Deus Pater (Exalted/40k)
- Thread starter Maugan Ra
- Start date
- Crossover
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Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
I get your point of view, I even get why you are calling it "fantasy fascism apologia", and I see that the majority of people here in this quest seem to be of the subset of 40K players that favor your analysis, but honestly what I'm saying is: stop metaphorizing this to contemporary politics. Stop doing it. See things the Cardinal's way: the aliens and psykers are the emanations of a hostile universe, and you'll see my POV.
I didn't even insult you guys or your beliefs. What's with the hostility? I'm saying I get your perspective, but it's not the only way to view things. You can choose to see this as a tale of fascist male whiteness or you can choose to see it as a tale of humanity banded together against a hostile and uncaring universe. Both are valid perspectives, but the latter means you don't have to throw out the entirety of 40K for something that vaguely has some of the same ideas and some of the same names.
Ergo why I said that it's a very flawed institution but some of its policies are necessary if you accept the assumptions underlying the Imperium. Geeze.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I don't think anyone is saying the Imperium is good though, only that it is at most Necessary. Even if you consider the Imperium EVIL, the worst evils of humanity, they represent US. Therefore many will support them over that other particular brand of genocidal assholes over there coming to murdersoulrape everything.
This isn't a high bar to cross guys, you can support the Imperium without supporting its policies outside its very specific circumstances of shit. Which is why were playing a Reformist. (who actually has arguably WORSE beliefs about aliens than the orthodox do)
This isn't a high bar to cross guys, you can support the Imperium without supporting its policies outside its very specific circumstances of shit. Which is why were playing a Reformist. (who actually has arguably WORSE beliefs about aliens than the orthodox do)
TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
- Pronouns
- He/Him
oh yo it did not take you long to slide from "the Imperium had some good points" to "stop getting triggered Libs" at all
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I think what he is saying was that they DO have some points, but only in this specific set of circumstances, which when taken out makes those points completely abominable.
Edit:
Also
@Maugan Ra is this a derail? Should we stop?
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Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
?????
I'm saying that if you want to understand my POV, you first have to stop making analogies to current politics and instead adopt a viewpoint closer to the Cardinal's. So you can appreciate 40K without thinking it fantasy fascist apologia or what have you. I didn't say that you were wrong to have your analysis of things and I said nothing about being triggered at all. Please don't assume hostility where none exists.
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Hakazin
Serpent Admirer
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Get people to stop photoshopping Trump's face onto the GEoM, and then we'll talk.
- Location
- London, England
The Imperium is fascist. Straight up, this isn't even me comparing it to modern politics, it's blatantly fascist.
Hero worship of soldiers who sacrifice their lives for the nation, a state-sanctioned religion that exalts loyal service and knowing your place, a vast bureaucratic apparatus that extracts wealth from the domains under its control, intergalactic law enforcement that is literally Judge Dredd with the serial numbers filed off, massive amounts of xenophobia and internal discrimination against mutants, psykers and lower classes (see Necromunda where the nobility literally hunt underhivers for sport...)
The Imperium are memetic Catholic Space Nazis.
They're fascists. Deliberately, blatantly so.
Hero worship of soldiers who sacrifice their lives for the nation, a state-sanctioned religion that exalts loyal service and knowing your place, a vast bureaucratic apparatus that extracts wealth from the domains under its control, intergalactic law enforcement that is literally Judge Dredd with the serial numbers filed off, massive amounts of xenophobia and internal discrimination against mutants, psykers and lower classes (see Necromunda where the nobility literally hunt underhivers for sport...)
The Imperium are memetic Catholic Space Nazis.
They're fascists. Deliberately, blatantly so.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Oh god, someone invoked Trump, Time to exit the thread, I am dropping out of this convo. See ya guys at the next update.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Yeah, you said it was "a good idea once executed well, but now badly," and my point was expanding on why no, it's not a good idea, it's terrible execution on terrible ideas, and it being (arguably) necessary does nothing to change or excuse that, and in fact is one of the meta reasons why it's terrible.
(Also, seriously, "stop metaphorizing this to contemporary politics"? Really? 40k has been talking about contemporary politics in metaphor since Margeret Thatcher.)
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Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
You're the QM, man. If you say that the Imperium in your verse is fascist, I'll believe it. I just think canon!40K is a lot more like Revolutionary Iran than anything else, but it seems that's not a real popular opinion around here.
I'm going to quit this line of discussion because it seems like we all believe different things and this is beginning to verge on a thread derail, plus it's hard to have a discussion with other people on the internet when you disagree so much on the basic assumptions and without the emotional affordances of a face-to-face convo it's too easy to misread someone else as being hostile or what have you.
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- Location
- London, England
Related point - 40k has always been political. Always.
The first major Ork character introduced was Gazgkull Mag Uruk Thraka... or, if you substrate the accent imposed on the words by a British working class accent, Margaret Thatcher.
The first major Ork character introduced was Gazgkull Mag Uruk Thraka... or, if you substrate the accent imposed on the words by a British working class accent, Margaret Thatcher.
Hakazin
Serpent Admirer
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hey, I'm just pointing out that 40K has already "metaphorized to contemporary politics" as he put it, and that this seems to be yet another case of certain people insisting on "rules for thee and not for me".
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I don't know, just that when Trump gets invoked in an unrelated thread, Infractions are 100% not far behind. Thats why i am leaving now, i've been involved heavily in this convo, and a infraction will be a 2 week ban at least for me due to... other things. Edit: Last post before next update.
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lancelot
Completely worth it
Well I mean Lee Regional one not the one created by his crazy ass son. The one that cited self-determination and that there were no gods and well for some incredibly stupid reason he decided not to explain to everybody that the show called chaos gods were nothing more than warp born parasites with delusions of grandeur.
I mean that Imperial truth of course it wouldn't be possible before any priests to completely believe in that but there is a precedent in that there's a large chunk of that that a great many Space Marines believe in while still believing in the god emperor. I'll be honest I'm not exactly sure how that works believing in both of the god Emperor and that there are no gods but I'm sure it's in one of the Space Marine books I've read at some point.
Oh yeah 40k is hugely political! The whole thing takes the piss out of xenophobic authoritarian thought and perspective especially from a British one.
The Imperium is a Tory Government (roughly speaking, depends on the author I think, they might just be straight up Nazis without any camouflage).
The Orks are the working class.
The Eldar are the French/Europeans.
The Tyranids are *insert scary immigrant group here*
Chaos are the left wing/Anarchist stereotypes.
The Tau are China, sort of.
Basically it's the universe through the lens of Daily Mail headlines literally taken to parodic extremes.
The Imperium is a Tory Government (roughly speaking, depends on the author I think, they might just be straight up Nazis without any camouflage).
The Orks are the working class.
The Eldar are the French/Europeans.
The Tyranids are *insert scary immigrant group here*
Chaos are the left wing/Anarchist stereotypes.
The Tau are China, sort of.
Basically it's the universe through the lens of Daily Mail headlines literally taken to parodic extremes.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Because the idea of the "God Emperor" is an innovation of the Imperial Cult, derived from the Lectitio Divinitatus penned by Lorgar, in contravention of the Imperial Truth.
At some point, the Iron Hands encountered the Diasporex, which was a nomadic coalition of both humans and other species. Suffice to say that the Diasporex got annihilated by the Iron Hands and the Emperor's Children after its human members refused integration into the Imperium. Human survivors were used as slave, while non-human survivors were executed.
As far as I know, the Diasporex didn't have any horrible secrets along the lines of, "They look fine but the aliens are actually eating the humans," which I think was something that the White Scars stumbled upon at one point in time. The Diasporex just got killed because the Imperium really, really doesn't like taking "No" for an answer.
lancelot
Completely worth it
I know I think Ra misunderstood me when I brought up the 'Imperial truth', and he thought I meant the original version of the Cult... maybe. Honestly at this point I think I'm confusing myself.
I'm just saying what this Cardinal believes is pretty far off from what the Emperor wanted people to believe/know. Which seems odd with him being singled out like that. I would think the reason he got himself and his people in trouble is because his beliefs were similar to the Imperial truth, instead of the Cult.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
somewhere, in a forgotten time, the last priest of the last church of terra is laughing at the future in a burning building
- Location
- his hidden lair
I'm sorry, who got rolled over by a legion or two? When we have crazy ass shit like the Rangdan? Or Gorro. Or Ullanor. I have my doubts anything like a modern liberal democracy can cover such a vast and diverse scope as the IoM without an absolute shit ton of problems of its own.or it could be the interrex which did all those things and worked fantastically until the imperium fucked it up
Yeah, the Imperium is distinctly far worse than it has to be- and humanity has to do better... but if the Interex is your idea of optimal then shit is going to get apocalyptic fast. Humanity to some extent has to be militarized, it has to be prepared for the herculean effort of defending itself across the breadth of a galaxy.
The imperium needs to become better, humanity needs to become better, but if that boils down to simply thinking the Interex had the right idea we've missed the point. A huge part of this game should be trying to find that equilibrium between an oppressive militaristic regime with no regard for human life except in the abstract, to one that promotes liberty, happiness, and progress best suited for thriving in a hostile galaxy.
Edit: as an example, reconciling the surveillance needed to prevent Chaos cults or Slaught infiltrators or what have you from rampaging into disasters versus individual rights and liberties. Or memetic hazards versus harmful ignorance.
I don't think anyone in canon sure as hell ever found that point.
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- Location
- in the trash
[X] Exile. You find this man unworthy, and banish him from your sight. Let him go forth and spread the word of what happened here today, the first of many heralds that you must send forth to better enact your will upon this world.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is a really nice argument because I said none of that.
- Location
- his hidden lair
But you touted the Interex as a positive example before the Imperium ruined everything in reply to someone saying the canon reforming Imperium was on the right track. When, in all actuality the Interex was a bit player that got eaten by the monstrous human faction rather than the monstrous fungus, or maggots, or whatever other horror.
Referencing the Interex as a positive sustainable example when compared to an Imperium motivated to at least unfuck some of their own bureaucracy seems head scratching. I'm not defending their destruction, or the the canon imperial reforms as being ideal- but I think saying they were on the right track is being blinded by our own values.
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Fortunately a Solar is more than capable of making Humans be better people.