They don't have a choice.
We literally just destroyed everyone who could object, and could summarily slaughter them all if we wanted.
Civilization Quest
- Thread starter Bobalo18
- Start date
- Original
We literally just destroyed everyone who could object, and could summarily slaughter them all if we wanted.
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
Yeah I changed it. I don't know why, but I thought the option was more reconnaissance and altering of public opinion than just making everyone who complains shut up. Later, maybe we can get an option to have the soldiers loyal to us talk about how great we are and listen for anyone who disagrees, because that was what I imagined when I read the option.
Also, with my vote, I'm trying to set up a system similar, but a bit more tolerant, to the Roman citizenship.
I'm sorry but that is a purely ignorant statement. For one, it would require we force extra children onto families when it is already difficult just to feed your own family. For two, even if we managed to do so, the families in question would resent it and the children themselves, defeating the whole purpose of it. Thirdly, we killed their trained soldiers, not every man. They, unlike us, were relatively stable and didn't have to field every able-bodied man in the fight. They will likely have a great deal of male children just on the cusp of entering adulthood, or who will enter it in a few years. With their larger population, the longer it takes us to assimilate them, the more likely they will rebel, and the more likely that rebellion will be to succeed.
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- Location
- California, USA
Wait... Isn't being a African slave a temporary thing? You serve your time as a slave and then become a full member of the tribe/clan that enslaved you. A bit different from Western slavery.
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notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
That's literally what my vote is. And yes, by the time of the European slave trade, that's how it works. This is still 300 CE though, so the tradition probably isn't established yet.
We'll we had a very devastating bloody war, so the forces at play may not allow most peoples better nature to show if we choose the enslave option even if indentured servitude was more of the norm.
Notmi's vote gets us tha tin a more formalized and faster way, without any unspoken depravites or reprisals our people may want to repay. Plus it takes some of the negatives off of enslaving a large population and hopefully gets us some from that polygamy action if their starting to get accepted as citizens faster.
- Location
- Pilipinas
[X] Help soldiers: Some of your soldiers have started to express strange behavior after the battle with the Berbers. Behavior such as getting into a battle position when they see a spear or bow, and believing that they are at battles with the Berbers whenever they see a normal Berber civilian. It's very strange, and you don't know how to fix it. Some of the elders suggest that the spirits of the Berbers killed have invaded their bodies and that they should be exorcised, but you can't help but wonder if that is true. Nonetheless, although you can't do much to help them, you can at least study them and see what all of the strange soldiers have in common.
[X] Stay put: Your losses were huge, and your people are tired. It would be morally wrong as well as foolish to fight right now. Which is not to say that if you were attacked you would not defend yourself. You just wouldn't attack anyone else right now
[X] Talk of integration: Soldiers from different tribes have fought together, and they are closer because of it. Now that you are the talk of the town with other tribes, perhaps it would not be a bad idea to try your luck at unification with some of them? With you as the leader of course.
[X] Your own writing: When you told the elders about the writing the Berbers had, they were aghast. They refused to have anything to do with the writing, and only after some prodding, did they realize what a good idea it was. However, they want to create the tribe's own writing system, not copy off of the Berbers. It would take longer though.
[X] Establish a Shadow group: Some of the people who did so well in hiding your preparations these past two years have suggested that you make a cabal of "shadows" that would assist in your rule. It would take some time to train its members though.
[X] Marriage: In order to reinforce your leadership, it would be advisable to marry one of your councilman's daughters. That way, you would be looked at as a powerful and influential individual. Which you are, but an official proclamation of it wouldn't hurt.
[X] Stay put: Your losses were huge, and your people are tired. It would be morally wrong as well as foolish to fight right now. Which is not to say that if you were attacked you would not defend yourself. You just wouldn't attack anyone else right now
[X] Talk of integration: Soldiers from different tribes have fought together, and they are closer because of it. Now that you are the talk of the town with other tribes, perhaps it would not be a bad idea to try your luck at unification with some of them? With you as the leader of course.
[X] Your own writing: When you told the elders about the writing the Berbers had, they were aghast. They refused to have anything to do with the writing, and only after some prodding, did they realize what a good idea it was. However, they want to create the tribe's own writing system, not copy off of the Berbers. It would take longer though.
[X] Establish a Shadow group: Some of the people who did so well in hiding your preparations these past two years have suggested that you make a cabal of "shadows" that would assist in your rule. It would take some time to train its members though.
[X] Marriage: In order to reinforce your leadership, it would be advisable to marry one of your councilman's daughters. That way, you would be looked at as a powerful and influential individual. Which you are, but an official proclamation of it wouldn't hurt.
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
So, my knowledge of the ancient Roman Empire is pretty sketchy, but from a quick wiki trawl, I think we could adopt a version of their system. Obviously it wouldn't be right away, but if we plan on conquering more, like I think we do, it is something to think on.
There would be three classes. Citizens, Freed-men, and slaves.
Citizens are exactly what it sounds like, those who are full citizens of the empire, and are afforded their full rights.
Freed-men are those who used to be slaves, but were freed through one of the mechanics listed below.They would have many of the same rights and opportunities as Citizens, but would be held back from positions of high authority.
Slaves, are, once again, pretty self evident. However, I'd like to see if we can set a precedent against slaves as personal property, and firmly for them being the property of the State. This would greatly limit the chances for the system to be used abusively.
Now, in terms of class mobility.
Slaves would be made up of the conquered, or those who committed a crime beyond a simple fine, but not worthy of execution. There would be a hard limit on the number of years a person could be a slave, and a slave can be freed either by serving their full sentence, or performing in some extraordinary way so as to earn their freedom.
All freed slaves rise to the class of Freed-men. Any child of a slave is born into the Freed-men class. Freed-men can rise to the status of Citizen by serving a certain amount of time in the military, buying it, or performing some deed worthy of advancement. Any child born to a Freed-men will be a freed-men, excepting a family line who has been of the freed-men class for three generations. In that case, the children are born Citizens.
All children of Citizens are born Citizens. A Citizen can be lowered to the Freed-men class for committing a transgression lesser than that needed to become a slave, but beyond what can be payed with a mere fine, such as showing cowardice on the battlefield. Citizens are subject to the same laws as all others, and can be lowered to the class of slave by committing a grievous crime.
When a Child's parents are from two classes, the child will be afforded the right of the higher class at birth.
These are just my first thoughts, if anyone has any criticisms or feedback, I'd like to hear it.
There would be three classes. Citizens, Freed-men, and slaves.
Citizens are exactly what it sounds like, those who are full citizens of the empire, and are afforded their full rights.
Freed-men are those who used to be slaves, but were freed through one of the mechanics listed below.They would have many of the same rights and opportunities as Citizens, but would be held back from positions of high authority.
Slaves, are, once again, pretty self evident. However, I'd like to see if we can set a precedent against slaves as personal property, and firmly for them being the property of the State. This would greatly limit the chances for the system to be used abusively.
Now, in terms of class mobility.
Slaves would be made up of the conquered, or those who committed a crime beyond a simple fine, but not worthy of execution. There would be a hard limit on the number of years a person could be a slave, and a slave can be freed either by serving their full sentence, or performing in some extraordinary way so as to earn their freedom.
All freed slaves rise to the class of Freed-men. Any child of a slave is born into the Freed-men class. Freed-men can rise to the status of Citizen by serving a certain amount of time in the military, buying it, or performing some deed worthy of advancement. Any child born to a Freed-men will be a freed-men, excepting a family line who has been of the freed-men class for three generations. In that case, the children are born Citizens.
All children of Citizens are born Citizens. A Citizen can be lowered to the Freed-men class for committing a transgression lesser than that needed to become a slave, but beyond what can be payed with a mere fine, such as showing cowardice on the battlefield. Citizens are subject to the same laws as all others, and can be lowered to the class of slave by committing a grievous crime.
When a Child's parents are from two classes, the child will be afforded the right of the higher class at birth.
These are just my first thoughts, if anyone has any criticisms or feedback, I'd like to hear it.
AZATHOTHoth
༼ つ ☀️_☀️ ༽つ
I like this system
Current Vote Count:
Military: Ensure Loyalty 2, Help soldiers 6
Warfare: Stay put 8
Diplomacy: Talk of Integration 4, Marry into Kante tribe 1, Send gifts 3
Domestic: Enslave the Berbers 3, Special option 4, Kill the Berbers 1
Research: Horse riding 1, Your own writing 2, Symbols on the Rocks 5
Intrigue: Establish a shadow group 8
Other: Marriage 4, Establish polygamy 3, Adoption 1
Military: Ensure Loyalty 2, Help soldiers 6
Warfare: Stay put 8
Diplomacy: Talk of Integration 4, Marry into Kante tribe 1, Send gifts 3
Domestic: Enslave the Berbers 3, Special option 4, Kill the Berbers 1
Research: Horse riding 1, Your own writing 2, Symbols on the Rocks 5
Intrigue: Establish a shadow group 8
Other: Marriage 4, Establish polygamy 3, Adoption 1
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
I'm sure it won't hurt. It will also make sure none of the clans decide they would be better off on their own. I don't want to push for a full alliance until we are back near full strength.
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Well, hopefully we can convince the others before voting is closed.
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
Part of my dislike for choosing that option this turn is that I think it may cause a major split in our alliance, and result in two or more strong factions that we will have to deal with.
Also, the likes are nice, but can I get some actual feedback on my class system idea? I obviously agree with everything I put down, but I wrote it up in like five minutes after about a minute of research. I'd like to hear criticisms that can improve it and make it more viable.
Only problem with your plan is that the Soninke were already on course for the conservative, class stratified, and strict caste-like society this wiki makes them out to be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soninke_people
Its one of the reasons I'm glad were slowly integrating the Berbers so that some of those barriers break down and the people are upset with it.
GM would our people warm up to the idea of slow integration more if they the Berber males had to pass rites of initiation and learning the Soninke language as well?
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
Yeah, we are definitely going to have to move away from that. Societies with static classes never end well. At least it should be easier to shape our culture here than in real life, because we can ensure that each ruler continues it.
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Here's the class strucutre and terms Wiki uses...
Hooru( Free-men)
1. Tunkalemu (Princes)
Only they can become king.
2. Mangu (Advisors)
They advise the princes. They'd be the current councilors, mediators, confidantsmaybe less powerful cheifs around now. They descend from the Kuraleme, a warrior class the lead at the heads of armies during war in war and what we'll probably get once we organize our forces.
3. Kuraleme (Generals)
The heads of armies we'd be making once we organize our forces. I'm guessing the most senior and powerful and loyal of them will form the backbone of the Mangu.
4. Modinu (Preists)
They dispense justice, perform prayers, teach religion and are responsible for the general education of the populace. Might have been among the first imams of modern day southern Mauritania and SSA.
Naxamala (Dependents)
1. Tago (Blacksmiths)
Highest position of the Naxamala. Responsible for weapons, work tools, and jewelry. Respected for their knowledge of iron.
2. Sakko ( Woodsman)
Responsible for forestry. Are said to be respected for their knowledge of wood working. Also mentions they have a friendship and mastery over devils. Wonder what that means...
3. Jaroo (Praise-Singers)
They are the most famous of the naxamala class. They act as griots for the important families of the Soninke, are in charge of singing, speaking, oration and animation. they are also authorized to say anything they want, and I think that might include political criticism wihout retribution.
4. Garanko (Cobblers)
They made shoes, saddles, and sword sheaths. Probably all the other manfacturing jobs that didn't impede on the other classes territory.
Komo(Slaves)
Just as the name in implies. Masters were supposed to take care of them but that wasn't always the case. They usually outnumbered the free-men in the past and the major labor force. the prosperity of the Soninke was due to their dominance in farming.
Hope this helps.
1. Tunkalemu (Princes)
Only they can become king.
2. Mangu (Advisors)
They advise the princes. They'd be the current councilors, mediators, confidantsmaybe less powerful cheifs around now. They descend from the Kuraleme, a warrior class the lead at the heads of armies during war in war and what we'll probably get once we organize our forces.
3. Kuraleme (Generals)
The heads of armies we'd be making once we organize our forces. I'm guessing the most senior and powerful and loyal of them will form the backbone of the Mangu.
4. Modinu (Preists)
They dispense justice, perform prayers, teach religion and are responsible for the general education of the populace. Might have been among the first imams of modern day southern Mauritania and SSA.
Naxamala (Dependents)
1. Tago (Blacksmiths)
Highest position of the Naxamala. Responsible for weapons, work tools, and jewelry. Respected for their knowledge of iron.
2. Sakko ( Woodsman)
Responsible for forestry. Are said to be respected for their knowledge of wood working. Also mentions they have a friendship and mastery over devils. Wonder what that means...
3. Jaroo (Praise-Singers)
They are the most famous of the naxamala class. They act as griots for the important families of the Soninke, are in charge of singing, speaking, oration and animation. they are also authorized to say anything they want, and I think that might include political criticism wihout retribution.
4. Garanko (Cobblers)
They made shoes, saddles, and sword sheaths. Probably all the other manfacturing jobs that didn't impede on the other classes territory.
Komo(Slaves)
Just as the name in implies. Masters were supposed to take care of them but that wasn't always the case. They usually outnumbered the free-men in the past and the major labor force. the prosperity of the Soninke was due to their dominance in farming.
Hope this helps.
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
Seems like we can slide the Hooru in as citizens pretty easily, though I'm not sure about how much power we want to afford to the priests. The Tunkalemu will likely be established by the most wealthy and influential people as we grow, and we can probably just let it sort itself out.
The Naxamala will likely make up the Freed-men class, though I'd like to establish the idea of merchant families and professional military to fill it out a bit more.
I kind of hope to abolish the Komo here, and replace it with State owned slaves. The Komo class is too easy to abuse, especially if we use my idea to turn criminals into slaves. Giving the harmed party the criminal as a slave is a terrible idea.
The biggest improvement, and complaint, of this system is likely going to be the social mobility. I think we are likely to be opposed by the elders, but if we pitch it right, we can increase our rapport with the working and warrior class by allowing them the chance to see their children ascend to the level above them.
The Naxamala will likely make up the Freed-men class, though I'd like to establish the idea of merchant families and professional military to fill it out a bit more.
I kind of hope to abolish the Komo here, and replace it with State owned slaves. The Komo class is too easy to abuse, especially if we use my idea to turn criminals into slaves. Giving the harmed party the criminal as a slave is a terrible idea.
The biggest improvement, and complaint, of this system is likely going to be the social mobility. I think we are likely to be opposed by the elders, but if we pitch it right, we can increase our rapport with the working and warrior class by allowing them the chance to see their children ascend to the level above them.
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In the long term yes. However, the elders would consider it a great insult to suggest that the Berbers have the same chance of becoming men as members of the tribe.
What about just learning the language and increasing the time of service required to be free? Would the elders and the people be more agreeable to that?
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
I'm sure they will learn the language anyway, simply by immersion. Increasing the service time is fine, as long as we don't go too far. No matter what we do, the elders will not like it, because it is against tradition. Maybe we can alleviate this a bit by allowing the elders some control over how the slaves are used, i.e. what projects to work on and such. Maybe make comparisons between the Berber's current state and our's when we were taken in by our clan.
As an aside, making the Berbers take the rite now will not go over well, but in five or ten years, when they are more integrated and we hopefully have a bit more goodwill, it would be a good idea. It would set the precedent of allowing conquered peoples to gain full rights while still establishing our culture as the dominant one.
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I'm cool with having them decide how the Berbers labor is applied within that time frame. Hopefully GM takes this all into account when the update comes.
EDIT: Gonna put up a society class stucture with the changes we discussed in a bit...
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Goleh Sylla, An overview of class and social stratification in the early Wagadou union, (University of Oulata, 1692)
Hooru( Free-men)-Citizens
* These classes are much more dominated and nearly monopolized but the great war changed many minds...
* These classes are much more dominated and nearly monopolized but the great war changed many minds...
1. Tunkalemu (Princes)
Only they can become king. A king can formerly adopt a prince that is not his son as well as pass it on to his own child, and occurred much more frequently in kingdom and empire as time passed years. The selection process for a king as well as the rule of a king was not at all the sole rule of a king, but care was taken to make the display of power seem so. A king made sure to take the advice and mood of other princes and the public very seriously into account in ruling and succession.
- The elders, the patriarchal heads of prince families, have the most powerful voices in the creation of law.
2. Mangu (Advisors)
They advise the princes and prince families. They'd be the current councilors, mediators, confidants and those who command judicial duties maybe less powerful chiefs and extended families of princes or less powerful princes around now. They descend from the Kuraleme, a warrior class the lead at the heads of armies during war in war and what we'll probably get once we organize our forces.
3. Kuraleme (Generals)
The heads of armies made once king Cissa organized his forces. Care for their soldiers needs and responsibility for enforcing law and order was their job. The most senior and powerful and loyal of them will form the backbone of the Mangu after retiring from being generals.
4. Modinu (Preists)
They perform prayers, rituals, ceremonies, teach religion and are responsible for the general education of the populace. Might have been among the first imams of modern day southern Mauritania and SSA.
Naxamala Hooru(Dependents Free-men)
* These jobs are dominated but not monopolized said classes
1. Tago (Blacksmiths)
Highest position of the Naxamala. Responsible for weapons, work tools, and jewelry. Respected for their knowledge of iron.
2. Sakko ( Woodsman)
Responsible for forestry and plantations. Are said to be respected for their knowledge of wood working. They have a friendship and mastery over devils.
3. Jaroo (Praise-Singers)
They are the most famous of the naxamala class. They act as griots for the important families of the Soninke, are in charge of singing, speaking, oration and animation. they are also authorized to say anything they want, and that might include political criticism without retribution. Many also enjoy the freedom of being assistant scribes for the priest class.
4. Garanko (Cobbler)
They made shoes, saddles, and sword sheaths and all the other manufacturing jobs that don't impinge on the other's territory. The merchant class and military soldiers make up the bulk here. They are also those who help assist the other classes.
-Those who make up the dependent freed-men class can move into the Citizens class by adoption, or being a Naxamalu hooru for 3 generations, an official marriage to a citizen family, and buying their way into citizenship (very expensive).
Wagadou Komo(Slaves of Wagadou)
Just as the name in implies. Hooru & Tunkalemu supposed to take care of and delegate duties to these temporary state owned slaves. They usually outnumber the free-men in the past and make up the major labor force as either the conquered or naxamale hooru or hooru who commit heinous crimes (like desertion, a sign of cowardice). The prosperity of the Soninke was due to their dominance in farming.
Their terms of State slavery are limited if their complete their services with good time or perform extraordinary work. Any offenses they commit results in extended sentences, but must be thoroughly documented with proof. Abuses against them were monitored by the kings shadow's to cooperate a slaves story in case their livelihood, possible freedom and safety was in peril. After their terms of services were up, they usually integrated into the naxamale hooru within a few years with some prodding and recommendation from the kings shadows.
All freed slaves rise to the class of dependent Freed-men. Any child of a slave is born into the dependent Freed-men class. Freed-men can rise to the status of Citizen by serving a certain amount of time in the military, buying it, or performing some deed worthy of advancement. Any child born to dependent Freed-men will not be considered a Wagadou Komo.
Social life of Soninke, especially among the Cissa
-Marriage between different classes was normally not allowed in the early years of Wagadou's kingdom, but after the great war, the dearth of males, a polygamous sex culture soon arose whether officially approved or not. For some, marriage across class lines was loosened and class lines blurred or fabricated to allow for women to have partners and make for the lack of men to support their daughters. The upper classes enjoyed this privilege especially.
-There was also sharp increase in adultery not just among the Soninke, but the Berbers who had been allowed to integrate, and especially Soninke men and the substantial number of Berber women that were then occupied by the Soninke. These marriage would soon produce an immense and loyal nucleus for the emerging kingdom.
Thoughts?
Only they can become king. A king can formerly adopt a prince that is not his son as well as pass it on to his own child, and occurred much more frequently in kingdom and empire as time passed years. The selection process for a king as well as the rule of a king was not at all the sole rule of a king, but care was taken to make the display of power seem so. A king made sure to take the advice and mood of other princes and the public very seriously into account in ruling and succession.
- The elders, the patriarchal heads of prince families, have the most powerful voices in the creation of law.
2. Mangu (Advisors)
They advise the princes and prince families. They'd be the current councilors, mediators, confidants and those who command judicial duties maybe less powerful chiefs and extended families of princes or less powerful princes around now. They descend from the Kuraleme, a warrior class the lead at the heads of armies during war in war and what we'll probably get once we organize our forces.
3. Kuraleme (Generals)
The heads of armies made once king Cissa organized his forces. Care for their soldiers needs and responsibility for enforcing law and order was their job. The most senior and powerful and loyal of them will form the backbone of the Mangu after retiring from being generals.
4. Modinu (Preists)
They perform prayers, rituals, ceremonies, teach religion and are responsible for the general education of the populace. Might have been among the first imams of modern day southern Mauritania and SSA.
Naxamala Hooru(Dependents Free-men)
* These jobs are dominated but not monopolized said classes
1. Tago (Blacksmiths)
Highest position of the Naxamala. Responsible for weapons, work tools, and jewelry. Respected for their knowledge of iron.
2. Sakko ( Woodsman)
Responsible for forestry and plantations. Are said to be respected for their knowledge of wood working. They have a friendship and mastery over devils.
3. Jaroo (Praise-Singers)
They are the most famous of the naxamala class. They act as griots for the important families of the Soninke, are in charge of singing, speaking, oration and animation. they are also authorized to say anything they want, and that might include political criticism without retribution. Many also enjoy the freedom of being assistant scribes for the priest class.
4. Garanko (Cobbler)
They made shoes, saddles, and sword sheaths and all the other manufacturing jobs that don't impinge on the other's territory. The merchant class and military soldiers make up the bulk here. They are also those who help assist the other classes.
-Those who make up the dependent freed-men class can move into the Citizens class by adoption, or being a Naxamalu hooru for 3 generations, an official marriage to a citizen family, and buying their way into citizenship (very expensive).
Wagadou Komo(Slaves of Wagadou)
Just as the name in implies. Hooru & Tunkalemu supposed to take care of and delegate duties to these temporary state owned slaves. They usually outnumber the free-men in the past and make up the major labor force as either the conquered or naxamale hooru or hooru who commit heinous crimes (like desertion, a sign of cowardice). The prosperity of the Soninke was due to their dominance in farming.
Their terms of State slavery are limited if their complete their services with good time or perform extraordinary work. Any offenses they commit results in extended sentences, but must be thoroughly documented with proof. Abuses against them were monitored by the kings shadow's to cooperate a slaves story in case their livelihood, possible freedom and safety was in peril. After their terms of services were up, they usually integrated into the naxamale hooru within a few years with some prodding and recommendation from the kings shadows.
All freed slaves rise to the class of dependent Freed-men. Any child of a slave is born into the dependent Freed-men class. Freed-men can rise to the status of Citizen by serving a certain amount of time in the military, buying it, or performing some deed worthy of advancement. Any child born to dependent Freed-men will not be considered a Wagadou Komo.
Social life of Soninke, especially among the Cissa
-Marriage between different classes was normally not allowed in the early years of Wagadou's kingdom, but after the great war, the dearth of males, a polygamous sex culture soon arose whether officially approved or not. For some, marriage across class lines was loosened and class lines blurred or fabricated to allow for women to have partners and make for the lack of men to support their daughters. The upper classes enjoyed this privilege especially.
-There was also sharp increase in adultery not just among the Soninke, but the Berbers who had been allowed to integrate, and especially Soninke men and the substantial number of Berber women that were then occupied by the Soninke. These marriage would soon produce an immense and loyal nucleus for the emerging kingdom.
Thoughts?
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