Beyond the Rift (WHF/FFXIV)
- Thread starter Maugan Ra
- Start date
- Crossover Mature
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
<Fina>
FFXIV has a long history of "Beast Tribes" only being seen as irredeemably violent and unable to integrate with "civilised" folks too. Hence the moniker "Beast Tribes".
The Warhammer Fantasy world strikes me as no different. There's the folks who have cities - Humans, Dwarves, Elves - and those who do not - Orks, Ogres, Beastmen. The latter are seen as fundamentally violent, yet they have as much of a society and are as much individual people as the former.
I excluded Skaven here - they have cities of course, though they are of course secret and so on. But clearly the greater factor is that Skaven society is inherently violent. Most of that violence is directed inwards, it is an utterly atrocious society to live in. We have zero examples of a Skaven outside of such a society, so we have zero reason to assume that it is inherent to their nature.
I also excluded Lizardmen, who also have cities. Because there the claim is in-universe that they are programmed by the Old Ones to be essentially living automatons. I find it rather uninteresting to give full credence to that claim - there is plenty of room for someone to have a pre-defined role, and still be a person capable of growth (even beyond that role) within that, after all.
Do note that the WoL has plenty of experience with societies she can't trust because they are fundamentally fucked up, and that this does not prevent her from feeling compassion for people in said society (at least our WoL, assuming the same for Maugan's). And that said experience is being taken into dealing with Orks, Beastmen, and otherwise here.
FFXIV has a long history of "Beast Tribes" only being seen as irredeemably violent and unable to integrate with "civilised" folks too. Hence the moniker "Beast Tribes".
The Warhammer Fantasy world strikes me as no different. There's the folks who have cities - Humans, Dwarves, Elves - and those who do not - Orks, Ogres, Beastmen. The latter are seen as fundamentally violent, yet they have as much of a society and are as much individual people as the former.
I excluded Skaven here - they have cities of course, though they are of course secret and so on. But clearly the greater factor is that Skaven society is inherently violent. Most of that violence is directed inwards, it is an utterly atrocious society to live in. We have zero examples of a Skaven outside of such a society, so we have zero reason to assume that it is inherent to their nature.
I also excluded Lizardmen, who also have cities. Because there the claim is in-universe that they are programmed by the Old Ones to be essentially living automatons. I find it rather uninteresting to give full credence to that claim - there is plenty of room for someone to have a pre-defined role, and still be a person capable of growth (even beyond that role) within that, after all.
Do note that the WoL has plenty of experience with societies she can't trust because they are fundamentally fucked up, and that this does not prevent her from feeling compassion for people in said society (at least our WoL, assuming the same for Maugan's). And that said experience is being taken into dealing with Orks, Beastmen, and otherwise here.
- Location
- Germany
I assume that Orks generally have fun being Orks and require no compassion.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
More the only one. Generally, they're always spreading spores, but they do it faster and more reliably while fighting, either themselves or others. They're kind of a nightmare like that.
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SneakyWalrus
Is the Water Free?
I mean, it depends on how you interpret the lore around them?
If you consider them an independent entity, disconnected from other factions, then a lot of that dismissal and hatred of civilization falls under a specific definition of civilization where anything beyond rule of strength and a complete inverse of what the different humanoids hold up, such as kings, rule of law, etc. Most of them claiming arms and armour comes through raiding and taking from the smaller villages wiped out by what few gathered herds there are, or being created by those creatures that are lesser on the hierarchy within the Beastmen herd, like Ungors and mutants taken in by the herd turning their talents towards serving the greater herd. It's like how the majority of how the Beastmen feed themselves can be tied to the efforts of female Beastmen, who act as mass grazers and scavengers, collecting food and gathering resources in service to the larger herd, including finding outcast human-born beastmen children.
That said, if we consider them as part of the wider setting, then them getting a lot more supplies and equipment by way of every other major chaotic group settling deeper into the interior makes much more sense. Lore-wise, mutants and other bands of chaos-touched individuals absolutely do exist and trade with other chaos-aligned factions like the Beastmen. Of course, they're also just as likely to get attacked and raided by the Beastmen herds as the regular human settlements, but the interaction between chaotic groups is likely to be much greater than if we treat every group as individual.
Besides, if the world was normal, Beastmen straight-up wouldn't exist at all. We gotta account for the fact that them existing is a spiteful joke being made to the existence of civilization by way of the Chaos Gods, who just straight up roll the dice and say fuck you on a 1, now go have a horrible nightmare cannibal baby who we will deliberately drive to rape, murder and kill because lol.
I think it is important to recognize the difference between Beast Tribes in an FFXIV context, and the Destructive species that exist within the Warhammer setting. The problem is that, unlike the Beast Tribes, the various destructive species within Warhammer suffer from specific issues based on their physical designs.
To make a comparison, look at the differences between the physical make-up of a Warhammer Ogre in comparison to a FFXIV Amalj'aa. The Amalj'aa have predispositions towards a heavily carnivorous diet, are specifically adapted to thriving in more arid environments such as deserts and plain environments, which means that they thrive in these environments and compete with groups like the Miqo'te Seekers but can actually be moved to comprise and work with those different groups. But if we were to compared them to an Ogre, they don't suffer the literal issues of physiology where their bodies are constantly in a state of hunger. This doesn't mean that ogres can't be very smart, intelligent and capable, but their very existence as an incomplete species due to their unfinished nature as a creation of the Old Ones means that the importance of food within their society is a fundamental that cannot be altered, and it's what plays such a massive role in their existence within Warhammer Fantasy.
Another comparison would be the Orks in the current setting, and their future incarnation within Age of Sigmar. We know, definitively, that the Orruks can actually be enticed to work alongside other species such as humans or duardin, can actually form long form friendships and connections with other groups. But we know that, definitively, that groups like the Orruks return to conflict as the ultimate arbiter of their lives, mostly because they actually need to fight and die in order to breed in the first place, but also because they derive the same levels of enjoyment from fighting as much as humans would living their regular lives.
Hell, even a Skaven could theoretically be made 'good', but you'd need to remove them from their environment and instead place them in one that exists in complete abundance, because their own physiology (specifically the black hunger) means that they are consistently at odds with their own constant cycle of breeding, destroying their environment in ravenous hunger, then being forced into conflict with everything around them in order to simply exist.
Yeah, I fully expect that compassion that appears in the Beast Tribe quests, but a lot of the issues around dealing with these groups in Warhammer is that their literal physiological make-up drives them into that inevitable conflict (Skaven, Greenskins, Ogres), or their existence is deliberately propagated by a directly spiteful sect of gods, without whom they literally would not exist as an actual species (Beastmen, Mutants, assorted Chaotic groups).
It depends on which edition, and whether you want to use 40k lore as well. Old lore had them be marsupials and raise their young in a pouch from which they burst out once their big enough, but this was considered too silly and they were instead changed into basically being a fungal system for Fantasy, Age of Sigmar and 40k.
Basically, Orkz fight and die, release spores upon death which turn into fungal growths, from which grots, squigs, mushroom growths and everything else needed to sustain the newborn 'yoofz' grows, and then they eventually grow up from (funnily enough, on occasion an Ork will pop out of the earth with the mushroom cap still growing out of their head, providing them with an easy first meal), then start going around getting in fights to breed more.
See attached image to explain:
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Ogres feel like a really weird choice for this conversation, for a number of reasons.
Just as a disclaimer, I'm not sure where you're getting "Destructive species" as a term worth capitalising. As far as I'm aware "Destruction" is only an actual faction or metaphysical descriptor in the Age of Sigmar setting, where it covers a variety of groups who worship a literal God of Destruction, Gorkamorka. And even in that setting, there are Ogres (sorry, Ogors) who aren't part of the Destruction factions. There's nothing in WHFB that actually associates the Ogre Kingdoms with Orcs and Goblins and... whatever else you're considering "Destructive species".
My basic confusion, though, stems from the fact that WHFB does include a number of "evil races" - that is to say, species of sapient creatures that are generally presented as inherently cruel, violent, treacherous, or otherwise antagonistic to the reader's presumed values. Much like D&D's "monster races", the goal is provide species that are inherently a threat, fundamentally incapable of co-existence - and which therefore present no moral calculus in combat, which is the focus of the game. A heroic Bretonnian army of questing knights can sally into a camp of Forest Goblins and kill every last one, and the player does not have to pause - the way they might if this were a Human or Dwarf encampment on the borders of that same dukedom - and ask "okay, but what were they doing that warranted all the killing?" or "can I try to offer terms of surrender first?" or "wait, even the kids?"
These groups are Beastmen, Skaven, Orcs, and Goblins (I won't count Trolls because they're functionally bipedal animals, and Daemons are not a species so much as magical phenomena). Each of these groups can be presented in a more complex, sympathetic manner, and all have canonical material which could support such a treatment, if a writer so desires. Someone who doesn't want to wildly depart from canonical material or introduce wholly new conceits will face varying difficulties when creating this framing, but it can certainly be done.
- The lore for Beastmen is oft-contradictory (sometimes deliberately so, sometimes not so much) but it's not hard to assert that they're shaped by their harsh situation as much as or more than their fundamental nature.
- Skaven are trickier, because there aren't any sympathetic examples unless you count pathetic ones, but no-one will argue their society and deity aren't incredibly toxic; if we haven't seen a friendly Skaven, it's easy to assert that "Skaven Clan Society" is why.
- Orcs and Goblins are probably the hardest, despite having a wide spread of examples who are entirely willing to engage in diplomacy, strike alliances, act as mercenaries, or even integrate into other societies, simply because they're such a comedy faction. Uncomplicated hooligan Orcs and slapstick Goblins are funny, and people like them that way, which encourages
Why pick them as an example of an inherently incompatible species?
...also, "an incomplete species" feels like some bizarre racial concept drawn from an off-handed sentence of in-universe speculation in a single army book from over a decade ago, but I'm not going to go digging to validate that gut reaction.
bookwyrm
Doom of Public Libraries
- Location
- Wichita, Kansas
I mean even in warhammer fantasy only explicit canon- you still have the relatively free employment of Ogre Maneaters and Hobgobla Wolfriders as mercenaries for various human states, and even a step further in a proper like foreign legion of Ogre State Troops and a whole immigrant community in Ostland, integration not being like actually physically impossible and in fact being fairly straightforward thanks to living right next to a daily buffet of direwolves and manticores in the Forest of Shadows and thanks to imperial Halfling cooking.
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pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Incomplete species, in context, means that they're an engineered lifeform that got deployed en masse before debugging was complete.
The Old Ones ran out of time while engineering anti-Chaos weapon-races, you see.
But yes, Ogres are basically the worst example because the elements that take them from a logistical problem that the HRE-equivalent Empire can manage to a force of destruction are cultural. Fucking Great Maw worship.
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On an unrelated note I am very much looking forward to seeing how the various authorities react to the Scions going "screw the rules we're saving as many people as we can" and backing that up with enough strength to clown on any attempt the authorities make to stop them.
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On the Warhammer side Beastmen ... they're probably tempered by FFXIV logic. I don't think the mass produced tempering countermeasures are all online yet but they should be soon enough.
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- Location
- florida
Sounds like an easy way to take over actually. Or at least earn status and approval.
If anything I think the warrior of light would find that familiar.
Depressing. But familiar.
Even the beast tribes you help out still hold to their faith. Corrupt, insane, malevolent primals or not.
They even recognize tempering as a bad thing.
If it's after end walkers they should be.
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
Easy fix, simple simple simple. All you need is some skull accessories and to communicate solely by emphatic charades and then Chaos Warrior? Blimey guv'nah, that's no Chaos Warrior, that's one of them Raven Knight* Templars of Morr, odd lot but handy to have around when those bloody Strigany start rummaging round in the graveyard, makes me wonder what we even have Roadwardens for, I tell you...
*or a knight of the Black Rose, or a knight of the Scythe, there's like thirty of these riding ominously around, the Cult of Morr found a good aesthetic and they are sticking with it
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Eh, they would probably do better since they know what Chaos Armor looks like. The ones that get fearful are these peasants who don't know the difference between armor sets.
Heck the Black Guard of Morr also wear full black armor.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Speaking of the possible "beast tribes" I'd note that apart from Skavens who are just the literal worst, they all have exceptions that prove they aren't just murder monsters by nature (and Skavens don't just by virtue of their culture bein all encompassing and the worstest).
First off, all of them have a culture, even if what we see is focused on war. That means they aren't just savage beasts good only for killing.
Orcs (orks is a 40kism, like much of the conversation it feels) have mercenaries that, while they still do war, show that they can be reasoned with.
Goblins have the khanate which is very bad news for people around them, but well, you don't have an empire if you aren't people.
Beastmen have the secret Shallyan village, which proves that their agression is nurture and not nature. (more anecdotical there's the Gotrek and Felix story with a girl abused by nobles running to the forest and being pushed to chaos warrior-hood by beastmen. If they were just what the empire says, she would have uh... had a bad time instead)
Norscans are just trying to survive tbh and being in norway hell means having to do pacts with demons to be able to not getting eaten by the 18 headed spider minotaur of torment just outside your village.
All that to say that if you can tolerate the existence of Lalafels, all of them clear that bar as well.
First off, all of them have a culture, even if what we see is focused on war. That means they aren't just savage beasts good only for killing.
Orcs (orks is a 40kism, like much of the conversation it feels) have mercenaries that, while they still do war, show that they can be reasoned with.
Goblins have the khanate which is very bad news for people around them, but well, you don't have an empire if you aren't people.
Beastmen have the secret Shallyan village, which proves that their agression is nurture and not nature. (more anecdotical there's the Gotrek and Felix story with a girl abused by nobles running to the forest and being pushed to chaos warrior-hood by beastmen. If they were just what the empire says, she would have uh... had a bad time instead)
Norscans are just trying to survive tbh and being in norway hell means having to do pacts with demons to be able to not getting eaten by the 18 headed spider minotaur of torment just outside your village.
All that to say that if you can tolerate the existence of Lalafels, all of them clear that bar as well.
- Location
- florida
Exploring how people and creatures act outside of expected stereotypes is fun. And it is interesting.
It can upset people who expect entire species or cultures to act a certain way.
Or if it's done with carelessness or disrespect. But if Ra wants to explore what is up with beastmen and orcs I have confidence they will do it well. And that it will be fun to read.
Yeah but they'd still view the FFXIV heroes with constant suspicion and these are the same guys who tried to kill Archaon for being prophesied as the Everchosen despite his devotion in their ranks at the time.
MiskWisk
Hoot
- Location
- Somewhere devoid of wit
- Pronouns
- He
Long history is stretching it. It's also not the reason for the term. Beast Tribes is an Eorzean exclusive term, propagated by Ul'dah after it cut ties with its Amal'Jaa allies in the hopes of avoiding Garlean aggression. The term got picked up by Gridania, who's interactions with the Ixal were bad because the Ixal keep trying to harvest the Black Shroud and piss off the Elementals, and Limsa Lominsa who have bad relations with the Sahagin (we don't know what set that off, the most I've found is mentions of Sahagin pirates but considering Limsa were pirates at the same time... *shrugs*) and the Kobolds who they notably did have a treaty with which the Lominsans then broke. Ishgard use it to but they don't really have interactions with any non-human groups until after the Seventh Umbral Calamity, and were notably of the opinion regarding the Ixal of, "we've more important things to do."
Moogles meanwhile are a Beast Tribe but get along great with people; you've got the Qiqirn who have a somewhat mixed reception; there's the Ananta who either keep to themselves or work comfortably with other races, and finally the Mamool Ja who were brought over as mercenaries.
Oh, and the Gigants. But the FFXIV Gigants have such half-baked lore most people forget they're even a tribe (if anyone's curious, Gigants are split into three castes, Gigas (ruling caste), Giants (slave caste), and Hecatoncheirs (also slaves). They also worship the Crystal Tower in some way and seem to be in a civil war).
Outside of Eorzea the term is barely used if at all, with people taking an attitude of treating them respectfully so long as their cultures don't bring them into conflict.
Bar the Namazu anyway. The only thing people agree on regarding them is they look delicious.
I like to imagine not even Tzeentch was happy with that. Archaon's fall is something which is a litany of stupidity from every side involved. I'd give good odds birdbrain had a bunch of other plans in the works that it would've enjoyed much more.
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The Witch Hunters view everyone with suspicion. The real question is which kinda flavor they will get.
At best, it would be Saltzpyre since he worked in a group of misfits: a Battle Mage, an Imperial soldier, a Wood Elf and a Dwarf.
For others, they're gonna be a nasty bunch to the WoL who would assume they are the bad guys oppressing their own people for kicks.
Around 90% of the time the Witch Hunters are correct about the dangers of un-trained magic users.
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
Reminder for Fantasy the term is Orc not Ork with their reproduction being a lot more unknown and mysterious compared to Orks. Like sure there's not female Orcs are far as people can tell and they don't do the rape part of rape and pillage but it's not exactly explicit that they come from spores and reproduce via violence like Orks do, at least if I recall correctly. It's a common head canon for good reason but even then Orcs are more alien invasive species than the rogue bioweapon of 40k's Orks.
It's still true that majority of Orcs and Goblins are completely unreasonable who no true peace can be had with. You can hire some to be mercenaries but there's always the risk of them just randomly turning on you for a better fight. It's honestly kind of arguable if greenskins are capable of self reflection and being actual people instead of just violent animals that can say some words cause it's a very rare orc or goblin that can feel sadness, regret or just being plain tired. Overall I can't see any interactions with the WoL and Scions that doesn't end with blades swinging towards heads.
As for WHF 'Beast Tribes' I could honestly see a Skaven beast tribe in the vein of the Kobold beast tribe aka a group/clan of lazy piece of shits who are tired of being exploited by the rest of their society and goverment to fight, mine and die for the collective that doesn't care for them. Basically a group of outcasts who don't jive with the main culture that makes Skaven society so bad. Would be a bit unlikely to run into such a group and they wouldn't be completely innocent but it's a possibility I think.
As for Beastmen IDK it just feels weird to paint them with the Beast Tribe 'misunderstood and/or having legitimate grievances' brush since to me they're just chaos slaves who even if worthy of pity are just going to attack humanity regardless of interactions since it's what their masters command even if the beastmen in question doesn't want to. Like there's probably a lot of different sources that portrays them differently but it feels like such a different take than what I'm used it would take a bit to get my head wrapped around it. Cause it's not really culture or environment that drives beastment aggression and evil like with the skaven but that the beastmen are kind of fundamentally tainted.
Maybe WoL with anti-Tempering magic can do something, since iirc by Endbringers post game they have a cure to Tempering, but I'm not sure that would work for the born and raised beastmen since like the taint of Chaos is all they know. What would a random beastmen who has never known love or compassion do if suddenly purged of the corruption of their dark gods? Like I could see someone mutated into a beastmen and struggling with that change becoming a person again if purified or even a beastman baby being raised by a loving human mother being raised as a normal kid without the taint of chaos but a beastmen without either of those circumstances just feels like it would be soulless without chaos.
It's still true that majority of Orcs and Goblins are completely unreasonable who no true peace can be had with. You can hire some to be mercenaries but there's always the risk of them just randomly turning on you for a better fight. It's honestly kind of arguable if greenskins are capable of self reflection and being actual people instead of just violent animals that can say some words cause it's a very rare orc or goblin that can feel sadness, regret or just being plain tired. Overall I can't see any interactions with the WoL and Scions that doesn't end with blades swinging towards heads.
As for WHF 'Beast Tribes' I could honestly see a Skaven beast tribe in the vein of the Kobold beast tribe aka a group/clan of lazy piece of shits who are tired of being exploited by the rest of their society and goverment to fight, mine and die for the collective that doesn't care for them. Basically a group of outcasts who don't jive with the main culture that makes Skaven society so bad. Would be a bit unlikely to run into such a group and they wouldn't be completely innocent but it's a possibility I think.
As for Beastmen IDK it just feels weird to paint them with the Beast Tribe 'misunderstood and/or having legitimate grievances' brush since to me they're just chaos slaves who even if worthy of pity are just going to attack humanity regardless of interactions since it's what their masters command even if the beastmen in question doesn't want to. Like there's probably a lot of different sources that portrays them differently but it feels like such a different take than what I'm used it would take a bit to get my head wrapped around it. Cause it's not really culture or environment that drives beastment aggression and evil like with the skaven but that the beastmen are kind of fundamentally tainted.
Maybe WoL with anti-Tempering magic can do something, since iirc by Endbringers post game they have a cure to Tempering, but I'm not sure that would work for the born and raised beastmen since like the taint of Chaos is all they know. What would a random beastmen who has never known love or compassion do if suddenly purged of the corruption of their dark gods? Like I could see someone mutated into a beastmen and struggling with that change becoming a person again if purified or even a beastman baby being raised by a loving human mother being raised as a normal kid without the taint of chaos but a beastmen without either of those circumstances just feels like it would be soulless without chaos.
Winged Knight
Still just a crazy man with a wolf on his head
- Location
- Texas
The thing to remember about witch hunters, for all that there have been abuses of power and genuinely awful people within the organization, is that they actually are beholden to both the Cult of Sigmar as well as local authority when exercising their power. There's protocol to be followed, as seen with Saltzpyre when he was dragging Sienna back to Ubersreik to stand trial for murder rather than pushing for an execution right then even when he had several witnesses to her acts.
Which isn't counting the vigilantes with a lot of money who get themselves a fancy sword, gun, and hat to act on their own. But the official organization tends to hate those people anyway.
Like, let's not beat around the bush. Warhammer Fantasy is a rough setting full of rough people dealing with threats from many different angles. But they're not filled near top to bottom with psychopaths like 40k. Rare is going to be the time when Elriza is going to deal with someone who is set hell or high water on seeing her dead.
As for orcs, beastmen, mutants and the like? We've got examples all over the place that they're not a monolith and that there's been cooperation between them and different factions before. That leaves fertile ground for Elriza to interact with people of differing viewpoints, learn of their cultures, and try to find common ground between them.
A big theme in FF14 is that the Warrior of Light can't be everywhere at once or handle every problem with violence alone, because when it comes to fighting they're a walking super weapon who will just win. Many of the greatest struggles in that game come from when strength of arms isn't the solution, and I look forward to seeing how Maugan goes into that with this crossover.
Which isn't counting the vigilantes with a lot of money who get themselves a fancy sword, gun, and hat to act on their own. But the official organization tends to hate those people anyway.
Like, let's not beat around the bush. Warhammer Fantasy is a rough setting full of rough people dealing with threats from many different angles. But they're not filled near top to bottom with psychopaths like 40k. Rare is going to be the time when Elriza is going to deal with someone who is set hell or high water on seeing her dead.
As for orcs, beastmen, mutants and the like? We've got examples all over the place that they're not a monolith and that there's been cooperation between them and different factions before. That leaves fertile ground for Elriza to interact with people of differing viewpoints, learn of their cultures, and try to find common ground between them.
A big theme in FF14 is that the Warrior of Light can't be everywhere at once or handle every problem with violence alone, because when it comes to fighting they're a walking super weapon who will just win. Many of the greatest struggles in that game come from when strength of arms isn't the solution, and I look forward to seeing how Maugan goes into that with this crossover.
Nah, it's explicitly stated in the Orcs & Goblins 8th Edition book that they come from spores like their 40k counterparts.
And at the same time, Witch Hunters barely tolerate the Colleges of Magic even though it was government-sanctioned and legalized by Magnus the Pious with the Articles of Magic he made and proofread, and strictly supervised by Teclis and his fellow High Elf mages to train human wizards that each of them can learn 1 Wind of Magic they're compatible with and focus on.
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
Average Witch Hunter is correct about the dangers of untrained magic users 90% of the time misleading statistic.
If Not For The Grace Of Sigmar Thou Wouldst Have Been Damned George, who has burned roughly 90,000 people at the stake for implying he's ever incorrect about about the dangers of untrained magic users, is a statistical outlier and should not be factored into the equation.
Barely tolerate is basically the entire Empire attitude. It's a mass of organizations that do a bunch of politicking, backstabbing, deliberate obstruction against one another.