Unless it takes a long time (in which case, it's not worth it, as Lex decided) to get even simple magic, any of it would help. For Magic is Supermans greatest weakness that doesn't begin with a K, and since Kryptonite alone apparently doesn't cut it in taking down the Blue Boyscout, might as well ad some magic on top. But he doesn't, and thus, there has to be a reason.

Even simple magic is extremely useful for a wide variety of uses. After all, if magic wasn't useful, there'd be no low level mages, they wouldn't be interesting to write a story about.

Just because there hasn't been talk of a talent for magic, doesn't mean that such a thing isn't a thing. They never said what are the conditions to someone learning magic, so we have to "make shit up". You have covered that there are magic users who aren't Homo Magi, but that doesn't mean that they don't got something special to them. In Marvel, not all Supers are Mutants, but not everyone can be Super. Almost all Supers were special in some way, even if they weren't part of some special race of Supers. Ras in particular is super old, he has had plenty of time to learn the magic the hard slow way even if he personally has no talent. That means that anyone CAN do magic, but would have to dedicate years/decades to achieve what the naturally talented can do in days. He has had plenty of time to hone his craft, he's exceptional, and thus an exception, not the rule.

Those idiots, there are two possible explanations.
1) They got magic. They are one of those who do got a magical talent, and presumably magical souls are more tasty than mundane souls.
2) They didn't really do much magic, it was the Demon that did all the heavy lifting. They drew the runes and did all the prep work the Demon needed, which allowed him to be summoned. After all, Constantine is talking as if the Kids were tricked into this, the Demon explicitly wanted this, which presumably isn't the case in normal demon summonings.

Superman is not that weak to magic if that was the case then Superman would be paste every time Shzam hit him with his lighting so it probably would be better for Lex to get better tech then some magic, also he was fucked over by a demon so maybe he hates magic thanks to that? It still proves that anyone can use magic, Also we can make a deal with a magical being later when we got the basics later in the game.

And most demons prboably would want to be summoned as they want to be on earth and fuck around and they did a bidning of it but they fucked it up in the end.
 
Those idiots, there are two possible explanations.
1) They got magic. They are one of those who do got a magical talent, and presumably magical souls are more tasty than mundane souls.
2) They didn't really do much magic, it was the Demon that did all the heavy lifting. They drew the runes and did all the prep work the Demon needed, which allowed him to be summoned. After all, Constantine is talking as if the Kids were tricked into this, the Demon explicitly wanted this, which presumably isn't the case in normal demon summonings.
Third option, you don't need particular talent to use magic just some rudimentary source of knowledge and a willingness to mess with forces beyond your control. I imagine that would also be a pretty fair reason for Luthor to find its use unpalatable.

Fact is, we don't have much of an idea about the mechanics of magic and until the OP weighs in, we can't know how it'll work in this quest. Intelligence benefitting its study is as good a guess as any though.
 
Superman is not that weak to magic if that was the case then Superman would be paste every time Shzam hit him with his lighting so it probably would be better for Lex to get better tech then some magic, also he was fucked over by a demon so maybe he hates magic thanks to that? It still proves that anyone can use magic, Also we can make a deal with a magical being later when we got the basics later in the game.

And most demons prboably would want to be summoned as they want to be on earth and fuck around and they did a bidning of it but they fucked it up in the end.
Let me quote the wiki
Kryptonian Physiology: Under the effects of a "yellow" sun, Superman possesses the same potential weaknesses as an average Kryptonian. These include:
He is vulnerable to Magic, by which I mean he is not as invulnerable to Magic as he is to Not-Magic. Superman has a number of things that make him super tough on top of his natural durability, and magic cuts through all but the last line of defense. You still have to hit him VERY hard if you want to hurt him, but not as hard as you would if you were using normal physics.
However, you can bypass even those defenses, if you aren't dumb and rely on hitting him very hard. Magic can do a lot of shit, such as turning people into Bunnies. You can turn Superman into a Bunny, and he has no defense against being turned into a Bunny.

Lex being screwed over by a demon is just more likely to make him learn magic. I shall repeat myself, there is nothing he hates more than Superman, and he is absolutely fine with making himself a pill to give himself Superman's powers. He has shown on several instances that he likes to get revenge on people by taking their own strength and turning it against them. So yeah, get screwed over by magic, then following all previous characterization he'd be interested in using magic to screw that person over. The fact he doesn't implies he can't for one reason or another.

Most demons probably don't want to be summoned, because most mages aren't idiots like these guys who'd screw up the binding ritual, which means most summonings would result in them being bound and turned into slaves. What's more, imagine that they fucked up the binding ritual that was described in the book the demon itself gave them.
Third option, you don't need particular talent to use magic just some rudimentary source of knowledge and a willingness to mess with forces beyond your control. I imagine that would also be a pretty fair reason for Luthor to find its use unpalatable.

Fact is, we don't have much of an idea about the mechanics of magic and until the OP weighs in, we can't know how it'll work in this quest. Intelligence benefitting its study is as good a guess as any though.
Did you skip some of hte conversation up to this point? That third option isn't possible, because if it was magic used would be rather wide spread. All it takes is one idiot to go "Hello Youtube! Today I'm going to show you how to summon a Imp, subscribe for more demon summonings" Then it'd become a widespread fact that not only is Magic real, but you could perform a demon summoning by following the simple instructions. And you can be certain even more idiots would watch and try to perform it themselves (I mean, how many people have stories of doing that Bloody Mary thing? There are tons of idiots who'd mess with forces like that on a dare), proving that the oen guy wasn't a hoax.

With the proven existence of magic and how easy it is, magic would become mainstream, because why wouldn't it? The fact that it isn't mainstream, means some part of that process didn't work out, the only part I could see consistently not working is when the idiots of the world tried to recreate the ritual, it doesn't work for them.
 
Did you skip some of hte conversation up to this point? That third option isn't possible, because if it was magic used would be rather wide spread. All it takes is one idiot to go "Hello Youtube! Today I'm going to show you how to summon a Imp, subscribe for more demon summonings" Then it'd become a widespread fact that not only is Magic real, but you could perform a demon summoning by following the simple instructions. And you can be certain even more idiots would watch and try to perform it themselves (I mean, how many people have stories of doing that Bloody Mary thing? There are tons of idiots who'd mess with forces like that on a dare), proving that the oen guy wasn't a hoax.

With the proven existence of magic and how easy it is, magic would become mainstream, because why wouldn't it? The fact that it isn't mainstream, means some part of that process didn't work out, the only part I could see consistently not working is when the idiots of the world tried to recreate the ritual, it doesn't work for them.
No, I haven't missed the conversation. Third option that it doesn't follow easily definable rules still stands.
 
No, I haven't missed the conversation. Third option that it doesn't follow easily definable rules still stands.
You said that you'd need " just some rudimentary source of knowledge and a willingness to mess with forces beyond your control." If that was all you needed, you could get it from a Youtube Video. If that was all you needed, why would magic not become wide spread knokwledge?
 
You said that you'd need " just some rudimentary source of knowledge and a willingness to mess with forces beyond your control." If that was all you needed, you could get it from a Youtube Video. If that was all you needed, why would magic not become wide spread knokwledge?
Because they're forces beyond your control, ones that don't follow definable rules that allow you to perform magic by following online instructions?

Also:
Fact is, we don't have much of an idea about the mechanics of magic and until the OP weighs in, we can't know how it'll work in this quest.
 
Because they're forces beyond your control, ones that don't follow definable rules that allow you to perform magic by following online instructions?

Also:
So the people who did the ritual, the instructions were a total hoax and it was just dumb luck that they managed to summon a demon? Is that what you are suggesting? Becasue nothing is stopping them from posting the instructiosn they found, and if it's dumb luck then that proves my point just as well that going for a Int Build won't be that helpful in finding and learning Magic.
 
So the people who did the ritual, the instructions were a total hoax and it was just dumb luck that they managed to summon a demon? Is that what you are suggesting? Becasue nothing is stopping them from posting the instructiosn they found, and if it's dumb luck then that proves my point just as well that going for a Int Build won't be that helpful in finding and learning Magic.
Instructions don't have to be a hoax for the user to lack control of the ritual. The beings being summoned could have some say in it too.

There could also be other reasons. Like the alignment of the moon or bloodtype or any of the other undefinable possibilities that are often said to play a part in magic, hell, even belief! The fact is that it being not completely definable is a possibility but learning all the rules we can could be helped along by increased intelligence so:
Fact is, we don't have much of an idea about the mechanics of magic and until the OP weighs in, we can't know how it'll work in this quest. Intelligence benefitting its study is as good a guess as any though.
 
Instructions don't have to be a hoax for the user to lack control of the ritual. The beings being summoned could have some say in it too.

There could also be other reasons. Like the alignment of the moon or bloodtype or any of the other undefinable possibilities that are often said to play a part in magic, hell, even belief! The fact is that it being not completely definable is a possibility but learning all the rules we can could be helped along by increased intelligence so:
Instructions have to be a hoax if they aren't replicateable. THe being being summoned, provided it needed the instructions carried out, would probably be fine with taking the souls of all the other idiots as well as the soul of the first one they conned.

With all the idiots out there trying it out, as long as it's more than just a quirk of fake (thus, the instructions being a total hoax), they'd be recreated. They aren't the only White Teenage A-Positive Virgin Social-Outcast True-Believers to perform it on the 29th of May when the Moon is Full. There are tons of idiots out there, and a pattern would immerge if there are any rules at all that a human could "learn". Because how in the hell would someone learn Magic, if it's inherently mysterious and unknowable? When they say Abracadabra, how do they know what the heck is going to happen, or that ANYTHING is going to happen, if the rules are so vague and chaotic as you are implying?



Just because we don't know about the mechanics till OP weighs in doesn't mean we shouldn't think. Else, the argument that Appearance would let us become a Magician is a perfectly valid guess. How many of the good sorcerers in the world don't look awesome? Thus, an appearance build is the best choice for looking for Magic.
 
Two things.

1. For Superman, it is kind of a misuse of terms. Yes, things in canon say "he is weak to magic" but that is a matter of perspective. Superman is used to being immune to everything. So he sees magic as a weakness. It isn't.

What happens is that Superman is just not immune to magic. It hurts him like anyone else. Fire magic burns him, lightning magic electrocutes him. He is just powerful enough, and heals fast enough, for it to not keep him down unless it is powerful magic. He isn't weak to it, like Kryptonite. Rather it is like red sunlight. He is just normal to it. And for a person that is immune to things, normal seems weak. Which is why he says red sunlight is a weakness when it isn't. It is actually his normal.

2. To the QM. You mentioned merits coming at an event after chara term creation. What about buying maluses away? Could we pay the price to get rid of a malus, causing something to happen in the fic to overcome said malus?
 
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1. For Superman, it is kind of a misuse of terms. Yes, things in canon say "he is weak to magic" but that is a matter of perspective. Superman is used to being immune to everything. So he sees magic as a weakness. It isn't.

What happens is that Superman is just not immune to magic. It hurts him like anyone else. Fire magic burns him, lightning magic electrocutes him. He is just powerful enough, and heals fast enough, for it to not keep him down unless it is powerful magic. He isn't weak to it, like Kryptonite. Rather it is like red sunlight. He is just normal to it. And for a person that is immune to things, normal seems weak. Which is why he says red sunlight is a weakness when it isn't. It is actually his normal.
Yeah, I'm aware of that, and I'm pretty sure I said that. Supes has a lot of defenses, and Magic bypasses just about all of them. He's still VERY tough, so Magic Lightning won't instakill him, but it will do far more damage than regular lightning. And you could try doing stuff other than hitting him really hard, like turning him into a rabbit. He has no more resistance to bunnification than your average joe on the street, and a Rabbit is far easier to deal with. And thus, if Luthor was capable of learning Magic, I see no reason he wouldn't have. If A then B, thus if not B then not A.

And if he's not capable, well then that means that being Smart does not neccessarily help you learn magic, you need something that Lex Luthor lacked. And he didn't lack smarts.


@WastingPixies I'm going to ask again, since last time I justed edited it in and it's been pointed out to me before that edited in mentions don't always work, when does the Vote close?
 
[X] You remember racing with your enemy, dancing circles around the rest of the world, all in the attempts to be one step ahead. You knew that it was only a matter of time before you were passed that finish line and leave him behind in your dust.

[X][PLAN] Plan Looking for Magic

So, seems like the conversation is getting out of hand, let's all take a deep breath and wait until the QM comes and weighs in to this. I mean the QM's word is LAW, so the magic is in limbo, either of your arguments is correct until the QM says it is not.
 
Yeah, I'm aware of that, and I'm pretty sure I said that.
Yes, you did.

I don't want to get involved in this, so I'm just going to say like..
Option 3: You don't need to be smart/special/whatever w/ magic, BUT magic either a) is super delicate so while you don't need to be smart & etc. it's easy to fuck up & doing so has bad consequences (unlike w/ science, which apparently results in superpowers all the time) or b) performing magic always has a pretty steep price (deal with the devil, sacrifice your life for the sake of Order, etc.).

Or maybe it just is a major pain to hunt down the appropriate instructions and no one has time for it so no one does it. Probably a combination of all three: It takes a lot of effort to discover, needs to be done perfectly, and comes at a cost. Not to mention that magic, unlike technology, doesn't seem very automateable.
 
[X] You remember looking at your great enemy, even when no one else realized what he meant. The words he spoke were a convincing veil, but a threat to all he was. So when no one else saw what he was, you made sure they would see the truth.


[X][PLAN] Plan Just an average Tay(lor)

- [ ] Might 7 (c-, 10 points)

- [ ] Fin 7 (c-, 10 points)

- [ ] Sta 7 (c-, 10 points)

- [ ] Int 10 (b-, 21 points)

- [ ] Will 8 (c, 13 points)

- [ ] App 7 (c-, 10 points)

- [ ] Cha 7 (c-, 10 points)

- [ ] Rec 7 (c-, 10 points) (Total stat points: 94)

  • [ ] Merits (Total merit points: 30)
[1 CP] Cross Dominant

[5 CP] Enhanced Senses x 5

[2 CP] Eidetic Memory

[2 CP] Foreboding Feelings

[2 CP] Bravery

[2 CP] Cat-like Balance

[2 CP] Double Jointed

[2 CP] Silken Voice

[3 CP] Daredevil

[4 CP] On Your Toes

[5 CP] Toughness

  • [ ] Maluses (Total maluses points: 5)
[+2 CP] Curiosity

[+3 CP] Loathing (being vulnerable)
 
[X] You remember looking at your great enemy, even when no one else realized what he meant. The words he spoke were a convincing veil, but a threat to all he was. So when no one else saw what he was, you made sure they would see the truth.


[X][PLAN] Plan Just an average Tay(lor)
 
Yeah, I'm aware of that, and I'm pretty sure I said that. Supes has a lot of defenses, and Magic bypasses just about all of them. He's still VERY tough, so Magic Lightning won't instakill him, but it will do far more damage than regular lightning. And you could try doing stuff other than hitting him really hard, like turning him into a rabbit. He has no more resistance to bunnification than your average joe on the street, and a Rabbit is far easier to deal with. And thus, if Luthor was capable of learning Magic, I see no reason he wouldn't have. If A then B, thus if not B then not A.

And if he's not capable, well then that means that being Smart does not neccessarily help you learn magic, you need something that Lex Luthor lacked. And he didn't lack smarts.


@WastingPixies I'm going to ask again, since last time I justed edited it in and it's been pointed out to me before that edited in mentions don't always work, when does the Vote close?
Uh, that was a reply to the conversation in general and not to you, which is why you weren't quoted or mentioned actually.

But now I do have one thing to say to you directly.

Lex Luthor possibly not being able to learn magic in no way means that intelligence doesn't help. For all we know, it takes intelligence to learn higher magics, but there could also be some other necessary hidden mechanic that even makes it possible in the first place. Meaning:

Person who can use magic but dumb = Person A.
Person who can use magic and is a genius = Person B.
Person who can't use magic but is a genius = Person C.

Person B would then be better at magic than person A, while Lex, Person C is unable no matter how hard he tries. Until the QM says how they are handling magic, whether it requires an inborn ability or something to even make it possible, using Lex as the deciding factor as to whether intelligence helps or doesn't help is bad science.

Of course assuming that intelligence does help is... an educated guess since intelligence tends to help with understanding anything, but considering it the be all end all is also bad science. Considering the various types of magic systems that could be used, it could be more instinctive than anything else, which intelligence wouldn't actually do much for. In the end, all is up to the QM and assumptions are the enemy.
 
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Uh, that was a reply to the conversation in general and not to you, which is why you weren't quoted or mentioned actually.

But now I do have one thing to say to you directly.

Lex Luthor possibly not being able to learn magic in no wayvmeans that intelligence doesn't help. For all we know, it takes intelligence to learn higher magics, but there could also be some other necessary hidden mechanic that even makes it possible in the first place. Meaning:

Person who can use magic but dumb = Person A.
Person who can use magic and is a genius = Person B.
Person who can't use magic but is a genius = Person C.

Person B would then be better at magic than person A, while Lex, Person C is unable no matter how hard he tries. Until the QM says how they are handling magic, whether it requires an inborn ability or something to even make it possible, using Lex as the deciding factor as to whether intelligence helps or doesn't help is bad science.

We do know that you dont need a inborn ability to learn magic see Ras al ghul mind wiping batman, but whe dont know the exact time it takes for a person of a non magical bloodline to gain magic, as Ras al ghuls is hundreds of years old.
 
We do know that you dont need a inborn ability to learn magic see Ras al ghul mind wiping batman, but whe dont know the exact time it takes for a person of a non magical bloodline to gain magic, as Ras al ghuls is hundreds of years old.
Also, Ras could have such an inborn trait, or the Lazarus pools could have given it to him.

Thing is, we can't use anyone to assume that an inborn trait isn't needed, including those who "gain" magic from an artifact or some other means. For all we know, they had a trait, and they just never knew how to use magic, or that they even had the capability, only having the ability awakened by said artifact. Which is why it is up to the QM. We need a ruling on it to be sure, because many interpretations are possible.
 
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Also, Ras could have such an inborn trait, or the Lazarus pools could have given it to him.

Thing is, we can't use anyone to assume that an inborn trait isn't needed, including those who "gain" magic from an artifact or some other means. For all we know, they had a trait, and they just never knew how to use magic, or that they even had the capability, only having the ability awakened by said artifact. Which is why it is up to the QM. We need a ruling on it to be sure, because many interpretations are possible.

True, but there has never been said that Ras was a homo magi or from some other magic bloodline and they should probably have talked about that if that was a thing, also the Lazarus pit should give you meta powers not magic powers. We have even seen Batman casting spells see.

 
True, but there has never been said that Ras was a homo magi or from some other magic bloodline and they should probably have talked about that if that was a thing, also the Lazarus pit should give you meta powers not magic powers. We have even seen Batman casting spells see.

Don't misunderstand, I agree that it probably isn't a trait thing. But I won't assume that it isn't. That is my point.
 
True, but there has never been said that Ras was a homo magi or from some other magic bloodline and they should probably have talked about that if that was a thing, also the Lazarus pit should give you meta powers not magic powers. We have even seen Batman casting spells see.

There's a lot of things that they should talk about in Comics, but they don't for whatever reason. The fact that they don't doesn't mean it's not true.

... why is the Lazarus Pit meta not magic? And what is the inherent difference?

Batman acted as a conduit for a spell someone else already set up. He didn't cast the spell himself.
 
There's a lot of things that they should talk about in Comics, but they don't for whatever reason. The fact that they don't doesn't mean it's not true.

... why is the Lazarus Pit meta not magic? And what is the inherent difference?

Batman acted as a conduit for a spell someone else already set up. He didn't cast the spell himself.

No it said that she gave him the word not that she powerd them read it again.

Also Lazarus pits have Dionesium in it that is what gives them the healing power, and it does not have anything to do with magic probably. And it seems to give Vandal savage smal amounts of meta powers by you know making him smarter, and the differences between magic users and metas seems to be that metas are "science" whilst magic is not.
 
No it said that she gave him the word not that she powerd them read it again.

Also Lazarus pits have Dionesium in it that is what gives them the healing power, and it does not have anything to do with magic probably. And it seems to give Vandal savage smal amounts of meta powers by you know making him smarter, and the differences between magic users and metas seems to be that metas are "science" whilst magic is not.
And who made it so that the utterance of that word held any meaning? Who made it so that speaking the words is an incantation, rather than simple sound? Honestly, the way it's set up makes it sound like it's actually some part of that villain lady, rather than anything Zatanna set up. Like the White Witch and the Deplorable Word, it was a word inherent to the world itself that, once spoken, ended everything. Not the White Witch casting the magic, but invoking some "self destruct protocol" that was an inherent part of that world.

Huh, never knew what made the Lazarus Pits work was ever explained (consistently). Thought it was always just some magic pit that, when bathed in, it revived you.
 
And who made it so that the utterance of that word held any meaning? Who made it so that speaking the words is an incantation, rather than simple sound? Honestly, the way it's set up makes it sound like it's actually some part of that villain lady, rather than anything Zatanna set up. Like the White Witch and the Deplorable Word, it was a word inherent to the world itself that, once spoken, ended everything. Not the White Witch casting the magic, but invoking some "self destruct protocol" that was an inherent part of that world.

Huh, never knew what made the Lazarus Pits work was ever explained (consistently). Thought it was always just some magic pit that, when bathed in, it revived you.

I dont know if magic even works that way it could be just making that sounds casts a spell for all we know. And no there has never been anything other then this that shows that she is weak to these words.
 
I dont know if magic even works that way it could be just making that sounds casts a spell for all we know. And no there has never been anything other then this that shows that she is weak to these words.

This is a no. Because if magic was just sounds causing results, anyone could do what Zatanna does. People could just copy any of the magical heroes words and become supers. Not gonna fly there. Only time "just words" has worked is if people are reading a spell, which would make it seem like the spellbook or scroll or whatever makes it work. No one else who says "Shazam" gets changed. Only those who were imbued with the power. Even if he says it and the lightning bolt hits them, they get hurt, not more powerful.

However, the comics contradict themselves more than once, partly due to the fact that they have been written and rewritten in so many incarnations, with things being kept but the reasons being changed, partly due to having different authors with their own ideas and interpretations over time, partly due to politics, partly due to the changes on societyvand morals, partly due to political correctness in the various times.

In the end, we are stuck with nothing but what I said originally. Needing a QM ruling. Because what interpretation is used is up to the QM. So it would be nice if we could just get one of those. @WastingPixies
 
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