[D&D 3.P] Those Worthy of Eberron's Claw (No SV, we're starting at level 16)

0.2 Vote Results: Wherein the audience saves me from my incompetence, and the MC becomes an outside perspective
/stares at auto-result

...that is not how it was supposed to count up. I must have misconfigured it...

Fortunately, @Blademaster kindly offered a tally that's configured correctly! And @Eternal_0bserver inserted a second-choice vote to break the tie. :) Thank you, everyone!

Adhoc vote count started by Blademaster on Oct 26, 2022 at 4:42 PM, finished with 19 posts and 9 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Outside Perspective
    -[X] (Cyran) your mystical rival —
    -[X] (Brelander) your blessed sort —
    -[X] (Thrane) your weaponsmaster —
    -[X] (Karrn) your skillmonkey —
    -[X] (Aundairian) your shield —
    -[x] (Cleanup) ...from beyond the current borders of the Five Nations.
    [X] Plan: Defying Stereotypes
    -[X] (Cyran) your weaponsmaster —
    -[X] (Brelander) your blessed sort —
    -[X] (Thrane) your skillmonkey —
    -[X] (Karrn) yourself —
    -[X] (Aundairian) your shield —
    -[X] (Cleanup) ...someone who traveled the Five Nations and called none home.
    [x] Plan: Ristelle-ish
    -[x] (Cyran) your blessed sort —
    -[x] (Brelander) yourself —
    -[x] (Thrane) your mystical rival —
    -[x] (Karrn) your weaponsmaster —
    -[X] (Aundairian) your shield —
    -[x] (Cleanup) ...an accident of the Mournland.
    [X] Plan: Defying Stereotypes Modified
    -[X] (Cyran) your weaponsmaster —
    -[X] (Brelander) your blessed sort —
    -[X] (Thrane) your skillmonkey —
    -[X] (Karrn) yourself —
    -[X] (Aundairian) your shield —
    -[x] (Cleanup) ...an accident of the Mournland.
    [x] Plan: Stereotyping
    -[x] (Cyran) your shield —
    -[x] (Brelander) your skillmonkey —
    -[x] (Thrane) your blessed sort —
    -[x] (Karrn) your weaponsmaster —
    -[x] (Aundairian) your mystical rival —
    -[x] (Cleanup) ...from beyond the current borders of the Five Nations.
 
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0.3: The Heir-To-Be, part 1 (determining the origins of our MC)
(Cyran) your mystical rival —
(Brelander) your blessed sort —
(Thrane) your weaponsmaster —
(Karrn) your skillmonkey —
(Aundairian) your shield —
(Cleanup) ...from beyond the current borders of the Five Nations.


---

That outsider is, of course, you. Your homeland was once considered part of one of the Five Nations of Galifar, but since the Treaty of Thronehold was signed, recognizing many more countries than before, it's better known as...

[] (MC's Homeland) The Eldeen Reaches. The Towering Wood was only ever Aundair's on paper; to the extent that it was "ruled" at all, the druid sect known as the Wardens of the Wood guided the few tribes of people who lived there. The real development was that hundreds of square miles' worth of farming villages, those west of the Wynarn River and north of Lake Galifar, rejected Aundair's control and aligned themselves with Greenheart instead. With a dozen towns no longer paying so much as lip service to either Galifar in general nor any of its provinces in specific, the Eldeen Reaches had enough of a "civilized" presence to be recognized at the negotiating table. Really, though, the whole idea of people being ruled by kings rather than left to help each other strikes you as silly in the first place, and the idea of going to war over it selfish and wasteful.

[] (MC's Homeland) The Mror Holds. Your people were not always united; in the time of King Galifar I, you were so weakened by wars between the dwarven clans that his son Karrn was easily able to conquer you. It was this that prompted you to spend hundreds of years mending the worst of the feuds and build a common society within the Ironroot and Hoarfrost mountains. As such, it wasn't very long after the Last War began that the Mror Holds declared independence from Karrnath and Galifar as a whole. You were able to hold out for decades, easily winning a seat at the negotiating table. From your perspective, the history of your own people is a testament to the folly of civil war.

[] (MC's Homeland) Zilargo. Your country was well-established by the time the humans came to Khorvaire. The three great gnomish cities of the region — Korranberg, the city of paper; Trolanport, the city of water; and Zolanberg, the city of jewels — each have a representative in the Triumvirate, each earning their place through scheming far more extensive than Breland's more restrictive politics. Order is enforced by the Trust, a corp of secret police who could be anyone and anywhere. When the forces of Galifar came to conquer Zilargo during the formation of the kingdom, your people immediately surrendered... only to negotiate very favorable terms that essentially left you a part of the province of Breland on paper but independent in practice. As your people say, "five words defeat a thousand swords". When the Last War escalated to the point that lots of new countries were breaking away through protest and bloodshed, yours simply declared an alliance with Breland, leaving your declaration of full independence in subtext. Really, the entire history of Galifar is just sadly amusing to you.

[] (MC's Homeland) Droaam. Your lands were considered the "western frontier of Breland", but the fact was that the Barrens were always full of various independent tribes, short-lived chiefdoms, and bottle societies, all comprised of peoples blessed by the Shadow with power the conquering humans feared. The peoples of Droaam may embrace the term "monster", as the Dark Six intended, but that doesn't mean you're out to slay people from societies shaped by the jailer gods known as the Sovereign Host if they don't walk into your territory and ask for it. Thirteen years ago, a force greater than any mere chiefdom arose within the Barrens: a circle of hags known as the Daughters of Sora Kell. They named the Barrens Droaam and began bringing order to chaos... something that the other nations refused to accept as worth recognizing. You came to the remains of the Five Nations in hopes of understanding the soft peoples better, in hopes that you could find a way to get more recognition. That Galifar collapsed in what they deem a "civil war" strikes you as an odd thing to fixate over.

[] (MC's Homeland) Darguun. Late in the Last War, a ghaal'dar (hobgoblin, to the gath'dar) now known as Lhesh Haruuc united various dar mercenaries, convincing them to abandon their service to those who invaded the remnants of the long-fallen Dhakaani empire of the ancient past and instead use the equipment obtained through their employment to conquer southeastern Cyre. Today, he rules over the region, now known as the nation of Darguun — the self-declared successor to the empire of Dhakaan. It isn't clear how long the new dar nation will last after his death, given that there's been relatively little unity since the initial conquest. You find your people's stubborn clinging to tribes of the traditional size to be counterproductive, and first came to try to understand the larger "tribes" that are Aundair, Breland, Thrane, and Karrnath. That you found a small warband that believes even these nations are too small and weak compared to the empire they once comprised has been enlightening.

[] (MC's Homeland) The Talenta Plains. The entire concept of "control of land" has always struck the Talenta peoples — the various tribes of halfling nomads — as odd. When it turned into outright combat in the western part of the plains, that confusion morphed into outright horror. Your peoples were forced to band together to fight off those who made it too difficult for those tribes who regularly wandered that way to live. You even established a council of tribal leaders to help organize these efforts, which has proven useful for the pursuit of other shared interests as well. This council and the loose alliance it represents was given some kind of ritual blessing by the settled nations a few years ago; it didn't completely make sense to you at the time, but it did lead to peaceful trade between the shared town of Gatherhold and the settled nations. Your tribe was a southern one, suffering from the twin problems of the slow expansion of the Blade Desert and elven raiders from Valenar. Ultimately, it has reluctantly decided to disband in the face of these obstacles. The majority have successfully petitioned to marry into different halfling tribes, but a sizable minority, yourself included, opted instead to move into the settled lands. Adventuring seemed like the way you could contribute to settled society best, and while this party's perspective on unity contrasts intriguingly with the one the Talenta peoples were driven to, you all agree that unity is strength.

---

(From a story perspective, this one's very, very short — but frankly, it's hard to write much more without narrowing down the perspective being written from. I considered also including Valenar, but I figured that was too Hard Mode for all involved...)
 
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[X] (MC's Homeland) Droaam. Your lands were considered the "western frontier of Breland", but the fact was that the Barrens were always full of various independent tribes, short-lived chiefdoms, and bottle societies, all comprised of peoples blessed by the Shadow with power the conquering humans feared. The peoples of Droaam may embrace the term "monster", as the Dark Six intended, but that doesn't mean you're out to slay people from societies shaped by the jailer gods known as the Sovereign Host if they don't walk into your territory and ask for it. Thirteen years ago, a force greater than any mere chiefdom arose within the Barrens: a circle of hags known as the Daughters of Sora Kell. They named the Barrens Droaam and began bringing order to chaos... something that the other nations refused to accept as worth recognizing. You came to the remains of the Five Nations in hopes of understanding the soft peoples better, in hopes that you could find a way to get more recognition. That Galifar collapsed in what they deem a "civil war" strikes you as an odd thing to fixate over.

And, shamelessly, I'm going to stuff a write-in here as well...

[X] (MC's Homeland) Write-In: The Seawall Mountains. Depending on which side of a line on a map it happened to fall, your home might be considered part of Darguun or Zilargo, but such a distinction is meaningless; your tribe has held their territory for generations, and any of the warm who thought to take it for their own learned to their cost just how dangerous kobolds could be. For the most part, your people have no interest in the affairs of dar, gnomes, or anyone else so long as they do not encroach on your territory... but you yourself were drawn to leave your tribe and find out about the other peoples of Khorvaire when your tribe's blood seer imparted to you the content of one of their visions... As for the war being waged around your people beyond their notice, you find the whole matter almost incomprehensibly strange; when your own tribe has grown enough to risk being difficult to manage effectively, half your number are selected to leave and establish a new tribe elsewhere. Why anyone would seek to serve as leader over so many disparate tribes is beyond you.
 
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[X] (MC's Homeland) The Eldeen Reaches. The Towering Wood was only ever Aundair's on paper; to the extent that it was "ruled" at all, the druid sect known as the Wardens of the Wood guided the few tribes of people who lived there. The real development was that hundreds of square miles' worth of farming villages, those west of the Wynarn River and north of Lake Galifar, rejected Aundair's control and aligned themselves with Greenheart instead. With a dozen towns no longer paying so much as lip service to either Galifar in general nor any of its provinces in specific, the Eldeen Reaches had enough of a "civilized" presence to be recognized at the negotiating table. Really, though, the whole idea of people being ruled by kings rather than left to help each other strikes you as silly in the first place, and the idea of going to war over it selfish and wasteful.
 
[X] (MC's Homeland) The Eldeen Reaches.

Since this is the only one that gives us a shot at being human and Valenar wasn't an option.
 
Since this is the only one that gives us a shot at being human and Valenar wasn't an option.

Eh, I wouldn't say so. Some of them imply a particular species to some degree or another, but humans are pretty common in Khorvaire. Certainly a human from Zilargo is a real possibility.

(Says the player who put a backstory Gatekeeper druid in rural Breland into their PC's backstory, then while fleshing things out decided she was a halfling from Talenta instead of the orc my DM was kind of expecting. :p )
 
[X] (MC's Homeland) The Mror Holds

For the record, regardless of what origin/race we pick, I recommend everyone view the relevant articles written by Keith Baker himself here. They're going to be very useful to understand the mindsets of our PC. And for the setting as well.
 
Eh, I wouldn't say so. Some of them imply a particular species to some degree or another, but humans are pretty common in Khorvaire. Certainly a human from Zilargo is a real possibility.

(Says the player who put a backstory Gatekeeper druid in rural Breland into their PC's backstory, then while fleshing things out decided she was a halfling from Talenta instead of the orc my DM was kind of expecting. :p )

Though the phrasing of the Darguun option does suggest a goblinoid of some kind. While there are humans in Darguun, they're basically oppressed ex-Cyrans, the remnants of the people who lived there before Lhesh Haruuc's conquest of what was then southern Cyre.


For the record, regardless of what origin/race we pick, I recommend everyone view the relevant articles written by Keith Baker himself here. They're going to be very useful to understand the mindsets of our PC. And for the setting as well.

I especially recommend the Common Knowledge article. While this group would've been adventuring long enough to know better about some of these things, and in particular would've changed the general public's minds about how plausible the idea of bad-dream-demons trying to take over the world is in the course of their adventures, it's still overall a good quick look at how your average, non-adventuring citizen of the Five Nations sees things.

I should also note, though, that I got into Eberron while some of the attraction was the looseness of the setting compared to the Realms, and got into D&D back when in general the idea of D&D as a creative medium was a stronger thread than that of D&D as a game console. While I overall tend to favor Keith Baker's takes over WotC's, and newer canon over older, I could go the other way on either point or just go in my own direction at times. (In particular, I feel like both sides have bad takes on the underlying nature of divinity in Eberron, each stemming from different biases, both excluding people like me who don't neatly fit into traditional theism or atheism.)
 
So far we have a tie... again. Clock is ticking now. ...I just hope the thing counts correctly this time, because I have no idea how to actually make it do so.

Meanwhile, I've had so many ideas for ways to approach the MC's build that I suspect making an actual decision may require two rounds of voting — one to pick one of four general types of build, one for one of three narratively-described specific builds that are of that type. If you'd rather have a dozen different narratively-described builds dumped into your lap all at once, though, let me know.

Two other party members will be predetermined; the party's Cyran full-on mage type I figure I should specifically choose to contrast our MC, and I have ideas concerning what to do with an Aundairian tank. As for the Karrnathi skillmonkey, Brelish divine or primal caster, and Thrane weaponmaster, I figure it's best to have general but not specific votes; I can "solve for X", putting together an overall party that makes sense, from there.

Since people seem to have few opinions on skill rules, I've added the skills themselves to the Rule Information post without getting into any of the actual changes in the math that will be involved.
 
The skill list looks good to me. As for the tie... well, if there's still one before the final call, I'll swap mine to break it.
 
The skill list looks good to me.

A few design notes on it: I used both the official PF1 Consolidated Skills system and the version in the Kingmaker video game as starting points. The big changes from either of those are moving Endurance out of the feat list and into the skill list, turning several skills that didn't make it into either version of the subsystem into Craftsmanship, introducing a martial-centric skill to fill both the role of ToB's Martial Lore/PoW's knowledge (martial) and also fill some general gaps I've observed in the skill system over the years ("what do you roll to tell a Monk from a Brawler or a Rogue from a Scout?" being a big one if one is embracing 3.x's panoply of base classes), and remixing the nature-focused vicinity of skills to avoid an uberskill even by this system's standards.
 
So it's been a day and a half since the last vote. I'd close the vote early, except we still have a tie that can't really be reconciled because the Eldeen Reaches and Darguun are pretty distant from each other, with rather different implications.
 
So it's been a day and a half since the last vote. I'd close the vote early, except we still have a tie that can't really be reconciled because the Eldeen Reaches and Darguun are pretty distant from each other, with rather different implications.

Don't worry. I'm swapping my vote. Hobgoblin sounds interesting.

[x] (MC's Homeland) Darguun.
 
0.3 Vote Results: ...I need to catch up on my novel-reading, don't I
Adhoc vote count started by MrRageQuit on Oct 29, 2022 at 6:56 PM, finished with 15 posts and 8 votes.

  • [x] (MC's Homeland) Darguun.
    [x] (MC's Homeland) The Eldeen Reaches.
    [X] (MC's Homeland) Droaam. Your lands were considered the "western frontier of Breland", but the fact was that the Barrens were always full of various independent tribes, short-lived chiefdoms, and bottle societies, all comprised of peoples blessed by the Shadow with power the conquering humans feared. The peoples of Droaam may embrace the term "monster", as the Dark Six intended, but that doesn't mean you're out to slay people from societies shaped by the jailer gods known as the Sovereign Host if they don't walk into your territory and ask for it. Thirteen years ago, a force greater than any mere chiefdom arose within the Barrens: a circle of hags known as the Daughters of Sora Kell. They named the Barrens Droaam and began bringing order to chaos... something that the other nations refused to accept as worth recognizing. You came to the remains of the Five Nations in hopes of understanding the soft peoples better, in hopes that you could find a way to get more recognition. That Galifar collapsed in what they deem a "civil war" strikes you as an odd thing to fixate over.
    [X] (MC's Homeland) Write-In: The Seawall Mountains. Depending on which side of a line on a map it happened to fall, your home might be considered part of Darguun or Zilargo, but such a distinction is meaningless; your tribe has held their territory for generations, and any of the warm who thought to take it for their own learned to their cost just how dangerous kobolds could be. For the most part, your people have no interest in the affairs of dar, gnomes, or anyone else so long as they do not encroach on your territory... but you yourself were drawn to leave your tribe and find out about the other peoples of Khorvaire when your tribe's blood seer imparted to you the content of one of their visions... As for the war being waged around your people beyond their notice, you find the whole matter almost incomprehensibly strange; when your own tribe has grown enough to risk being difficult to manage effectively, half your number are selected to leave and establish a new tribe elsewhere. Why anyone would seek to serve as leader over so many disparate tribes is beyond you.
    [X] (MC's Homeland) The Mror Holds


Vote ended early due to lack of late interest.
 
0.4: The Heir-To-Be, part 2 (what kind of dar are you, and what broad kind of build do you have?)
(MC's Homeland) Darguun. Late in the Last War, a ghaal'dar (hobgoblin, to the gath'dar) now known as Lhesh Haruuc united various dar mercenaries, convincing them to abandon their service to those who invaded the remnants of the long-fallen Dhakaani empire of the ancient past and instead use the equipment obtained through their employment to conquer southeastern Cyre. Today, he rules over the region, now known as the nation of Darguun — the self-declared successor to the empire of Dhakaan. It isn't clear how long the new dar nation will last after his death, given that there's been relatively little unity since the initial conquest. You find your people's stubborn clinging to tribes of the traditional size to be counterproductive, and first came to try to understand the larger "tribes" that are Aundair, Breland, Thrane, and Karrnath. That you found a small warband that believes even these nations are too small and weak compared to the empire they once comprised has been enlightening.

---

The climax of your series of adventures in Dal Quor was also enlightening in a different way. It is said that in the time of Dhakaan, during what the humans and those aligned with them call the "Age of Monsters", your people were more united and collaborative. It didn't take the actions of strong warlords like Lhesh Haruuc to drive large-scale collective action; the Dhakaani Empire itself was cause enough for thousands of years after the great duur'kala bard Jhazaal Dhakaan met with the Six Kings and shared a dream of an empire with them and their people. You had long assumed that dream to be of the metaphorical sort. You were taken aback by the discovery that the Uul Dhakaan was a literal stable dreamscape guarded by an order of monks. What did this imply about your people's ability to stay united now?

You knew the tales of Dyrrn the Corruptor cursing the dar with the Kapaa'vola as he was sealed beneath the Ironroot Mountains, causing the empire to crumble over the course of 400 years. Clearly, in context, part of what he had done was to sever the connection between the dar and the Uul Dhakaan. The other part, you knew from your studies, was to damage the dar penchant for order and sanity. Directed cruelty and enlightened self-interest gave way to sadism; cooperation gave way to domination and slavery; a desire to suppress irrational thought and keep those who drew power from it at arm's length gave way to cults spreading across Khorvaire.

While the imposition of chaos onto the dar is something you suspect had already faded by the time the humans came, it was still reflected in the fragmentation and savagery of the clans the humans found. It is sadly unsurprising that they initially jumped to the conclusion that the Dhakaani ruins were of human design rather than "goblinoid", as they called you. At the time, they slaughtered many dar and enslaved many golin'dar in particular in order to carve out kingdoms and eventually an empire of their own, earning the epithet of chaat'oor — defilers. To their credit, they improved, ending the practice of enslaving "goblins", recognizing them and the other "goblinoids" as equals, and recognizing the evidence staring them in the faces that the Dhakaani ruins were in fact of dar make... but golin'dar are still primarily residents of the slums in gath'dar cities.

Meanwhile, the other two common varieties of dar, ghaal'dar and guul'dar — "hobgoblins" and "bugbears" respectively in Common — became the primary leaders of most clans of dar, admitting golin'dar and the rarer varieties such as uul'dar and taarka'dar only as slaves. The primary exception are the Silent Clans, golin'dar clans known for their monks and ninja. Many clans, especially bugbear-dominated ones like the Marguul, were disinterested in Lhesh Haruuc's efforts at claiming territory during the Last War as anything more than an excuse to kill chaat'oor. Meanwhile, you're from one of the Ghaal'dar clans more strongly aligned with his ideals, abandoning slavery and pursuing a revival of the concepts of muut and atcha. Many gath'dar carelessly translate both as "honor", but you believe more accurate translations would be "duty" and "glory".

But enough reminiscence. Raat shi anaa.

Your warband, or "adventuring party" as most people call it, has returned to the abandoned draconic astral citadel you all discovered. It's large, so you've had to spend a week coming and going in order to fight your way through it. You suspect that today will be the final push that will allow you to discover the last of its treasures... at least, the ones easily taken. It would theoretically be possible to remove some of the gold inlays and semiprecious stone furniture to sell, but you insist that these are better kept in place so that you can give historians a more accurate tour once it's safe.

You stand out from the rest of your warband as dar, of course, specifically...

[] (Species) ...ghaal'dar, or a hobgoblin — the ones gath'dar most perceive as leaders.
[] (Species) ...golin'dar, or a goblin — long the most oppressed of the dar, your kind are finally earning respect outside of the Silent Clans.
[] (Species) ...uul'dar, or a blue — a variety of golin'dar with unusual psionic potential.

You contribute to it in a variety of ways, but uninformed people typically oversimplify your skillset as...

[] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...a warrior-arcanist. You heard someone in the neighborhood of Overlook in Sharn use the term "gish" once, whatever that means. (These builds each involve several levels of a spellbook-based or similar class, a dip of a non-casting class, and many levels of a prestige class that brings the two together.)
[] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...a bard. While you do carry on the traditions of the duur'kala, there are many ways to go about bardic training. (Exactly what it says on the tin.)
[] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...a potent magic-user with a mundane skillset to back it up. That's certainly one way to put it... (I fully admit this is the "miscellaneous" option.)
[] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...involving "Sarlonan magic". Only kalashtar seem to know much about psionics, and not even all of them know that the Sarlonan tradition is only the most developed... (All the psionic build ideas go here.)

---

(Treatment of goblinoids in Eberron has changed a good bit over the years. They started out being presented more as an unambiguous "bad guy faction", only to become more nuanced later and shed a number of the meaner aspects... among those writers who were paying attention, anyway.

I also figure that regardless of your votes, the MC has some investment in the Society skill. Also, not offering bugbear or varag as options because it would be kind of hard to adhere to the earlier mandate of a magical jack effectively that way.)
 
[x] (Species) ...golin'dar, or a goblin — long the most oppressed of the dar, your kind are finally earning respect outside of the Silent Clans.
[x] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...a warrior-arcanist. You heard someone in the neighborhood of Overlook in Sharn use the term "gish" once, whatever that means. (These builds each involve several levels of a spellbook-based or similar class, a dip of a non-casting class, and many levels of a prestige class that brings the two together.)

To continue breaking stereotype, and because I like gish.
 
[X] (Species) ...uul'dar, or a blue — a variety of golin'dar with unusual psionic potential.
[X] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...a warrior-arcanist. You heard someone in the neighborhood of Overlook in Sharn use the term "gish" once, whatever that means. (These builds each involve several levels of a spellbook-based or similar class, a dip of a non-casting class, and many levels of a prestige class that brings the two together.)
[X] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...involving "Sarlonan magic". Only kalashtar seem to know much about psionics, and not even all of them know that the Sarlonan tradition is only the most developed... (All the psionic build ideas go here.)
 
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[x] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...a warrior-arcanist. You heard someone in the neighborhood of Overlook in Sharn use the term "gish" once, whatever that means. (These builds each involve several levels of a spellbook-based or similar class, a dip of a non-casting class, and many levels of a prestige class that brings the two together.)

Gish is good.
 
[X] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...a potent magic-user with a mundane skillset to back it up. That's certainly one way to put it... (I fully admit this is the "miscellaneous" option.)
 
[X] (Species) ...uul'dar, or a blue — a variety of golin'dar with unusual psionic potential.
[X] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...a warrior-arcanist. You heard someone in the neighborhood of Overlook in Sharn use the term "gish" once, whatever that means. (These builds each involve several levels of a spellbook-based or similar class, a dip of a non-casting class, and many levels of a prestige class that brings the two together.)
 
[x] (Species) ...golin'dar, or a goblin — long the most oppressed of the dar, your kind are finally earning respect outside of the Silent Clans.
[x] (Magical Jack Build Group) ...a warrior-arcanist. You heard someone in the neighborhood of Overlook in Sharn use the term "gish" once, whatever that means. (These builds each involve several levels of a spellbook-based or similar class, a dip of a non-casting class, and many levels of a prestige class that brings the two together.)
 
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