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Duality

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Aelain said:
1, Plasma torps against a planet are just as bad, most likely they saturated the planetary shields, maybe hitting only one area at a time til they got through, or something. Most of startrek is just tecnobable anyway. This story has some major changes to ST cannon so its definitely possible.
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Not really, Star Trek plasma torpedo's don't create detonation shockwaves they just burn.

Basically they are the AP rounds of torpedo's.

2. Ships slip across all the time in small numbers, with the way the AI can collaborate, they might have been able to get a strike force accross...or maybe they sent the strike force and hit the detectors quickly, then on to earth. The SI did a rapid strike on the Romulan homeworld why cant the romulans launch one as well?
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Small ships slip across, this was a whole battlefleet traveling at maximum warp.

3. Id have to look up the forces involved...but whats the effect of multiple hits when we dont know the size of the hits to begin with?

4. Obviously there is no way to get past any shield in ST
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More then enough to stop three torpedo's.

The favored tactic of the Romulans in the Earth/Romulan war was to point a ship at a planet and hit maximum warp.

The results of that were several dozen times worse then what happened to Earth.

Put simply this means the only way such an attack as described in Hiver's story works is a complete and utter sneak attack while the defense systems are down for maintenance.

Something we know didn't happen given they had prior warning due to the Mars defense grid.

5. Well we know there are orbitals left, so the weather control is gonna help. So I agree they will make the planet livable quicker.
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Not livable, it shouldn't have even been a problem.

The control system could have isolated the dust and debris from an eruption before it had time to spread beyond the Volcano.

Heck low level projected forcefield or tractor beam and the dust can't spread beyond the Volcano.

Meaning "Plot Railroad" for this to hurt Earth itself other then the deathtoll from the eruption and bombardment.

6. So first off, how big is the moon compared to the Earth? With no atmosphere alone I know they wont have room for everyone on Earth. If your living in a sealed environment you simply cant double or triple your population without massive effort and we are talking massively more people then that. How many people live on Earth in ST Cannon? Anyone know?
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Luna has a population of 50 million, that means they could likely safely house another 150-200 million.

And that's ignoring Mars, the Jupiter colonies, and the many orbitals.
 
Vaermina said:
Luna has a population of 50 million, that means they could likely safely house another 150-200 million.

And that's ignoring Mars, the Jupiter colonies, and the many orbitals.
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Two things you aren't seeming to consider. First, it takes time to move that many people around, even with transporters. And second, why do you think the death toll isn't larger than 3.5 billion? They did and are evacuating to the rest of the solar system, but they can only move so many people at a time.
 
Crazael said:
Two things you aren't seeming to consider. First, it takes time to move that many people around, even with transporters. And second, why do you think the death toll isn't larger than 3.5 billion? They did and are evacuating to the rest of the solar system, but they can only move so many people at a time.
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Multiple reasons ranging from a global transporter network on Earth, to Scotty being the head of the S.C.E.

You know Scotty the person who devolped a way to safely store people in Transporter Pattern Buffers? :p

If Hiver wanted a realistic planetary crisis he probably should have pulled a Babylon 5 and had the Romulan AI's release a bio or metagenic weapon into Earth's atmosphere.

Now that would have been a real crisis that couldn't have been minimilized, prevented, or stopped by known trek technology.
 
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Vaermina said:
Multiple reasons ranging from a global transporter network on Earth, to Scotty being the head of the S.C.E.

You know Scotty the person who devolped a way to safely store people in Transporter Pattern Buffers? :p
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Is he? Did he? Remember, the show is not 100% accurate. A lot of things are different from how the show went. For all we know, they never came across the Dyson Sphere and Scotty died an old man years before the Enterprise-D launched.
 
Crazael said:
Is he? Did he? Remember, the show is not 100% accurate. A lot of things are different from how the show went. For all we know, they never came across the Dyson Sphere and Scotty died an old man years before the Enterprise-D launched.
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Star took a Mission/Trip to the Dyson Sphere last book and confirmed the events in question...
 
Oh, I just realized the title's meaning now.

Also, I wonder if it would be possible to fireman's brigade people through a series of ship's transporter buffers to the colony on Mars.

Wasn't there an episode of Voyager with a nuclear wintered planet that they were able to use the deflector to push the ash out of the atmosphere?
 
Maldai said:
Oh, I just realized the title's meaning now.

Also, I wonder if it would be possible to fireman's brigade people through a series of ship's transporter buffers to the colony on Mars.

Wasn't there an episode of Voyager with a nuclear wintered planet that they were able to use the deflector to push the ash out of the atmosphere?
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Voyager is fanfiction and bad fanfiction at that in this continuity.
 
Vaermina said:
What he described however was actually a realistic and common sense use of the named technology
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No, it's really not. A starship's navigational deflector doesn't have nearly the power or range to do that.

Also, it doesn't have nearly the pecision you would need to filter an atmosphere like that. It would blow the whole thing away instead.
 
Crazael said:
No, it's really not. A starship's navigational deflector doesn't have nearly the power or range to do that.

Also, it doesn't have nearly the pecision you would need to filter an atmosphere like that. It would blow the whole thing away instead.
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Wrong on both counts.
In 2368, the deflector dish was modified to send five beams of light for exactly 8.3 seconds into the clouded atmosphere of Penthara IV, together with a modified phaser blast. This ionized dust particles in the planet's atmosphere, which were converted into high-energy plasma. This plasma was then absorbed by the deflector shields of the Enterprise-D and redirected into space. Warp power had to be rerouted to the deflector dish to create enough energy for the massive undertaking. (TNG: "A Matter of Time")
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In fact the Enterprise D has done that exact thing before to clear dust particles from a planets atmosphere.

 
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Vaermina said:
Wrong on both counts.
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Two problems with this, first the author provided a good, in universe explanation for changing any canon details he wants.
Second the story's premise is internally inconsistent and contradictory worrying about the sort of details you're complaining about here makes no sense, either ignore the problems and enjoy the story, or ignore the story.
 
Vaer, you need to look up what AP means.....plasma torps are not armor piercing if they envelope a target.

Most of the rest of your issues seem to be that this story doesnt follow cannon ST, which uh...it says at the beginning that this isnt.

While we dont know what exactly happened i imagine its something like:

With the attack on earth, I am assuming they put multiple torps into a really small area. Only do able because the attackers where AI, quickly cause the attackers are AI. This would put holes in the shields that they then slipped the Antimatter torps through.

The federation did not have an AI controlling their defenses at that time, so they did not react quick enough to prevent the damage.

Hell the attacking R-AI could have just gone through the system at close to max warp or something. Not sure how exactly they all got there just that they did before the federation could react.
 
TheUnicorn said:
Two problems with this, first the author provided a good, in universe explanation for changing any canon details he wants.
Second the story's premise is internally inconsistent and contradictory worrying about the sort of details you're complaining about here makes no sense, either ignore the problems and enjoy the story, or ignore the story.
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You don't seem to be getting the point here.

There are dozens of ways they could clear dust out of a planetary atmosphere in a matter of days using only technologies mentioned in Hivers story. Meaning them not doing so can only exist due if the author is utilizing plot induced stupidity to railroad through events.

Heck the entire plot point is "plot induced stupidity" because Earth would have realistically disarmed those Super Volcano's 150 some years ago. With judicious use of transporters to relieve the magma pressure without rupturing the magma pockets.

No offense to Hiver as I usually enjoy his work but the whole thing is utterly senseless and reads like it only exists because he needed a reason to kill a bunch of people and couldn't think up a better way.



Aelain said:
Vaer, you need to look up what AP means.....plasma torps are not armor piercing if they envelope a target.
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Plasma Torpedo's only envelope because of their size, what they do when impacting is burn through.

See TOS.

The federation did not have an AI controlling their defenses at that time, so they did not react quick enough to prevent the damage.
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Being an AI doesn't magically make computers faster.

Defenses in Trek are controlled by automatic systems the moment enemy ships showed up on sensors all defensive systems would have been raised automatically by the computer at the same speed an AI would be capable of.

It's only the offensive systems that require human input.

Hell the attacking R-AI could have just gone through the system at close to max warp or something. Not sure how exactly they all got there just that they did before the federation could react.
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They didn't, they stopped and fought a battle at Mars.
 
Vaermina said:
If Hiver wanted a realistic planetary crisis he probably should have pulled a Babylon 5 and had the Romulan AI's release a bio or metagenic weapon into Earth's atmosphere.
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An alternate strategy might have been use the rescued slaves from the shipyard. The RAIs could have implanted micro-scale capsules containing neococcus ecoclasticus microbes made from some material which would break down in a few weeks from reacting with their biochemistry into their bodies, then let them be rescued.
 
Vaermina said:
You don't seem to be getting the point here.
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No, I get it, I even agree with it. I'm just pointing out arguing it is rather pointless.

If you want to argue about plot induced stupidity how about something that has a more significant effect on the plot, such as the characters inconsistent attitude towards moral issues, the lack of any attempt to raise AIs in a more ethical simulation, the way the AIs are only 100 times faster, and no more smarter than humans but somehow this magically makes them infinitely better in fighting a ship, etc...

Either decide to ignore the plot induced stupidities or ignore the story, either way you should just ignore the plot stupidities.

Dreadis said:
Guys, the story has moved on to the next thread. Why are you still arguing in this one.
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The story has moved on which is why I don't feel bad about having a pointless argument in this thread - here I won't bother anyone who's not interested in the argument.
 
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Ya im actually following the other thread lol.

Vaer, I do not mean to say the way I replied was the only way it could work, also we all assume the big loss on Earth is the loss of lives, they can get the planet back up fairly quick. I would have to reread the fight again but there was barely any info about what really happened in that passage. I have just been tossing out guesses to try to solve the problems you have, but again they are your issues. I havent put more then the time to type this up into the argument and it really is not worth it to me to win.
 
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