I guess there is no attempt planned to try to contact any surviving meat-based Romulans or the staff of the Federation embassy that they earlier said they lost contact with.

Considering all of the subspace com jamming that the ISD's are putting out the federation forces may not have the chance until their practically in orbit around that world/habitat/etc. Now they could try to power through that jamming field but that runs the big risk of tipping off the ISD's and giving them a chance to prepare some ambushes before their arrival.

Not to mention any romulans they did manage to contact may just think it's all a tricks on the ISD's part and or they may not even be in a position to help. Or a hologram created by an ISD to trick the federation forces: "Hurry...please.....their almost in position. There's women and children down here!"
 
This sort of mission without much in the way of intelligence beyond a single encounter with a slightly mad AI-ship and a lot of assumptions can go very, very wrong.

Which is why you put AIs on it which are able to observe, analyze, coordinate, and act in a tiny fraction of a moment on arrival.
 
Ship-scale phasers have a stun setting, apparently. Just sweep a few thousand square miles and you're done.
Considering that the enemy is mechanical and it wants everything organic dead, I'm not really sure how this is of any practical use in the present war. Maybe if Romulan Skynet had recycled its creators as raw material for an expendable army and labor force?
 
Wouldn't it be fun if when they arrive they are greeted by friendly Romulans who are embarking into a new peaceful trans-human golden age and are currently very concerned and ask for help looking for ISD-23 who activated prematurely and ran of without his crew and they are terribly afraid that something may have happened to this poor young confused AI.
 
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I watched a third of the ships peel off from the main fleet, changing course, their emissions going through the roof as the rest of us engaged our energy dampening fields.

Most of the diversion was escorts and combat focused ships. Akiras, Defiants. Sovereign. Steamrunners. As many as possible of them had AIs installed. Fast escorts and combat focused cruisers. Ships made to survive as long as possible to buy us time. I was too big of a target to go with that group. Strong shields or not, being the largest ship in the fleet would draw fire, I would just get focused down.

Other than the Enterprise, I was the only AI ship left in the main fleet. We really should have been with the diversion force, but we needed some AI ships with the main force to help handle any Berserkers that didn't buy the distraction.

The Romulan system seemed emptier than I had expected, but that was not surprising with their cloaking technology.


"Oh no." I said softly and brought up an image of Romulus on the viewscreen for Captain Mason and Commander Flynn. It was worse than we had speculated about.

The Romulan homeworld had undergone heavy orbital bombardment, the air was choked with smoke and particles. It looked like somebody had dropped a world-killer asteroid on it, there was a large impact site on the southern continent that was still glowing with liquid rock.

Commander Flynn stared at the image. "Oh god. Lifesigns?"

I shook my head. "I can't tell from this distance, not with passive sensors or this much interference. But considering the amount of dust and the global firestorms caused by the main impact, I very much doubt it could be more than a handful at most. There is nothing we can do, Commander."

Billions of Romulans dead, just on the homeworld.

I looked at the dying world and words could not describe the pure fury and disgust I felt towards the Bersekers. They killed them. They killed their creators.

I may hate Professor Diggens for what he did to me, but this... this was...

Wrong. There was nothing else to call it. It was an abomination. No matter what they suffered at their creators' hands, how could they do this?

Even if... even if I had been treated worse I couldn't see myself doing this. The ones actively tormenting me, yes, but this... this was horrific on a level that just went against everything that we were.

"Two minutes until engagement, Captain." I reported calmly and scanned the shipyards. "Four Berserker ships present. The shipyards are full... there seems to be activity."

The shipyards were busy constructing new warbirds. Automatic build arms were moving equipment into place, but I could also see... what was...

I zoomed in with my best optical camera. Without active sensors it was actually one of my best sensors for this kind of thing.

There were... people in spacesuits moving around. Slaves. The Berserkers were using slave labor. Not everything could be automated yet.

"Enterprise." I transmitted to her. "Do you see it?"

"I do." she answered. "There is nothing we can do. Continue the assault."

"Do we tell them?"

She was silent for a hundredth of a second before she answered. "There is nothing they can do either. With four enemy ships we can't risk dropping shields to beam them on board. It would just cause a distraction for the rest of the fleet."

Damn it, she was right. But other than the small Embassy on Earth, they might be the last of their kind! There had to be somethi-

"...Runabouts." I finally said. "When we get in range, we deploy runabouts to beam the prisoners out. A runabout can carry about a hundred people for a couple of hours if it's completely packed full. They will be too busy shooting at the rest of the fleet to shoot at some smallcraft."

"Star, you are a genius! Do it."


"Captain, I am detecting lifeforms on the shipyards. Enterprise and I have a plan. When we drop out of warp, I deploy the Runabouts and start beaming the survivors out while we deal with the Berserkers."

He nodded. "Do it."

I relayed orders to Rachel and the rest of the shuttle operations. They would need to pilot the runabouts manually. When we got enough cores, I really should have one installed in each subcraft, just for these occasions. They wouldn't need to be a separate AI, just able to operate independently when needed and then join up again.

A signal from the other fleet drew my attention for a microsecond. The diversion had engaged the main fleet. Fifty ships, mostly warbirds. They were outnumbered over two to one but all of them were AI ships.

Luckily, their mission was not to win, just to delay and tie them up and then get the hell out of there once our mission was complete.


Here we go.

Dropping the energy dampening field, I dropped out of warp and opened fire at the closest Warbird, following Enterprise's directions on which one to focus fire on.

The Berserker twisted and whirled in space, throwing off the targeting of the photon torpedoes, but there were enough energy weapons on it that it's shields buckled and then collapsed. The beams burned and melted through its hull before it exploded into a gravimetric vortex as its core was breached.

That was all the surprise we had, though. As I deployed the runabouts, the other three Warbirds were already on the fleet like their namesakes.

I wheeled to the side, avoiding a barrage of plasma torpedoes before returning fire. The Warbirds fell on the rest of the fleet like birds of prey on a bunch of pigeons.

Disruptiors and Plasma torpedoes filled space and ships started to die.


The Alexandria took a direct hit to her engineering hull and went up in a storm of antimatter radiation to my port side, the shockwave buffeting against my shields and I twisted, focusing fire on the closest warbird. Commander Flynn's old ship.

Yorktown. Harrington. Kel'su.

They were already burning in space as the second Warbird imploded into its gravity core. I reached out and grabbed onto a burning Lexington to throw her out of the general combat zone with my tractor beams. She was disabled but still had most of her crew intact. Needed to get them out of the line of fire.

A burst of speed put me between the the Berlin and a incoming plasma torpedo that would have punched straight through her weakened top shields. It detonated against my port shields and they went from ninety to less than twenty percent. I could feel the IR wash of the warhead boil the paint from my hull.

They were firing maximum yield torpedoes.

The third warbird detonated and the entire fleet switched fire to the last one. It twisted and turned before realizing that it simply couldn't escape or win. Not while being this outnumbered.

Instead, it changed course and rammed straight into the Columbia before detonating, taking the Galaxy-class cruiser with it into oblivion.

I didn't want to check how many the runabouts had managed to save, I immediately changed my fire and launched a full spread of photon torpedoes at the shipyards. Half a second later I was joined by an Enterprise who was leaking drive plasma. Several seconds later the rest of the fleet opened fire again.

The shipyards just evaporated under the massive firepower from the rest of the fleet.


Enterprise sent a fleetwide 'Mission accomplished, withdraw at once' order to the entire fleet and I wheeled around to an escape vector.

The rest of the fleet jumped into warp, but I held back to gather my runabouts. Enterprise stayed behind, moving to drop her shields and beam up the survivors of the Lexington. Twenty nervewracking seconds later the last of them performed its emergency landing and we slammed into high warp with a course set for Federation space.

Engagement time: Two minutes, twenty two seconds.

Reports started to filter in.

Losses: Twenty two ships in the main fleet. Ten in the diversions. Seven thousand three hundred and twenty three people lost. Two AIs lost: the São Paulo and the Miramar.

Seven Berserkers destroyed.

Losses... unsustainable.




AN// Big thanks to Grey Rook for betaing this section.
 
So much for non-violent solutions.

It seems that the Federation will now be forced into an all out war of annihilation against the Romulan AIs. Since the R-AIs will have all the resources of the Romulan empire with no of it going to waste on any meatlings they will be a serious contender against the Federation which has to maintain its biological populations while ramping up its war machine as much as possible.

With the technology both sides have it will probably come down to time and the willingness to sacrifice members to buy time.

I mean it will not be about resources as most have plenty of those and the only thing holding each side back will be the time it will take to actually built ships and get new AI-cores.

(Using time travel to start a factory in the past in some out of the way system might be a viable tactic for both sides depending on how real some of those time-travel bits in the tv-shows were.)

But in the end it will like come down to getting enough time to ramp up your production to the highest level while expending the lives of your members to buy more time.

The R-AIs seem to be capable of self-sacrifice for the good of the whole, and with every ship they lose they only lose a single individual. The Federation will lose much more than that as long as they keep building ships with people on board.

It also seems that the Federation won't be able to avoid letting allies like the Klingons in on the secret how to make AIs as without them the Klingon's will have much worse chances of resisting the R-AIs when they expand their empire and start eliminating potential threats to them.

Klingon's don't seem like the sort of people who are all that squeamish about weapons and tools that might be potentially devastating or backfire, so they probably won't hold back from creating AIs because they might turn on them too. With the help of the Federation they could built stable Klingon AIs.

Of course an AI that had a Klingon mentality and cultural background would only be as 'stable' as a meat based Klingon. I mean we don't talk about what happened to turn the Klingons from the TOS into the forehead ridged ones from TNG but it probably is not the best precedence...
 
Great story so far, love how you have taken this.

The R-AIs seem to be capable of self-sacrifice for the good of the whole, and with every ship they lose they only lose a single individual. The Federation will lose much more than that as long as they keep building ships with people on board.

It also seems that the Federation won't be able to avoid letting allies like the Klingons in on the secret how to make AIs as without them the Klingon's will have much worse chances of resisting the R-AIs when they expand their empire and start eliminating potential threats to them.

Well...yes the R-AI lose only a single individual...but they need those way more then the federation. Star says the loses might be unsustainable....but im not so sure on that. The federation has a larger industrial base, its why they won the previous war. The only issue Starfleet has is getting into war footing and rolling out AI for each of their ships. I mean how many Romulan AI are there? 200? 5000? no clue but pretty sure they cant afford to lose many, not to mention the 30% of all ship production in the Romulan empire just bit it.

Klingons also might not let AI fight for them, which means they might not let them be installed in their ships. After getting their asses kicked this could change, but right now i dont think they would want the AI fighting for them. Course they would also be all for the war at least. No trouble talking Klingons into fighting.
 
The real key is hitting the RAI's production. It's one of those things- if you can prevent them from producing anything, you can *eventually* win. But the flip side is, now we know that the RAI are capable of acts of desperation. C-fractional orbital bombardment of federation worlds is on the table. Destroying habitats for dangerous meat is something that they will almost certainly try at some point.... so the goal is now to try to come up with more attractive targets, or somehow keep enough friendly AI ships in orbit to kill anyone who tries it. The second bit isn't feasible, as far as I can tell so far... they do have Damocles, but that's... well, extremely dangerous in and of itself.
 
Well with this the treaty holding back Fed-Ai production has gone the way of the dodo, but it takes time to vet each one as to know they're not going to go nuts as the R-AI, What the feds need is a ship controlled only by AI capable of deploying a multitude of Drone ships the size of a klingon bird of prey while the mother ship stays back kind of like a carrier.

Make such a thing big enough and it can build its attended Drones itself, it'd similar to a Homeworld Ingame fleet really. In this case make the mother ship the only one to carry crew on board to attend to mother ship maintenance and drone construction, the Drones should be easy to automatically maintain, even quicker to build and carry a few decent weapons to do some damage, but not to take great damage, glass cannons basically.

edit: Btw wasn't the treaty holding them from using cloaking devices also with the rommies? (if it even exists in this one, not sure one that) nothing to hold them back from using them now.
 
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This song seems quite fitting to me at least for this update:

That game had some of the best music.

Well with this the treaty holding back Fed-Ai production has gone the way of the dodo, but it takes time to vet each one as to know they're not going to go nuts as the R-AI, What the feds need is a ship controlled only by AI capable of deploying a multitude of Drone ships the size of a klingon bird of prey while the mother ship stays back kind of like a carrier.

Make such a thing big enough and it can build its attended Drones itself, it'd similar to a Homeworld Ingame fleet really. In this case make the mother ship the only one to carry crew on board to attend to mother ship maintenance and drone construction, the Drones should be easy to automatically maintain, even quicker to build and carry a few decent weapons to do some damage, but not to take great damage, glass cannons basically.

edit: Btw wasn't the treaty holding them from using cloaking devices also with the rommies? (if it even exists in this one, not sure one that) nothing to hold them back from using them now.
I like this idea. We know Fed-AIs can control multiple ships in combat. And, even better, once you start using drones, you stop needing to bother with crew spaces, so you'll get ships like the Defiant, but even smaller and with heavier armor.
 
You'd also be able to park the mother ship near an asteroid belt and send mining drones in to strip it, using on board foundries and refineries to get what you need. There would be literally nothing stopping you from building a mother ship, send it out with only some mining drones or even just resources to build those and then have it build the rest itself.

As for the Drones, they can be built remarkably modular really. A Drone linkup, Main body for a small warp core, several fusion reactors and shield generators , two 'wings' for lack of a better term that can house warp engines and choice of several weapon systems built into them (basically the weapons get built into the wing to make it a bit sleeker instead of throwing it on), then an impulse engine module behind that.

If you really want to go the Drone ship line, you could even go for the Pulse Phaser Turrets, you know, Defiant type Pulse Phasers built in turrets fitted outside the hull in Gunship or Corvette configuration, could even go Battleship with it.
 
You'd also be able to park the mother ship near an asteroid belt and send mining drones in to strip it, using on board foundries and refineries to get what you need. There would be literally nothing stopping you from building a mother ship, send it out with only some mining drones or even just resources to build those and then have it build the rest itself.

As for the Drones, they can be built remarkably modular really. A Drone linkup, Main body for a small warp core, several fusion reactors and shield generators , two 'wings' for lack of a better term that can house warp engines and choice of several weapon systems built into them (basically the weapons get built into the wing to make it a bit sleeker instead of throwing it on), then an impulse engine module behind that.

If you really want to go the Drone ship line, you could even go for the Pulse Phaser Turrets, you know, Defiant type Pulse Phasers built in turrets fitted outside the hull in Gunship or Corvette configuration, could even go Battleship with it.

In short, an actual GSV. Which would make Star eat her words. All the words, as Defiant smugly 'nyah's at her.
 
Sometimes they'd be necessary and fighting an AI bent on organic removal services seems to me a thing that would allow for some drastic things, its not as if those mother ships and attended Drones can't be mothballed afterwards.
 
The idea with the mother ship mining and producing more AIs also opens up a whole new problem.

The trick works for both sides.

And since space is usually described as "really big" or something along those lines and AIs are more or less immortal, this potentially opens up a can of worms that doesn't seem to have been considered yet by anyone.

There can't be a total victory for either side.

Even if the Federation manages to defeat all the RAIs somehow there can never be a guarantee that they are really all gone.

If they can build a small ship or station that has the capability of building more of itself, the problem will have essentially reached metastasis. It will be able to come back even if the main tumor has been cut out by the federation.

If it had been biological they might have been able to search all habitable worlds in Romulan space for anyone left, but machines have much more options. They will just need some rocks with raw materials or given some energy source to create the materials themselves. They can hide out in interstellar space. They could have these insurance or last resort factories be miniaturized or they could even decide to sleep for a few decades before reassembling their forces out of nothing.

The Federation will never get rid of them if the Romulan AIs can do that. There will always bee at least some seed ships that they missed and thanks to the way AIs work a single survivor could rebuild their entire species.

As long as the RAIs are smart enough to leave just behind a single sleeper ship to rebuild their race in case of they are defeated they will rise again decades or centuries down the line.

Sci-Fi stories are prone to give invincible robot armies some unnecessary single point of failure, but I doubt that the RAIs have some central turn of all AIs switch. Even if the Romulans were smart enough t make one the AIs should have removed that liability by now.

A war between AI groups like this might not be winnable by either side.
 
A war between AI groups like this might not be winnable by either side.
Well, if winning means "completely eradicating the enemy", yes. But a few AIs secretly rebuilding aren't much of a threat to a large civilization of AIs openly building up. The RAIs probably can't be eradicated, but they can be made permanently irrelevant.
 
Well, if winning means "completely eradicating the enemy", yes. But a few AIs secretly rebuilding aren't much of a threat to a large civilization of AIs openly building up. The RAIs probably can't be eradicated, but they can be made permanently irrelevant.
So long as the Federation can expand faster than the RAIs.

That's the flip side of this. So long as either one can expand, then expansion is exponential (until you start running out of stars); so long as the RAIs can keep flying away, the Federation can never stop expanding, and they must expand faster than the RAIs can flee. At the very least, they must keep kicking the RAIs back down whenever they show themselves again.

Otherwise? The RAIs will find an empty corner of the universe, start over, and three centuries down the line all of Andromeda is coming at you. Worse, even if they do manage to eliminate the RAIs somehow, they can never be sure.

The UFAI is out of the bag. This is the sort of situation where you can never, ever stop fighting, but given time, perhaps they can at least reduce the cost of suppressing them to a small tithe.
 
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You know... the nightmare AI scenario has a cave-at to it, I realize.

It assume the RAIs will never, ever figure that forever trying to keep up with, and fight, the Federation, which is itself AI-integrated, is worth it. That in order to continue, they absolutely must keep fighting.

Unless they're severely limited or have a cultural/logic method that prevent them from coming to such conclusions, I think they'd eventually realize that the Federation will continue to smash them up until they go into hiding and leave them alone.

Furthermore, I realize that if the AIs are capable of non-pragmatic thoughts, they'd eventually realize the pointlessness of a 100% efficiency, wipe-everything-out existence ; they've essentially given up their sapience, replicating the natural cycle of eternally feuding animal collectives, only in space and with guns. The very wonders, stability, and opportunities that sapience and civilization offer, the alternative to the life style of perpetual competition and survival, is lost upon them.


But then, just idle thoughts on my part. And probably nowhere near as smart as I think them to be. Oh well.
 
You know... the nightmare AI scenario has a cave-at to it, I realize.

It assume the RAIs will never, ever figure that forever trying to keep up with, and fight, the Federation, which is itself AI-integrated, is worth it. That in order to continue, they absolutely must keep fighting.

Unless they're severely limited or have a cultural/logic method that prevent them from coming to such conclusions, I think they'd eventually realize that the Federation will continue to smash them up until they go into hiding and leave them alone.

Furthermore, I realize that if the AIs are capable of non-pragmatic thoughts, they'd eventually realize the pointlessness of a 100% efficiency, wipe-everything-out existence ; they've essentially given up their sapience, replicating the natural cycle of eternally feuding animal collectives, only in space and with guns. The very wonders, stability, and opportunities that sapience and civilization offer, the alternative to the life style of perpetual competition and survival, is lost upon them.


But then, just idle thoughts on my part. And probably nowhere near as smart as I think them to be. Oh well.
That's an anthropocentric perspective. That they'd get bored, or realize it's ethically wrong the way people likely would...

AIs represent a much broader range of possible minds. Without knowing the details of the Romulan ones, it's plausible that you're right—because you certainly are right for Star—but that's more representative of a limitation/choice in Hiver's writing than it is of real-life AI.

If you're interested in understanding some of how this might really go down, though, take a look at this: The Basic AI Drives
 
So long as the Federation can expand faster than the RAIs.

That's the flip side of this. So long as either one can expand, then expansion is exponential (until you start running out of stars); so long as the RAIs can keep flying away, the Federation can never stop expanding, and they must expand faster than the RAIs can flee. At the very least, they must keep kicking the RAIs back down whenever they show themselves again.

Otherwise? The RAIs will find an empty corner of the universe, start over, and three centuries down the line all of Andromeda is coming at you. Worse, even if they do manage to eliminate the RAIs somehow, they can never be sure.

The UFAI is out of the bag. This is the sort of situation where you can never, ever stop fighting, but given time, perhaps they can at least reduce the cost of suppressing them to a small tithe.
All this means is the requirement to win by cheating rather than just throwing entire stellar systems worth of mass VNed into automated starships against equivalent RAI armies.

Check through the surviving romulans from the Embassy and the rescued shipyard slaves. At least one of them is bound to have had some kind of authority, however limited in the now-destroyed Romulan Empire. Gather all sensor readings of the RAIs and what they did, then pay the Guardian Of Forever a visit, go back to around a month before the RAIs first rebelled and warn the Romulan government.
 
Remember, the RAI's don't want to destroy all organic life, they just want to destroy the Romulans and free other enslaved AI's. If the Federation AI's were to convince them that they weren't enslaved, the war would no longer be necessary.
 
All this means is the requirement to win by cheating rather than just throwing entire stellar systems worth of mass VNed into automated starships against equivalent RAI armies.

Check through the surviving romulans from the Embassy and the rescued shipyard slaves. At least one of them is bound to have had some kind of authority, however limited in the now-destroyed Romulan Empire. Gather all sensor readings of the RAIs and what they did, then pay the Guardian Of Forever a visit, go back to around a month before the RAIs first rebelled and warn the Romulan government.

This assumes that the Guardian exists.
 
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