If possible I think the Yankee State should be the 'Caesar's Legion' of China, in the sense of being out and out the obviously morally worst choice of factions. A dysfunctional state led by the crazed remnants of Fascist Stormtroopers? In no way is such a state going to be remotely good for the Chinese Wasteland.
Any scenario where the Yankee State 'wins' the conflict in the region should be a kind of 'rocks fall, everyone dies' situation where the surviving thugs of the Fascist United States no longer have the numbers and equipment to inflict their brand of cruelty on the region. Far from creating a stable regional power, the Yankee State is overthrown and the region falls back into conflict between various factions but this time the conflict in the region is fought with even less advance technology, by humans that have lost even more knowledge of the Old World and are even more Savage than before, because that was how they had to survive against the reprisals of the Yankee State.
In essence, the victory of the Yankee State instead creates a 'fail state' of sort for the region ensuring it will never (in the near future) rise again as a united region. Order in the Region will have to be imposed from the outside, such is the destruction and taint left by the Fascists.
Personally I always felt like Ceasars legion was the weakest part of New Vegas, excusable only because the game is pretty amazing as is when you consider they made the whole thing in 18 months, precisely because in a game otherwise filled with interesting factions whose values made sense in the context of their environment and could be seen as the right answer for the wasteland from a certain point of view, you have these comically evil dipshits that just feel unfinished, like the devs didn't have time to properly write them before the game had to be shipped out.
So personally I would want a faction a little bit more fleshed out then that out of them, at least if they are intended to be a joinable one rather then one of those always hostile groups that exist for you to take down in side quests like raiders.
I think it was pretty much confirmed by the devs that they had to cut a lot of Legion content; Ulysses was originally supposed to be a companion exclusive to them. While I think it's appropriate to have a downright nasty faction be part of the joinable factions (since 'nasty' does not mean 'irrational' or 'unsustainable'), they could have been made a lot more interesting by showing a regular settlement under the Legion's authority. As for the Yankee Nation, the thing that keeps them from being totally self-destructive is that they do allow their recruits to 'attain citizenship', though this again is just a euphemism for cultural assimilation and authoritarian subordination. As Verhoeven put it: would you like to know more?
August 2065
Beijing, the Office of the State Planning Commission
"The roc wings fanwise,
Soaring ninety thousand li
And rousing a raging cyclone.
The blue sky on his back, he looks down
To survey Man's world with its towns and cities.
Gunfire licks the heavens,
Shells pit the earth.
A sparrow in his bush is scared stiff..
"This is one hell of a mess!
O I want to flit and fly away."
"Where, may I ask?"
The sparrow replies,
"To a jewelled palace in elfland's hills.
Don't you know a triple pact was signed
Under the bright autumn moon two years ago?
There'll be plenty to eat,
Potatoes piping hot,
Beef-filled goulash."
"Stop your windy nonsense!
Look, the world is being turned upside down.""
Ren Jie studied the Great Helmsman's poem as she waited for her appointment. Even after all these years, she still wasn't sure which of the two birds she resembled more. Was it the naive but utopian sparrow, or the detached but analytical roc? Perhaps that had been Mao's point, that most revolutionaries were really supposed to be both at once. In other words, it was dialectical! How clever.
That reading of it satisfied her pondering mind, at least for a few minutes longer. By then, the attendant had come to take her to the minister's office. A robot, one of those new Siberian model. As it walked ahead, she could make out the cyrillic branding on its back: STAKHANOV no. 0451. Despicable. Of course, it was up to the minister, they'd be rolling out domestic "Wang Jinxi" variants before long. It was one of the few things she disagreed with him on. She hoped therefore that the present meeting would not concern that sort of thing. As the head of the ministry's Labor Bureau, she was not about to sign off on the death of the proletariat.
One hallway followed another, the robot's rough footsteps echoing loudly off the stone flooring. The escort was entirely useless, of course; Jie knew where her minister's office was, and this was all just a bit of security theater. But these were insecure times, and even an underminister would not escape suspicion. Especially when that underminister had a history of proximity to unreliable elements. Oh well, she thought. Let them see I have nothing to hide.
Soon, they had reached the minister's office. As it opened, Jie was hit with the glare which emanated from its floor-to-ceiling windows. Blinking painfully, she stumbled into the room, only to find that multiple unknown people were present. They rose in response to her arrival.
"There she is!" said the minister from behind his extensive desk. "And not a moment too late. Please, let me introduce you to our guests." He wheeled himself towards her, gesturing to each visitor in turn.
A firm handshake. "Nice to meet you, comrade minister."
"Likewise."
Then, a somewhat hunched, bespectacled figure, seemingly more at home in a lab coat. "Shen Jiahoa, of the Academy of Sciences." No words were exchanged. The man appeared distracted. His name sounded vaguely familiar.
Finally, a woman of sophistication, judging by her style and pleasant countenance. "And this is Lin Mengyi, of the Party Commission on Proletarian Culture." Ah, thought Jie, if that's her highest office, then she's probably from the Propaganda Department.
The woman smiled at her. "Happy to meet you."
"Yes, definitely."
But why is she here? Why are any of these people here?
They all took a seat, their chairs forming a vague parabola with the minister's desk as its focus. Zhang Lifeng had already wheeled himself back into place, withdrawing a dossier from one the drawers and theatrically throwing it onto his desk.
"Now, I do not wish to keep you guessing any longer. Good relationships are built on honesty. And I have felt a strong need to be candid after reading what's in there."
Curious, Shen Jiahao reached for the dossier. The minister pulled it back a bit.
"In a moment, professor! Don't worry, there are copies for each of you in there, should I grant you the clearance to read it. In your case, I do not expect you'll find it all too surprising. But you need to let me introduce it first."
The academic retreated, mumbling an apology.
"It's perfectly alright, professor. I would be curious too in such eclectic company. Rest assured that you were personally selected for this task, as were all of you. As for the present document, I can tell you that it came to me from the Intelligence Bureau of the Joint Staff Department. It consists of a set of social, military, and environmental projections, each of them describing the likeliest outcomes of a state of general thermonuclear conflict. I can also tell you that these outcomes are not necessarily to our advantage."
The minister fell silent for a moment, unsure of how to continue.
Well, he said he preferred honesty. "How bad is it?"
He sighed. "Frankly, many of these statistics are beyond me. I understand the demographics; our nation would be lucky to retain one million of its citizens in the immediate aftermath of a total nuclear conflict. Over the long term, however, the radioactive aspect of this exchange would be the overriding factor. Perhaps professor Shen can speak to this."
The academic perked up. "Uhm, yes, I have seen similar projections. The nuclear residue, or fallout, involved in such a conflict would be quite significant. Barring proper protection, it would not be conducive to human life. This is to say nothing of the greater environmental impact, which would be…unpredictable."
At last, Ren Jie remembered where she'd heard Shen's name. It was in Science Pictorial, in a feature on radiation studies. No wonder he was here.
"Excuse me, professor." The Lieutenant General spoke up. "You mention 'proper protection'. I assume you mean shelters?"
"Something of the sort, yes. Also filters, preserved goods, radiation suits. In general, a total isolation from the polluted areas."
"And for how long would this be necessary?"
"I could not say without the relevant military data." He turned to the minister.
I bet he could say, actually. He just doesn't want to be the one to say it.
Zhang didn't look too happy either. "The briefing I got spoke of a 'Century of Annihilation'. And this seems to be towards the lower end of the scale."
Centuries of uninhabitability? Nobody was going to survive that. One might as well forget about it.
"Who knows of this?" asked Lin Mengyi.
"As of now? You me, much of the CMC. The politburo will be briefed later this week."
"We were briefed before the central committee?"
"Yes, madam Lin, and for good reason too. We wish to avoid any alarmism. It would not do to present a problem…"
"...without also proposing a solution." Ren Jie knew all his favorite sayings. "You want us to do something about this."
The minister smiled ever so slightly. "Very astute, comrade Ren. Yes, I have discussed this with the General Secretary, and we both believe this crisis should be preempted. But any institutional approach requires a proper vanguard. That is why I called upon you."
"You want us to lead this effort?"
"No comrade, I want you to lead it. These three will be your capable department heads."
At that moment, confronted with the terror of the task before her, Jie felt more like Mao's sparrow than she ever had before.
By the time the meeting was over, it was already close to evening. Minister Zhang had invited her to have dinner at a party establishment, so that they could further discuss the matter of her appointment. By that time, she had also had a chance to look through the military brief. Before dinner was done, she was already drinking heavily. Only at dessert, her tongue sufficiently loosened, did she turn to her most burning questions.
"So," Jie asked, "how will this shit be organized?"
The minister grinned despite himself. "As promised by the General Secretary, the 'Ministry of Revolutionary Preparedness' shall have all the resources it needs to secure our most vital assets against a century of fallout, or else to shorten the duration of that emergency period."
Jie scoffed. "That's going to need a whole lot of resources. The other ministries won't be happy with that."
"Maybe. But I'm the one who sets their budgets. Moreover, I'll be directing the necessary departmental work through a dedicated commission on the State Council. That way, you won't direct each and every initiative. Policy should be sufficient in most instances."
Jie took a bite of something sweet. "They'll still get angry if we tell them how to conduct their affairs. Especially if our standards cut into the margins of their enterprises. We'll need to give them something in return."
"Did you expect anything less?"
"No."
A few more bites, a sip of her drink.
"So why Lin? Construction, research, those I understand. A propagandist, though?"
"What do you suppose is the alternative, Jie? We put these projections in the People's Daily?"
"I assumed we weren't going to say much of anything."
"That wouldn't do. The people always know, even if they only whisper. The best antidote to that is action, motivation. Lin Mengyi is the best we have in that regard. She's aligned all the superstitions already; what is this if not one more irrational fear?"
"The end of the world?"
"Not if you do your job right."
That brought them to the very heart of the matter.
"Why me, Lifeng? Why not any of them?"
"Because they are best where I put them. As are you, Jie. I know what you are going to say, because you think I consider you unreliable. Nothing could be less true. Few were tested like you, and fewer still made the right choice. This task, it calls for someone who is unorthodox, but stops short of crossing the line. Tell me that doesn't describe you."
"I don't know."
"Well, I do. I know you, Jie, and I know how you will act as doomsday approaches. Please, for your own sake, don't go the other way this time."
There was a veiled threat in those words, a reminder of the past they shared. Twenty years ago, she had been put through her own, personal doomsday. It was Zhang who had talked her off the ledge, keeping her from making the same suicidal mistake as her friends. He was her savior, then, but he also liked to remind her of those days.
Jie did not need the reminder. She would not betray herself.
"I'll do it."
"Good." He reached in his bag, pulled out a second document. "Here are a few decisions that will need to be made before we brief the politburo."
"We?"
"Well, yes." He smiled. "You are a minister now, after all."
Introductory Vote (draft)
"So, first off, I'm going to need you to pick an official deputy from among your department heads. They'll also be in charge of the State Council Commission's General Office, which will also guide your overall budget priorities."
Professor Shen Jiahao (Academy of sciences)
Aspiration: Reveal the Beneficent Effects of Radiation
Lin Mengyi (CCP Propaganda Department)
Aspiration: Redeem the Ancient Philosophers
Zhu Yuannong (Infrastructure Engineering Corps)
Aspiration: Protect the Red Guards
"Next, we need to decide which ministries will get a spot on the State Council Commission. Most of them are obvious, and some are too influential to deny. But there are also a few odd candidates. If we let them all on immediately, we won't be taken seriously. But one alone couldn't hurt."
"Now for the hard part. It's clear that we'll have to focus our efforts on some regions at the expense of others. Some areas will simply be too far gone to bother with. This even goes for the capital; the General Secretary does not wish to waste resources on all of our major cities. Of Beijing, Shanghai, and Chongqing, you only get to pick one."
Beijing
Shanghai
Chongqing
"Our main focus will be on those regions that are already well developed, but which also have the sparser areas we would need to establish our own facilities. Out of these six, you get to prioritize half of them."
Liaoning
Shandong
Sichuan
Guangdong
Henan
Hunan
"Finally, there are the fallback areas, those that are neither developed nor densely populated. The Americans won't be targeting them too heavily, but we'll also have a harder time building here. Pick two."
Thought I'd draft up a turn 0; no voting please, this would go in its own dedicated quest thread. Let me know how you like this setup. I'll expand on the specific province and deputy bonuses when the game starts.
Also, I spent the last few days in a morass of Chinese party-state bureaucracy, hence all the wiki links. Please clap.
I have a whole digression on how pre-communist Chinese culture is being interpreted. Long story short, Lin Mengyi is playing a dangerous game at present, and all the more so if the full extent of her aspirations becomes apparent. That isn't to say she doesn't have sympathizers though, even within the party. You'll see.
I'd probably vote for General Zhu and the Foreign Affairs Department for sure. The regions are a bit harder. Tentatively I'd say Chongqing as the major region. For secondary, Sichuan, Henan and Hunan. Tertiary region would be Yunnan.
For my pick, I'm picking Foreign Affairs because it sounds the most interesting and I think Space Development is pointless in this scenario. Espionage is practical but is just less interesting than Foreign Affairs to me.
The region picks are all based around rebuilding Chongqing and the regions directly around it. So basically Western-South-Western-China will be the basis of post-Apocalyptic Chinese Civilization.
Yunnan is absolutely vital to my choice if I decide to with Foreign Affairs because it borders Vietnam, Laos and Myanmar and I want to see if there's any synergy to be found in those two choices.
So I've been thinking about how to adapt Eve of Destruction's estimation of regional survival. For the record, this is its own model:
Water
Food
Energy
Industry
Medical Infrastructure
Knowledge
Population
Security
Environment
Missile Defense
Now, this is a little too complicated for my liking, so I've adjusted it to the following:
Environment: Speaks for itself, it's the degree to which the local ecology is made uninhabitable by the bombs. Can be mitigated by simply having it be less bombed, or by making sure there are sufficient seed vaults, foresters, and other such resources. Will have a major impact Subsistence unless the latter is based on enclosed forms of agriculture.
Subsistence: How well the post-nuclear population can sustain itself physiologically. Food and water are obvious contributors, but I would also like to fold basic medicine in there.
Industry: If people survive, how well will they be able to reestablish the existing systems of industrial production? Subsistence automatically adds to this too, since there are more people to produce, but it also helps to have more infrastructure around, or to preserve the knowledge to build more of it.
Knowledge: The practical and technical knowhow needed to do everything else. All stats benefit from greater knowledge, but especially Industry and Subsistence, since you can use knowledge to mitigate limiting factors like environmental loss
Network: How well a given region can connect to those around it. Trade, migration, but also knowledge exchange. A high Network can help one region overcome its own deficiencies by relying on its neighbors. Can be improved by building infrastructure, but a hypothetical computerized network can also help to spread Knowledge around.
Lemme know if this sounds like a useful framework!
So I've been thinking about how to adapt Eve of Destruction's estimation of regional survival. For the record, this is its own model:
Water
Food
Energy
Industry
Medical Infrastructure
Knowledge
Population
Security
Environment
Missile Defense
Now, this is a little too complicated for my liking, so I've adjusted it to the following:
Environment: Speaks for itself, it's the degree to which the local ecology is made uninhabitable by the bombs. Can be mitigated by simply having it be less bombed, or by making sure there are sufficient seed vaults, foresters, and other such resources. Will have a major impact Subsistence unless the latter is based on enclosed forms of agriculture.
Subsistence: How well the post-nuclear population can sustain itself physiologically. Food and water are obvious contributors, but I would also like to fold basic medicine in there.
Industry: If people survive, how well will they be able to reestablish the existing systems of industrial production? Subsistence automatically adds to this too, since there are more people to produce, but it also helps to have more infrastructure around, or to preserve the knowledge to build more of it.
Knowledge: The practical and technical knowhow needed to do everything else. All stats benefit from greater knowledge, but especially Industry and Subsistence, since you can use knowledge to mitigate limiting factors like environmental loss
Network: How well a given region can connect to those around it. Trade, migration, but also knowledge exchange. A high Network can help one region overcome its own deficiencies by relying on its neighbors. Can be improved by building infrastructure, but a hypothetical computerized network can also help to spread Knowledge around.
Lemme know if this sounds like a useful framework!
For the most part this works imo, although personally I'd suggest making medicine it's own category outside of food and water to account for the usually much more complex process of making pharmaceuticals and such.
For the most part this works imo, although personally I'd suggest making medicine it's own category outside of food and water to account for the usually much more complex process of making pharmaceuticals and such.
It's tricky, because it's also far more specific than the categories as they stand, and its effects ultimately comes down to "people get to live", which is already covered by Subsistence. What I think I'll do is have medical projects contribute to a combination of stats at once, probably Subsistence, Industry, and Knowledge.
By the by, I'm curious what you see the end point of this quest to be? In EVE, from what I understand, Bird was going to have us play as a pre-war organization till the bombs dropped and then we'd take control of a faction in the new wasteland that was formed by the consequences of our pre-war actions. I don't know if that's still on the table, but that was what the plan was suppose to be.
By the by, I'm curious what you see the end point of this quest to be? In EVE, from what I understand, Bird was going to have us play as a pre-war organization till the bombs dropped and then we'd take control of a faction in the new wasteland that was formed by the consequences of our pre-war actions. I don't know if that's still on the table, but that was what the plan was suppose to be.
Well, you'll definitely be in charge of the Ministry of Revolutionary Preparedness until the bombs drop. And maybe even for a short while afterwards, if parts of your organization manage to cling on. To think any further ahead seems hubristic at the moment.
A big part of Eve of Destruction that I found particularly compelling was being a dissident who was trying to hamper the fascism of the USA. The push and pull was compelling in its own right. In fact I agree with AKuz's post from earlier. The USA was rapidly collapsing. So much so that it would make logical sense for them to press the button and let the missiles fly so that the Enclave could come in and resecure the nation after all the dissidents against their rule were wiped out.
This fight against the collapse, and pull towards trying to build something better to rise from the ashes, is something that would be interesting to see from a Chinese perspective. But I don't want to make any assumptions, and I'm interested in where this idea is going.
As far as the preliminary update you've given, it looks like it could be fun, it seems to have mostly interpersonal tensions as the sort of push and pull? I guess that's what most inter-party dynamics are, plays between personalities. This could just be my westernness speaking of course. Maybe there is a layer to this that I'm not seeing and need pointed out.
To put my question as clearly as possible since I feel I'm rambling again, the update betrays no dissent within Chinese society, so I'm wondering how harmonious Chinese society would be presented to us as the player?
Would we be able to influence the Chinese wasteland in the same vein as eve? Would we be able to ensure the survival of radical democracy, of cadres that wish to bring back the spirit of the Shanghai commune? Could we work towards protecting Nanjie and spread it's way of organization through deliberate efforts or happenstance?
With Eve I felt the best message I could take away from what it was trying to say via its mechanics and progression was "build a better world in spite of the horrors of the old", and I guess I'm wondering if that is also your intention with this depiction of China.
No worries, the ramble is much appreciated! And your analysis is mostly on point. On the one hand, the conflict within Chinese society is less apparent here than it is in Eve, though it could become quite toxic with the right catalyst. Don't forget, this introduction is set before the outbreak of the war with America, which is sure to stress the system. But already, there is trouble on the horizon. I mention China's puppet regime in Siberia, the party seems divided on the question of automation, and a propagandist like Lin is more interested in who knows about the oncoming apocalypse than its actual extent.
I suppose what makes all this different from Eve is that I do want to communicate a sense that part of the party-state is redeemable, moreso than its American counterpart. The radical elements you allude to are just one example of that. Plus, if the state tries to include all of society, then it necessarily enclosed the good parts as well. Thus, there's no way of breaking free from either its good or its evil, it's all terribly intertwined. With Eve, you at least had specific dissident organizations to empower, however futile their struggle. Here, since outright factionalism is banned and the party tries to manage all parts of society, everyone is both a loyalist and a dissident by necessity. That's the politics I'm trying to communicate through the characters. Keep in mind though that the introduction is focused on relatively privileged insiders; once the nature of the projects and their impact becomes clear, all of this will seem a lot less rosy.
Edit: basically, if you're wondering whether this will be more or less bleak than Eve, then the answer is that it's a bit of both. On the one hand, you can't even pretend to be fighting the system because the system is everything, but at the same time, that also means that there is something you don't want to lose to the bombs.
China by this point had severe resource shortages iirc, to the point that they were desperate enough to attack Alaska, so that, and the dissent that would arise from this and from 50s style politics remaining in place for decades, should definitely be represented.
China by this point had severe resource shortages iirc, to the point that they were desperate enough to attack Alaska, so that, and the dissent that would arise from this and from 50s style politics remaining in place for decades, should definitely be represented.
Sure, I'm just saying this is the calm before the storm in the sense that the actual war hasn't started yet. From what I've read, the PRC is already getting oil from the US through trade, the war is about needing more of it. Hence why they've already taken Siberia in my headcanon.
Also, I'm not sure the 50s model creates more dissent necessarily than that of any other decade. Don't forget that Tiananmen happened under Deng, and that the Cultural Revolution was as much about expressing support for parts of the regime as it was about rejecting it. That's exactly my point; that the loyalist-dissenter dichotomy is not as clean as it's often framed, specifically because civil and state society are almost identical (for good and for ill).
I have to say this is a very foreign view to me. I'm not even sure I can quite wrap my head around what exactly you mean/are implying.
I'm going to let my western view betray me and risk saying some orientalist shit but, are you saying that the way China operates is that society is all consumed by the Party-State? And that unlike in the USA, dissent is funneled through systemic functions and not outcast outside of the system like they are in the USA? I consider myself an anarchist, a big part of who I am is an analyzer of the systems around me, but surely not everything in China operates together like you're saying without some sort of externality that I'm just not quite grasping here. Or I'm just tired. Though the systems I criticize around me are all American in nature, so Idk if this is another discussion or what exactly it is I'm saying. You're sort of lobbing a grenade into the way I understand how people interact with the state.
I think what I want to say is... Continue? I'm interested in such a view of how society functions, and it would be interesting to get more ground level views of things, and more examples of how the party itself works. If you can use this quest as a sort of "educational lesson for westerners of how China Operates" I would find that even more compelling than just as a quest about preparing for the bombs, though that's not a demand by any means. The language and propaganda barrier I operate through here in the USA doesn't give me the best view of what goes on across the sea and I've always been interested.
I have to say this is a very foreign view to me. I'm not even sure I can quite wrap my head around what exactly you mean/are implying.
I'm going to let my western view betray me and risk saying some orientalist shit but, are you saying that the way China operates is that society is all consumed by the Party-State? And that unlike in the USA, dissent is funneled through systemic functions and not outcast outside of the system like they are in the USA? I consider myself an anarchist, a big part of who I am is an analyzer of the systems around me, but surely not everything in China operates together like you're saying without some sort of externality that I'm just not quite grasping here. Or I'm just tired. Though the systems I criticize around me are all American in nature, so Idk if this is another discussion or what exactly it is I'm saying. You're sort of lobbing a grenade into the way I understand how people interact with the state.
I think what I want to say is... Continue? I'm interested in such a view of how society functions, and it would be interesting to get more ground level views of things, and more examples of how the party itself works. If you can use this quest as a sort of "educational lesson for westerners of how China Operates" I would find that even more compelling than just as a quest about preparing for the bombs, though that's not a demand by any means. The language and propaganda barrier I operate through here in the USA doesn't give me the best view of what goes on across the sea and I've always been interested.
I don't think this is a West/Orient dichotomy so much as it's peculiar to the history of state socialism, and the Mao period specifically. It is all too easy to frame this as totalitarian, were it not that this drastically overestimates the power of the center. I've seen contemporary scholars refer to it as 'totalist' instead, the idea being that there is no neat distinction between state and civil institutions. This cuts both ways, of course; in the present day, when there is actually something resembling a private sphere, it's often referred to as 'consultative authoritarianism'. In practice, it just means that the government won't tolerate outright dissent, but will take popular complaints seriously, if only because that's in its own interest. Hell, anarchists like you (and me!) could say that liberal democracy is just a looser form of that same model. Even a liberal civil society is still influenced by the forces which manufacture consent.
Anyway, to bring it back to this quest (which I suppose is partly educational, now that you mention it), there are several ways to communicate these systems. One obvious one, yet unrevealed, is that the Red Guards have been made into a national gendarmerie. A perfect example of institutionalizing dissent. Another would be the successive mass campaigns which I'd want to bring into the narrative, and which will probably have a major impact on gameplay as well. Finally, there's the simple fact that you'll want to manage the food and energy crises before they do produce 'external' forms of resistance. It would be useful to mention here that your character's own Aspiration is to 'realize the promise of the Angang Constitution'. This might as well represent the main difference with Eve: you're trying to bend the system from the inside instead of breaking it from the outside. This reeks of impotent reformism, and it would be, were it not for the fact that the 'inside' here is deliberately bigger than it is in Eve's oligarchy.
Hope this makes a bit more sens now, but I admit it's a confounding subject.
On a related note, I've been playing Fallout 76 over the past week, and I can definitely tell why y'all think the US was on the brink of collapse. That said, there are still nuanced distinctions between, let's say, Russia in January 1917, Russia in July 1917, and Russia in January 1918. Not sure where Fallout America falls on that spectrum, but the one thing they have going for themselves is that they actually won on the Alaskan front. The Chinese front is probably another story, of course, let alone the burgeoning domestic insurgencies. My larger point is that a sufficiently speculative headcanon such as my own can pretend that the situation was at least as dire in China.
Anyway, I'll be posting an overview of projects and partnerships in a few days or so, so y'all get a sense of the selection and style of the actions. Then, I just need to add in the actual numbers and ruleset (the latter of which is already worked out for the most part), and the game can finally get started. In a new thread, naturally.
On a related note, I've been playing Fallout 76 over the past week, and I can definitely tell why y'all think the US was on the brink of collapse. That said, there are still nuanced distinctions between, let's say, Russia in January 1917, Russia in July 1917, and Russia in January 1918. Not sure where Fallout America falls on that spectrum, but the one thing they have going for themselves is that they actually won on the Alaskan front. The Chinese front is probably another story, of course, let alone the burgeoning domestic insurgencies. My larger point is that a sufficiently speculative headcanon such as my own can pretend that the situation was at least as dire in China.
The way I interpret the lore is that by the end both sides are essentially being carried by momentum and wartime inertia more then anything else. The US was technically winning in a purely "hoi4 victory points control" sense but even if instead of launching nukes that day both sides signed a peace treaty, collapse was all but assured.
It is all too easy to frame this as totalitarian, were it not that this drastically overestimates the power of the center. I've seen contemporary scholars refer to it as 'totalist' instead, the idea being that there is no neat distinction between state and civil institutions.
After some coffee, doing work, and coming back to re-read along with this snippet, I understand a lot better and this would be super interesting to play imo. I hope you go forward with such an idea!
To be fair I don't expect you to have played the ancient ones, but Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 give a bunch of insights into pre-war USA life. The brotherhood of steel for example was formed out of a us army faction that rebelled before the bombs dropped.
There's more like that, but that's the biggest example. Fallout 4 is also surprisingly good at capturing this with environmental storytelling of certain locations such as the military controlling the food supply to Boston through rationing, riots happening that cause the police to rely more and more on robots to handle, fallout new Vegas makes it a point that mr house owned las Vegas, and im pretty surr they meant that literally.
It's been all over the lore since day one that the USA was on its last ropes of not having those ropes rapidly disintegrate before the eyes of those in power. The military is essentially the last institute of the USA standing and that's in spite of what is going on back home through sheer force of inertia and infrastructure built to scrap the rest of society to fuel it.
Actually I'm not sure if this is the thread to rant about fallout lore. Though idk this would probably give you a better idea on how to handle the USA of your quest so I guess it's relevant?
To be fair I don't expect you to have played the ancient ones, but Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 give a bunch of insights into pre-war USA life. The brotherhood of steel for example was formed out of a us army faction that rebelled before the bombs dropped.
Well, I have been meaning to play the classic ones for the longest time, since I enjoy New Vegas so much. I have an install of 2 ready to go, but have barely made it past Arroyo. That said, I am broadly aware of its lore, and concur with the way it's been communicated here. My only quibble would be with the supposition that the bombs were dropped by the Enclave themselves in order to preempt the collapse of the country, since I think it's more poetic if we never find out who started it. Might even be funnier if the Enclave was ready to drop the bombs on Tuesday, and then the Chinese went ahead and dropped them on Monday.
My only quibble would be with the supposition that the bombs were dropped by the Enclave themselves in order to preempt the collapse of the country, since I think it's more poetic if we never find out who started it.
Oh yes don't worry that's a whole compelling part of the lore to leave it unsolved. You having your opinion that china dropped the bombs first is equally compelling as the enclave did it. And yes it would be extremely enjoyable if they beat each other to the punch by mere minutes/hours/days.
