Even if the multiplier is twice as good for spells we've gone behind on, which seems unlikely, it's still better to make an artifact for Greater Refining. That's just how the arithmetic for adding linear increases to multiplier work. It's generally a lot more efficient to boost the lowest multiplier.
-
Going forward, links to content from Twitter (now X) will no longer be embedded. Pre-existing links should not be affected.
Even Further Beyond [Complete]
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Even if the multiplier is twice as good for spells we've gone behind on, which seems unlikely, it's still better to make an artifact for Greater Refining. That's just how the arithmetic for adding linear increases to multiplier work. It's generally a lot more efficient to boost the lowest multiplier.
- Location
- Where am I?
Hmm. Dear old Bae dodged his doom by fusing with us. Is it too much of a stretch to assume the same here? We've been given many hints that there is something going beneath the surface. Also hints that there may not, in fact, be a lich here. Seeing where this is going?
So, on those terms, I vote...
[X] Give to Suizhen
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral
My reasoning is thus: I dont want to interfere with the local lich right now. I suspect that this is, in fact, the worst moment to approach the patriarch- if they are being subsumed by a lich/colluding with one they will be exceptionally unlikely to do anything other then attack. Taking help from a lich is treason of the highest order; we are too powerful/influential to be cowed/silenced so we must be killed.
We have sort of missed the opportunity to go frontal assault at this point, in my view. The reality-former has recovered, at least in part. The lich will help them against the intruders (us) and to use Ring social we'd need to sneak past them (and our illusion does not escape his sight...)
More then that, even if we take the pearl ourselves I am worried about our lackeys (in addition it is something of a waste of the pearl- doesnt take advantage of our elixir, will be more useful later when we are of a cultivation stage to use it etc, Suizhen could use it to unlock hax). I also don't think it will be a good bargaining chip for the patriarch- the energies are too refined to help with foundations. It aids us little to use it personally as it is such a waste, and not necessary. Maybe from the blurb on the pearl using it to go another step on true alchemist is possible, but I am really loathe to wasting artifice just to minmax this particular moment, its spectacularly inefficient... when we are perfectly specced rn to go and chill with Xylitemmerral. Remember artifice takes time. Also we lose the possibility to use that concept again/it is much weakened the second time. So we are wasting that cultivation stage's progress. Inscribing beyond organ refining is DEFINITELY a time-sink, so not for this current moment I think.
Let the local lich do their thing- when we come back and they are less confrontational we can negotiate with them. Or even better, we come back once the patriarch is feeling stronger. This is when their alliance is at its most tenuous, as the patriarch cannot let the lich go without risking everything hes sacrificed and worked for being blown away. If we help them then.
So what then?
Go to army!lich. Learn his force multipliers- or kill them and hunt down their phylactery by force. We are AMAZINGLY suited to this task- Give the pearl to Suizhen- this makes our previous vote count twice essentially (get EYES running + value from mastermind preventing enemies during scamming). Sounds like Blood sign is going strong there. Also sounds like that artefact is something we could use... go there as an ally and sudden but inevitable betrayal? Or go there to defend the town?
What triggered this rampage?
We are at the same combat level as the other cultivators... with this boost suizen can help us out, as well as perceive things we cannot. Ming may be trailing a little but that's no real issue, we've indulged her recently with the ego stage so im sure she wont mind. (that much
)
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Sure, if the Artifact in this case is a linear increase to the multiplier and it isn't enough better on Beyond spells and within the purview that Greater Refining affects which is more narrow than Potentiation and Quickening then of course you're correct; it's not the arithmetic I'm objecting to, it's the assumptions you carry it out from, which are at least as speculative as my objections to them and so shouldn't be presented as a certainty.
Yes, because Baenlixnaire was choosing the form of his Doom not dodging it and was able to do so due to his ability to see Fate which we know other liches don't have. It does seem quite likely that this is his Doom, though.
Last edited:
[X] Consume Personally
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral
[X] Consume Personally
The immediate future is likely to involve combat (especially when combined with investigating the Arch-Terrorist), and this provides a stronger boost than upgrading either of our lackeys. It also provides fuel for artifact creation once the combat is done.
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral
This is a time-critical opportunity that could be resolved within a few days. The Ravens' enemies only plan to act within three months, so that situation could still be there when we return. No big loss if it's resolved, since we are interested in the Lich the Leader is guarding, not them. Better for us if he has vacated the dungeon, one way or another.
The immediate future is likely to involve combat (especially when combined with investigating the Arch-Terrorist), and this provides a stronger boost than upgrading either of our lackeys. It also provides fuel for artifact creation once the combat is done.
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral
This is a time-critical opportunity that could be resolved within a few days. The Ravens' enemies only plan to act within three months, so that situation could still be there when we return. No big loss if it's resolved, since we are interested in the Lich the Leader is guarding, not them. Better for us if he has vacated the dungeon, one way or another.
- Location
- Where am I?
Can I suggest that we do not take Consume and XyMETAL together. That is very wasteful considering our current power- we can avoid the zombies with illusion or just run past them, and against the lich we have a HUGE advantage.
Either chose Save or chose EYES if you want to pass. We only really need the power boost if we think we can trade it to the patriarch (VERY DOUBTFUL as that would mean allowing us to know of collusion with the lich...) or to boost our personal power before confronting them (very wasteful as it does not benefit from most of our multipliers, would be more efficient later AND could be sold for reagents that do benefit from our multipliers). We just do not need it right now... unless eyes could give us a large advantage.
I really don't know why people are choosing Consume Personally and Investigate Xylitemmerral
What's the advantage of this combination?
Either chose Save or chose EYES if you want to pass. We only really need the power boost if we think we can trade it to the patriarch (VERY DOUBTFUL as that would mean allowing us to know of collusion with the lich...) or to boost our personal power before confronting them (very wasteful as it does not benefit from most of our multipliers, would be more efficient later AND could be sold for reagents that do benefit from our multipliers). We just do not need it right now... unless eyes could give us a large advantage.
I really don't know why people are choosing Consume Personally and Investigate Xylitemmerral
What's the advantage of this combination?
Last edited:
We were explicitly warned that his super-artifact may have esoteric powers that we aren't immune to, and Dao-Cleaving combat power isn't currently enough to handle his hordes. It's basically improving our chances to succeed on that particular mission, as well as with the Raven's leader when we get back. In addition, it's fuel for the Forge when we are done fighting, since we'll have to go back down to Peak Organ Refining for Philosopher King anyway.
There still seems to be this assumption that Nameless is good at finding things or people rather than being profoundly useless at it.
What do people expect to do if we catch up with this lich? He doesn't seem to be in a negotiating mood, and he's too powerful for us to fight. He clearly has also learned better than to use direct Diagram attack magic, so the Ring doesn't help as much as you'd think.
By contrast, this is a perfect moment to interrupt the Raven's Sect Leader. Everyday we wait now he's going to get stronger. We're at the point of maximum leverage over him that we'll ever be.
You presented your assumption as certainty. We don't even know what the degree of increase in strength there is for creating an artifact for a spell is. Is it 10%? 50%? We just don't know. What evidence we do have is that an artifact that boosts a spell that purely boosts only Cultivation speed will give a bigger multiplier than an artifact that boosts Quickening.
What do people expect to do if we catch up with this lich? He doesn't seem to be in a negotiating mood, and he's too powerful for us to fight. He clearly has also learned better than to use direct Diagram attack magic, so the Ring doesn't help as much as you'd think.
By contrast, this is a perfect moment to interrupt the Raven's Sect Leader. Everyday we wait now he's going to get stronger. We're at the point of maximum leverage over him that we'll ever be.
You presented your assumption as certainty. We don't even know what the degree of increase in strength there is for creating an artifact for a spell is. Is it 10%? 50%? We just don't know. What evidence we do have is that an artifact that boosts a spell that purely boosts only Cultivation speed will give a bigger multiplier than an artifact that boosts Quickening.
- Location
- Where am I?
Also, one other thing about [ ] Consume Personally
Um...
...
"Not worried about Zang Kong's schemes? The Monster of Utility wields foresight like a scythe; the Elder Beast of Reason nurtures plots within plots... wouldn't you sleep easier knowing Zang Kong has had no vector whatsoever by which to get his hooks into yourself or your lieutenants, no matter how unlikely?"
I'm pretty scared. What I find most worrying is that it is only under Suizen's option that we see
"*Suizhen seems confident that there is nothing even Zang Kong can do to compromise the Pearls; by their very nature they are 100% pure."
This makes me think that her eyes can counter the effects... or make them less likely to be compromised.
I find it pretty persuasive that Kong wouldn't allow such a valuable gem go free without some kind of consequence. This intensifies my orochomaru feelings... cursed mark anyone?????
Suizhen is the only one I trust with it- SASUKE BARREL ARC GO!
Um...
...
"Not worried about Zang Kong's schemes? The Monster of Utility wields foresight like a scythe; the Elder Beast of Reason nurtures plots within plots... wouldn't you sleep easier knowing Zang Kong has had no vector whatsoever by which to get his hooks into yourself or your lieutenants, no matter how unlikely?"
I'm pretty scared. What I find most worrying is that it is only under Suizen's option that we see
"*Suizhen seems confident that there is nothing even Zang Kong can do to compromise the Pearls; by their very nature they are 100% pure."
This makes me think that her eyes can counter the effects... or make them less likely to be compromised.
I find it pretty persuasive that Kong wouldn't allow such a valuable gem go free without some kind of consequence. This intensifies my orochomaru feelings... cursed mark anyone?????
Suizhen is the only one I trust with it- SASUKE BARREL ARC GO!
Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
- Location
- USA
[X] Give to Suizhen
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral
I'm incredibly torn between giving the Pearl to Suizhen and using it ourself. Our strongest enemies seem to be around 5, which seems harsh for Nameless's 4.25*6, but much more doable for a 4.75*6 person. On the other hand, even if the Archterrorist is thrashing the Dao Cleaving garrison, our ring immunity and Force dispel should give us a type advantage. And our Unlayered Ego Barrier might be protective against the nonconsensual sacrifice artifact. We'd have Suizhen at 3.5*4, which might be good since he has so many minions.
But even with the +loyalty and special eyes, for the Overlord, the best power is personal strength. But special eyes. Ugh.
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral
I'm incredibly torn between giving the Pearl to Suizhen and using it ourself. Our strongest enemies seem to be around 5, which seems harsh for Nameless's 4.25*6, but much more doable for a 4.75*6 person. On the other hand, even if the Archterrorist is thrashing the Dao Cleaving garrison, our ring immunity and Force dispel should give us a type advantage. And our Unlayered Ego Barrier might be protective against the nonconsensual sacrifice artifact. We'd have Suizhen at 3.5*4, which might be good since he has so many minions.
But even with the +loyalty and special eyes, for the Overlord, the best power is personal strength. But special eyes. Ugh.
As a side note, I think we know that the really valuable spells around here were invented by someone who invented a spell we know already. The Arch-Terrorist isn't them.
Suizhen is by far the most likely to be compromised by it. The Pearl could easily be perfectly safe for other Cultivators and indeed be pure by its very nature, but the energy could easily trigger a backdoor engineered into her bloodline by her ancestor.
I very strongly suspect that the Beast of Teason didn't upgrade his bloodline out of altruism. I would expect any features he built in to be at best double edged. And while if Suizen allied with the heroine I've no doubt that Fate would ensure any such shackles would be broken, the same almost certainly doesn't apply to us.
The Dao Cleaving garrison should be effectively immune to direct offensive Diagram Magic anyway, due to being too fast to hit and too resilient to take much damage if they are hit. That means that he's learned to create non-Diagram based attacks that can challenge multiple Dao Cleaving level opponents at once.
This means that the Ring is very unlikely to give the degree of advantage that is being assumed.
We should assume that at low and possibly even at high Dao Cleaving we're just going to be another face in the crowd. We know that Reality Forming is the level at which Cultivators become dominant against liches, which is presumably why he attacked somewhere without one.
Suizhen is by far the most likely to be compromised by it. The Pearl could easily be perfectly safe for other Cultivators and indeed be pure by its very nature, but the energy could easily trigger a backdoor engineered into her bloodline by her ancestor.
I very strongly suspect that the Beast of Teason didn't upgrade his bloodline out of altruism. I would expect any features he built in to be at best double edged. And while if Suizen allied with the heroine I've no doubt that Fate would ensure any such shackles would be broken, the same almost certainly doesn't apply to us.
The Dao Cleaving garrison should be effectively immune to direct offensive Diagram Magic anyway, due to being too fast to hit and too resilient to take much damage if they are hit. That means that he's learned to create non-Diagram based attacks that can challenge multiple Dao Cleaving level opponents at once.
This means that the Ring is very unlikely to give the degree of advantage that is being assumed.
We should assume that at low and possibly even at high Dao Cleaving we're just going to be another face in the crowd. We know that Reality Forming is the level at which Cultivators become dominant against liches, which is presumably why he attacked somewhere without one.
Last edited:
- Location
- Where am I?
You misunderstand me. I know it is a trap. But she is the sasuke expy. The chosen of fate. Thousand thousands of fangirls weep at her every swish of hair, brooding moment of Vengeance. No doubt when we face Kong he will say "You walked straight into my Trap Card!" and think hes won. But that's the thing. Suizhen cannot and will not fall so easily. They are explicitly said to be "unique powers". What's the point in taking on
In some ways, by walking into the jaws of a lion, you control his behaviour- if you know what they intend to do, you control the future...
Whereas we don't have the eyes with which to fight back. We'd be far more compromised, or to put it in a different way, we'd be equally compromised but unable to act against it- whereas Suizhen would Protagonist powers, HO!
It is almost certainly a part of her character arc.
Also in a slightly more cynical way, surely it is better to compromise the lackey then ourselves... I'm not down for a battle in the center of the mind with a titan. No matter how confident we may be in our perfected ego barrier, that's the kind of inner weakness that loses you fights.
On a side note, who else thinks that the entire Overgrowth is a manifestation of Kong's titan level reality warping effects? I suspect it is a sensory architecture too... what's the point in running experiments if you cannot observe your results? I can't wait for the "Kill King Kong" arc.
Last edited:
Her intended character arc is to be a lackey of the Heroine. Not of us. By the time we might face Kong (and I'd prefer him as an ally to Shuizen), Fate will almost certainly be our, and by extension her, enemy. We can't rely on her being given protagonist powers to resolve her plot when she's not the protagonist, she's a bit player or mini-boss that fleshes out the cast of the Dark Lord's hordes.
Most importantly, time burns. How many months of effective personal development time does this save or give us before the Heroine awakens. That's almost the only relevant metric to judge our choices. With our build, it seems that our minions are always going to be irrelevant in combat. Them staying a stage below in objective power makes them effectively meaningless. As we're seeing here. Suizen is only interested in combat. That's a bad combination.
Last edited:
- Location
- Where am I?
I'd much rather compromise her then us. It's that simple. I also believe she is better placed then us to fight back compromise (IF THERE IS ANY!). Think about it- if there is compromise, we don't want it to be in us as that prevents us from being able to resist the effects. Our open avenues are probably through a mixture of brute force with cultivation (probably ineffective given Kong's familiarity with such methods) or, more plausibly, with diagram. We can work the diagram on a compromised Suizehn much more effectively then we can on a compromised nameless... the diagram requires focus. Intellectual rigour. How are we supposed to find that if we are reeling in mental pain??? On the other hand we can do that just fine on Suizhen when/if she needs to be restrained and we ourselves are not compromised.
Additionally, we should work on getting the benefits out of our lackeys. Suizhen will never have our combat capabilities as you point out, she is not thrice great after all. What she can be is a field-based support. Strong enough to not get insta-gibbed, but not there to dps. Instead identify weaknesses, dispell utility etc etc. My point is that if people are concerned about getting value out of our lackeys we need to put them into a position where they CREATE value.
Ming is obviously our social tool. Money, influence, a captivating personality- she has these in spades, and will no doubt be critical for those qualities. Sure, giving her perfected ego barrier is important (especially because I suspect she will need the protection against mental effects if we send her on diplomatic outreach) but the maim purpose there is to gain her loyalty and improve her survivability marginally.
Suizehn is currently a bit useless as has been commented. We didn't make her a sword, so she doesn't have much offence. Anyways we don;t want her to be a dps- we have mordant flame, and later LLEWELWE Might for that. What we can do is specc her into support.
This is what EYES does- it gives us the return for our investment into her, promotes her character arc, insulates us from compromise, and most importantly, we can now make EYEbulli jokes about her. Also sasuke memes come on. Can we put her into a barrel to train?
Suizhen is currently being wasted. You're right- let's change that.
Last edited:
It seems much less likely to compromise us than it is to compromise her though. Not only because of the potential for an engineered back door that simply doesn't exist inside us, but because of our Layered Absolute Equivalent Ego Barrier.
The big question is whether this investment will pay back. At present, us consuming the Pearl saves us objective months, allowing us to make a real step forward, meaning that these would have been two weeks well spent. Giving it to Suizen doesn't, and she remains marginally useful at best. Nameless, thanks to his Diagram Spells is his own support. A Cultivator isn't going to be relevant at adding on support effects given the diversity of utility effects he has access to.
I'm looking at the minions and seeing sunk cost/gambler's fallacy written all over them. Every investment in them will only make it more tempting to make a further investment in them in the hope that this is the time it pays off.
Last edited:
Getting the eyes sounds very useful here, plus Suizhen makes the most efficient use of the Pearl due to her higher base cultivation. Not sure on the main target, but going for the big shot seems viable. I hope we don't miss it, then come back and realize we missed the other guy too.
[X] Give to Suizhen
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral
[X] Give to Suizhen
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral
That is not the case. Peak Soul Chrysalis would give us Reality Forming combat strength, which is enough for all of the challenges we are facing.
No, there are arguments which doesn't also apply to the difference between a Dao Cleaving tier Artifact and a Soul Chrysalis tier Artifact. For example, the potency of a created artifact doesn't just depend on the level of your cultivation, but also how far you allow its creation to reduce it. By being at the peak of a stage when forging, you can drop further without suffering the negative consequences of a stage reduction.
- Location
- Where am I?
The thing is, she has a higher base cultivation so she uses it better then we do. We don't take much benefit from it due to it not benefiting from our multipliers. Her eyes explicitly offer a "unique" feature, ones that are world renowned... i'd gladly sacrifice some progress for that. Regardless, I find the argument that we use the pill to help us beyond organ refining incredibly scary-
We'd be introducing compromise into our magnum opus. The re-imagining of our stage, and attaching to that a thread that Kong can use to crack us open. Ego barrier perfection or not, I'd be far happier if it was regular cultivation, but if we are using it as part of our foundation...
Do we really want to risk that?
By cultivating fast using the pearl, we introduce this element into our system. We then theoretically ditch it by artificing
but a) we are incredibly unlikely to reduce down the perfect amount by which the pill boosted us
b) it is hardly reasonable to expect we'd only consume our most recent essence- cultivation spreads it throughout our self, throughout our being. Cultivating with the pearl would spread it around. It's hardly like taking off the top layer of a sandwich. More like trying to remove by hand, dye in water.
It's very risky, folks. Imagine introducing actively dangerous, foreign elements into a patient about to commit to surgery. Why would you do that....
when you can just wait. If you really believe it is too much investment into Suizehn, save it for now and swap it for reagents we know are safe.
We'd get more value out of them as they'd be affected by our multipliers, we could get reagents specific to our stage so they'd be far more effective to us (like the pearl is more efficient on Suizhen then us).
It really makes no sense to use it now. Either pass and turn it into materials for later, or use it on Suizhen and start getting value out of the Unique aspect of our lackey.
The same applies to almost any cultivation material related to the beasts of the Overgrowth. And they aren't conceptually pure either. Cultivation is all about taking the energy of other things and making it your own.
And we should be a True Alchemist if not have the Philosopher's Stone before meeting Kong. That should allow the transmutation and refinement of anything we've consumed. If anything, any connection could be transmuted to be a point of weakness for him, rather than us.
Indeed, I'm minded to keep it for later sale.
An additional comment as I missed this. No She doesn't. Compare the two:
[ ] Consume Personally - A full half-stage would be very relevant to your combat abilities at this juncture, and you need all the power you can get going into the negotiation with the Bleak Ravens. The first half of any Cultivation stage always proceeds faster than the latter, but even saving a month or two of objective time will have made your scamming efforts worthwhile.
*Stage improved to Mid Soul Chrysalis, 3.5.
[ ] Give to Suizhen - Suizhen is already in early Soul Chrysalis, boosting her to Mid-Soul Chrysalis
*Stage improved to Mid Soul Chrysalis, 3.5.
[ ] Give to Suizhen - Suizhen is already in early Soul Chrysalis, boosting her to Mid-Soul Chrysalis
We would both start and end at the same point, Mid Soul Chrysalis. The contrast is that Cultivation is more useful to us than to her, as we can do more with it (make artifacts), and we need it more, as we have to Cultivate to each stage several times. It's also more effective on us thanks to our stage breaking abilities. The effect of half a rank increase between mid low and mid high Dao Cleaving is much bigger than between low and mid Soul Chrysalis, as the gap across each stage grows.