They literally all of fucked up multiple times that have led to deaths, and Xander has got called on it the most. But its one of those things that gets glossed over.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel the Series; Ideas, discussion & fanfic recs!
Astrid Fornhoff
Perpetual Depressant
- Location
- 1632 Revello Drive, Sunnydale California
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I started a vast dissertation in response to your points and wants yesterday but deleted it because anything written while tired is unrecognizable slop. Thank you in advance as I address these in order of listing.
Minor things:
1.) I'm going to readapt the movie length premier, less word for word as I justify the existence of my additions to the cast. I agree that Wil and Xander should mention their bestest friend since they were five just getting off'd, that has affects on people!
2.) I'm writing Wesley on the lower side of thirty but above his teens, putting him at 25. Old enough to be 'an adult' and young enough to still be naive without it hiding malice (because he's malicious, sure, but later, in AtS)
3.) Will do, you'd think that people just up and dying would have more of an affect on people who've known them for years!
4.) I like catching the moments between most of all because it allows my imagination to well, imagine.
Plot points:
1.) We as fandom agree (or disagree) on Faith's backstory because of Go Ask Malice. I'm not sure if I'm going to contradict that majorly or not yet. (I mean, I'm gonna contradict canon pretty directly a lot so we'll see).
2.) I'm gonna have fun with the Initiative. I'd already dropped a few hints that my Sunnydale isn't quite the same as Sunnydale from the series and that'll be a bit more pronounced going forward. Tying the army to Marcie is (imo) more interesting than the FBI showing up (for that proper thriller feel it should've been the agency).
3.) Vaguely school until I figure out something for her to do. Medical school less so, might play with 'got into Oxford' more.
4.) This is something I actually thought about doing to empathize that while it'll be a familiar story it isn't the exact same story but with a wrench or fifty in the works and if it's different, shouldn't it be different?
5.) The Watchers' Council as a whole I plan to be both a bit of a malevolent 'joke' (these people torture teenagers! To death!) whilst simultaneously about as threatening as a chihuahua that doesn't have teeth outside of very specific circumstances. You are correct we know very little about them, which is what makes it fertile ground for both sinister and hopeful plots. Personally I find there are few greater evils than the nebulous greater good, and the horrible things people will do to one another in the name of moral rightness, made worse by the fact the council knows there are monsters in the dark.
Things I'll try to avoid:
1.) I outright angst over mischaracterization, I promise I won't, at least not deliberately.
2.) There are two canonical Halloween episodes, Halloween which I'm adding a character to, but no costume changes for the ones you know, and Fear Itself which my plans for right now are 'I'll cross that bridge when I get to S4'.
3.) Indeed, Buffy doesn't. I'd planned on something like that, though I'm not telling it from her perspective alone (or even primarily as I fear fucking her up most of all so I write her as little as possible...)
3.5) I agree and some of the minor characters (esp. the recurring ones) will be addressed.
Overall this is still an OC forward story and it'll stay that way (adding people to the cast is like a time honored/reviled tradition in the buffyverse fandom) but this gives me a lot to think about without contradicting that and thank you again.
Astrid Fornhoff
Perpetual Depressant
- Location
- 1632 Revello Drive, Sunnydale California
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't particularly remember canon having a hate on for Xander's mistakes any more than Buffy's.
No your right, its not all the time or anything like that. I wouldn't even call it a hate on, its more that his mistakes were more obviously pointed out, to me at least.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Willow is show baking apology cookies and agonizing over her screw ups. Xander makes a goofy grin and then it's never mentioned again.
Feel free to post numbers for "Xander has been called on it the most" because this sounds like bullshit to me.
I'm sorry, but I did misspeak when I said "called on it" as I previously stated. Its more that to me, his mistakes were more pointed out compared to the other characters.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Pointed out by whom?
Not by a character per say, but by the show itself.
Astrid Fornhoff
Perpetual Depressant
- Location
- 1632 Revello Drive, Sunnydale California
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I admit a curiosity as to what you're referring. Nor am I trying to be combative. I cannot recall a time wherein the narrative decided to say "Fuck you, Alexander Harris, specifically, for the shit you do."
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
The show literally never brings up Xander summoning sweets again, even though Buffy came close to dying and other people did die.
Contrast that with willow repeatedly having entire scenes about her feelings of remorse.
Contrast that with willow repeatedly having entire scenes about her feelings of remorse.
Off the top of my head for me, Faith almost killing him, and Giles yelling at Xander for falling asleep when watching Oz while tucking a blanket in around Buffy when she does the same thing the next night, Angel knocking Xander out at night when he was pretending to be soulless.
Like I said, its probably just me reading to much into things.
Astrid Fornhoff
Perpetual Depressant
- Location
- 1632 Revello Drive, Sunnydale California
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Good examples, actually. Thanks.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Only the middle example has to do with Xander's mistakes.
Angel knocking him out is just Angel being a jerk (whether it's just for the role or because he doesn't like Xander is up to interpretation). Faith almost killing him is about Faith's own issues.
Eh I think this is just gonna be one of things we don't agree on, but Xander only went to Faith because he was mistaken and thought they had a connection. Your right though, Faith definitly had her own issues. And as for Angel, yeah thats one of his biggest dick moves in the series.
- Pronouns
- Male
All of that sounds great. With the Initiative thing, I was more talking about having them be visible in the background of things earlier.I started a vast dissertation in response to your points and wants yesterday but deleted it because anything written while tired is unrecognizable slop. Thank you in advance as I address these in order of listing.
Minor things:
1.) I'm going to readapt the movie length premier, less word for word as I justify the existence of my additions to the cast. I agree that Wil and Xander should mention their bestest friend since they were five just getting off'd, that has affects on people!
2.) I'm writing Wesley on the lower side of thirty but above his teens, putting him at 25. Old enough to be 'an adult' and young enough to still be naive without it hiding malice (because he's malicious, sure, but later, in AtS)
3.) Will do, you'd think that people just up and dying would have more of an affect on people who've known them for years!
4.) I like catching the moments between most of all because it allows my imagination to well, imagine.
Plot points:
1.) We as fandom agree (or disagree) on Faith's backstory because of Go Ask Malice. I'm not sure if I'm going to contradict that majorly or not yet. (I mean, I'm gonna contradict canon pretty directly a lot so we'll see).
2.) I'm gonna have fun with the Initiative. I'd already dropped a few hints that my Sunnydale isn't quite the same as Sunnydale from the series and that'll be a bit more pronounced going forward. Tying the army to Marcie is (imo) more interesting than the FBI showing up (for that proper thriller feel it should've been the agency).
3.) Vaguely school until I figure out something for her to do. Medical school less so, might play with 'got into Oxford' more.
4.) This is something I actually thought about doing to empathize that while it'll be a familiar story it isn't the exact same story but with a wrench or fifty in the works and if it's different, shouldn't it be different?
5.) The Watchers' Council as a whole I plan to be both a bit of a malevolent 'joke' (these people torture teenagers! To death!) whilst simultaneously about as threatening as a chihuahua that doesn't have teeth outside of very specific circumstances. You are correct we know very little about them, which is what makes it fertile ground for both sinister and hopeful plots. Personally I find there are few greater evils than the nebulous greater good, and the horrible things people will do to one another in the name of moral rightness, made worse by the fact the council knows there are monsters in the dark.
Things I'll try to avoid:
1.) I outright angst over mischaracterization, I promise I won't, at least not deliberately.
2.) There are two canonical Halloween episodes, Halloween which I'm adding a character to, but no costume changes for the ones you know, and Fear Itself which my plans for right now are 'I'll cross that bridge when I get to S4'.
3.) Indeed, Buffy doesn't. I'd planned on something like that, though I'm not telling it from her perspective alone (or even primarily as I fear fucking her up most of all so I write her as little as possible...)
3.5) I agree and some of the minor characters (esp. the recurring ones) will be addressed.
Overall this is still an OC forward story and it'll stay that way (adding people to the cast is like a time honored/reviled tradition in the buffyverse fandom) but this gives me a lot to think about without contradicting that and thank you again.
The narrative of the episode is 50/50 on showing if he screwed up, though he does get away with just as many screw ups as Willow.
I'm totally willing to get into an objective evaluation of the main characters screw ups that don't get brought up. But I need to know first, is this just a attack/defense on Xander screw ups (because honestly, half of the other main characters do worse things.), or are we going to compare the other main characters?
Are we debating if Xander is the worst, or if xander (and basically everyone in the cast) has screw ups that don't get addressed and just want to talk about Xanders right now?
Because if we're debating who got away with the most? My vote is on Anya. She canonically had a soul while avengeance demon, she did accept the offer twice, she killed a LOT of people. But once she loses her powers the first time, tht was just forgotten by everyone. She has the highest body count of any main character. Beats spike and Angelus.
But if you just want to vent about a couple things you think Xander didn't get called on and come up with some creative angles to do so in a fic, I'm game for that too. Though if you just want to bash, I'll skip that.
I agree, the narrative of the episode usually has him face some form of karmic comeupance.
Xanderr and Mrs French, Xander almost getting killed by the women of sunnydale? Xander losing all his jobs for being unreliable (only lost a couple ccause of slaying). Getting split in 2 and seeing his negative side.
Xander got shunned by Willow for a few days after the love spell. When she cast her memory stuff on tara, they worried about what Willow was going through and tried to help her.
The point was about times the narrative said "screw you Xander". Butt monkey moments basically. Because he does have a lot of those which I beleive are narratively meant to make up for his mistakes.
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Astrid Fornhoff
Perpetual Depressant
- Location
- 1632 Revello Drive, Sunnydale California
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Fair point. I am dense.
- Pronouns
- Male
I picked up my laptop and hit send too soon with the earlier post, so I'm very glad you responded after me so I could properly do so.I started a vast dissertation in response to your points and wants yesterday but deleted it because anything written while tired is unrecognizable slop. Thank you in advance as I address these in order of listing.
1- I personally headcannon that after Jesse died, Xander started saying things Jesse would have to keep his voice alive. He seemed way pervier after the premeire.
2- Since that would put me aout the sme age as Wesley in S5 of Angel, I'm leaning more and more towards that side myself.
3- It's understandable if you handwave it from the crowd with the Sunnydale effect. But Xander/Willow/Cordelia/Oz all know these kids well. Maybe show that Buffy and the gang go to one of the funerals and have them mention they go to all of them.
4- The episodes go through spurts where a bunch happens in a few weeks and months with just a few filler episodes. I love the new filler demons people invent.
1- I feel we all agree she comes from a vaguely biker background. That's really what I meant. But I like the idea she had a home just like Buffy but without friends like the Scoobies/Pike, she did drop out and run away.Plot points:
1.) We as fandom agree (or disagree) on Faith's backstory because of Go Ask Malice. I'm not sure if I'm going to contradict that majorly or not yet. (I mean, I'm gonna contradict canon pretty directly a lot so we'll see).
2.) I'm gonna have fun with the Initiative. I'd already dropped a few hints that my Sunnydale isn't quite the same as Sunnydale from the series and that'll be a bit more pronounced going forward. Tying the army to Marcie is (imo) more interesting than the FBI showing up (for that proper thriller feel it should've been the agency).
3.) Vaguely school until I figure out something for her to do. Medical school less so, might play with 'got into Oxford' more.
4.) This is something I actually thought about doing to empathize that while it'll be a familiar story it isn't the exact same story but with a wrench or fifty in the works and if it's different, shouldn't it be different?
5.) The Watchers' Council as a whole I plan to be both a bit of a malevolent 'joke' (these people torture teenagers! To death!) whilst simultaneously about as threatening as a chihuahua that doesn't have teeth outside of very specific circumstances. You are correct we know very little about them, which is what makes it fertile ground for both sinister and hopeful plots. Personally I find there are few greater evils than the nebulous greater good, and the horrible things people will do to one another in the name of moral rightness, made worse by the fact the council knows there are monsters in the dark.
2- They could have been tracking the Soviet swim coach and scooped up the fishpeople as they escape, smashed the mantis eggs that get left behind, recruit that Caine guy, nab Marcie, have someone doing recruitment at career day. They don't ever hve to be noticed early by the cast.
3- Could even have her go the Watcher recruit route. I just want to see her have more of a plan in life.
4- Cool. Sounds like exactly what I was asking for.
5- I'm just tired of them being stupid or uselessly controlling for no reason.
1-It's canon to have characters lashout at each other. Just make sure it's not always being directed at the same person.
2-Could always skip S2's halloween and do S3. Do something about Samhaim and the original pagan holiday instead of halloween?
3 - That's how I feel about Willow. I just can't quite get her voice right.
3.5-Excellent. seeing little updates at the people they rescue really helps show progression of time.
I've written like 8 SI's. I'm not judging.
Trace Coburn
BattleTech Starfighter Analyst
- Location
- NDBBM, New Zealand
Here's one that just occurred to me:
Halloween 1997 has to be one of the plot devices used in Buffy fics, YAHF being one of THE signature conceits of the fandom and all that, but what if... it wasn't? What if it never happened at all? Something happens to Ethan Rayne before he can cast That Spell (he gets et by a random vamp, Eyghon comes calling early, whatever) and That Infamous Halloween is... a complete non-event? I wonder how credibly people can call at all the Stations of Canon after someone just took a nuke to the switching yards....
Halloween 1997 has to be one of the plot devices used in Buffy fics, YAHF being one of THE signature conceits of the fandom and all that, but what if... it wasn't? What if it never happened at all? Something happens to Ethan Rayne before he can cast That Spell (he gets et by a random vamp, Eyghon comes calling early, whatever) and That Infamous Halloween is... a complete non-event? I wonder how credibly people can call at all the Stations of Canon after someone just took a nuke to the switching yards....
Hard to say, because the only things that I really think that Halloween affected happen would be no rocket launcher for the judge, possible no bomb for the mayor, and maybe no student army.
- Pronouns
- Male
have Xander save O'toole's bomb, students still help out just without as much organization (probably a few more casualties), it's the Judge where you need someone else to come up with a plan.
But really, Oz, Cordy, and Giles all have a car, not hard leap of logic to jump to crash into him so the lightning he shoots blows up the car. Also, he's shooting lightning in a mall... Shouldn't that have set the sprinklers off? Though, I feel this is another retcon the show writers would have to do if the redid the whole series knowing what they would add. Spike knows about the Gem of Amara. If he' s looking for a Dru cure, why hasn't any fics had Spike give her that instead of the judge? Sickly but unstoppable Dru would be an interesting threat.
Possibly, but it would depend on if he could figure out how to set the bomb back up.
The gem is believed a myth, and spike only finds after digging for, potential, months. It could be SPike felt he just didn't have the time to search for it.
- Pronouns
- Male
Oh he's not rearming the bomb. That's a Willow/Oz job. I just meant you have a bomb ready to take out the school ready for you a few episodes later. And Honestly, I think that has more impact on Xander's plan than halloween did. He only needed the army memories to get into the base. He could have mentioned making a homemade bomb and Willow would have known what ingredients they need.
Like I mentioned, it falls into the hole of not having the whole series planned out from day 1writing a serialized story. The writers didn't know about the Gem of Amara in S2. But if it was rewritten by the same team afte they watched all 7 seasons, they probably would have had the Master/Darla at least mention the Gem of amara in S1/2, the Master should have been looking. Darla with that ring would have been epic. I see lots of fics alter who gets the ring, but I havent seen any of them give the ring to the S1/2 vamps who are actually a serious threat.
Ture enough about those memories, and WIllow and Oz could definitely build a bomb if they wanted to. Perhaps if one of those Proto Vampires had got the gem, they would have been a far bigger threat.
- Pronouns
- Male
The Gem of Amara really was only important before the Judge was taken out. Once it was proven the group could get creative to take out invulnerability, the ring was wasted as a serious threat. Should have had the Annointed One looking for it and he is the one who gave Spike the idea and Spike gets Dru the ring instead of the Judge. Because honestly, when is the last time the Judge was actually a threat in any fic? just skip him unless you have a creative way of taking him out.
A threat? That is a hard one; possible in a very old fic wherein Xander peggy sues back into his younger body. I think the judge was the final threat in the fic?