main message was actually antithetical with the authors intent. If I stopped reading this story today, that would be the impression that I'm left with.

But does a story really need to even have that turn? I mean, it's just a fanfic on the Internet. Who cares if it doesn't. But if it doesn't, then we just have to judge the story by where it stands, and I don't think it's unreasonable to take issue with the depiction of Nazis as the "good guys" in this story. It's already using Taylor as the protagonist, which the audience already has an enormous amount of prebuilt trust and support for, so much so that they often root for her even when she's murdering her school girl classmates in other fics, or joining the Nazis as is the case here. People often underestimate how powerful that type of tribalism is, even with the recent political climate. After all, the most insidious pieces of propaganda aren't the ones that are obvious, but the ones that are subtle.
 
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