Athene
Rise for the Shadow Queen
- Location
- Dream of The 90s
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I dunno, some of the other episodes in Season 1 and 2...
I dunno, some of the other episodes in Season 1 and 2...
And he's morally better than Phlox because he's willing to do the right thing even if he fails.Dr Franklin on several occasions becomes blinded by his own brilliance and moral superiority and does the wrong thing
That was basically the attitude towards the Prime Directive that Gene Roddenberry established in early TNG. It went from being a rule to not do colonialism in TOS to a quasi-religious belief in there being a "cosmic plan" that certain people were "fated to die" and interfering would be "the height of hubris." (Those are all quotes from the TNG Season 2 episode "Pen Pals" in case you're wondering.) Even after Roddenberry was kicked upstairs, the interpretation that "letting whole species die is better than doing anything to help because raisens" stuck around through the rest of TNG, Voyager and Enterprise.Phlox is basically saying "because Evolutionary method wills it" and you know what? He sounds like a religious fanatic who refuses aid and says "because God wills it."
Oh the irony of a supposedly atheistic, enlightened society. One cannot escape the adoration impulses of one's nature as mortal.That was basically the attitude towards the Prime Directive that Gene Roddenberry established in early TNG. It went from being a rule to not do colonialism in TOS to a quasi-religious belief in there being a "cosmic plan" that certain people were "fated to die" and interfering would be "the height of hubris."
That's a strange way to put it. By definition, an atheist would not believe in any sort of higher power that could make anything "fated" or "will it." That's why the exchange in "Pen Pals" is so bizarre: it's a meaningless argument from the point of view of an atheist like the Enterprise crew are supposed to be, on par with telling an adult in all seriousness, "Don't embezzle that money because Santa will give you coal for Christmas."Oh the irony of a supposedly atheistic, enlightened society. One cannot escape the adoration impulses of one's nature as mortal.
Even atheists would agree that "X wills it" or "its fate" reasons or more accurately excuses are stupid.
Motherfucker you have like 30 pets, what the fuck is this shit?
But, Archer here at least means well and T'Pol says that the number of warp capable races they've already met means this doesn't really violate any Vulcan protocols so they go to try to help them.
PHLOX [VO]: The Captain has committed all our resources to helping people he didn't even know existed two days ago. Once again, I am struck by your species' desire to help others.
Seriously, he has emotions but zero empathy, its incredible.
You have to love the "we have no right to play god"bullshit. You are playing god right now! You are deciding the fate of 2 species! You could not be playing god harder if you named yourself Jesus Christ the third!
Well there's this conversation between Sisko and Kilana a Vorta:That's a strange way to put it. By definition, an atheist would not believe in any sort of higher power that could make anything "fated" or "will it."
Belief isn't limited to deities. Philosophies and Concepts are valid things to "believe in.""Do you have any gods, Captain Sisko?"
"There are things I believe in."
"Duty? Starfleet? The Federation? You must be pleased with yourself. You have the ship to take back to them. I hope it was worth it."
"So do I."
We only see them interact with each other once.
ESAAK: No, he's Menk. They're not as evolved as Valakians but they're very hard workers.
Not only that, but in the episode A Night In Sickbay, Tucker says that Archer is "a trained diplomat."
Keep in mind that this is in the context of an episode where Archer has caused an international incident by bringing his dog with him to meet with alien dignitaries and said dog then peed on their sacred trees, and Archer is blaming the aliens for the fact that his dog got sick on their planet and threatening to pee on their trees himself.
"Trained diplomat."
Belief is a word with broad meaning. There's a difference between belief in the validity of an ideal or devotion to a cause and belief in supernatural concepts like deities and fate. Sisko believes in duty and the Federation, but he doesn't think that he can pray to duty for miracles or that the Federation is a force of cosmic fate the controls the future.Belief isn't limited to deities. Philosophies and Concepts are valid things to "believe in."
I don't know if we can count those as "trained" since I don't think there were a lot of formal education programs offering degrees in International Relations during the Age of Sail. Presumably Tucker meant that Archer is a trained diplomat by 22nd century standards, which hopefully has higher standards than the likes of Ferdinand Magellan and Captain Cook.Uh have you read how some trained diplomats behaved during the Age of Sail Enterprise is supposed to be the space version of? If anything Archer is painfully average in the trained diplomat department for what he is supposed to be. Not that the writers actually intended him to be that way mind you.
So what I found myself thinking is "Why is this guy a doctor?"
Damn, you beat me to making this point. But yeah, Pen Pals kind of suggests "That was basically the attitude towards the Prime Directive that Gene Roddenberry established in early TNG.
<Tobi>Also I don't think I need to say that the disease does not match its symptoms do I? Its declared to be a protein binding issue in chromosomes but they talk about it like a viral or bacterial infection.
<Tobi>What's worse is, there was a better plot hidden inside this one. The Enterprise runs into an apartheid state where the main race is dying off. The Enterprise can cure it but they're uncomfortable with the treatment of another race by the ones dying. What are the terms of them giving them the cure? Do they try to demand social change? How do they mean to enforce that? Do they just give them the cure with no strings attached? What is the morality and ethics of the situation? Obviously they don't want to let a race die out but what if the aliens call their bluff if they do demand change? Do they enforce it at the barrel of a gun? There are many more interesting stories that can be done here. Maybe they can pick the wrong choice and the situation absolutely collapses and they leave the place worse than when it starts and they lament having made the wrong choice? That would require Archer to ever be wrong of course, but Babylon 5 wasn't afraid to have characters fail. Dr Franklin on several occasions becomes blinded by his own brilliance and moral superiority and does the wrong thing.
Well, we are talking about two individuals who made Treshold, a vision of the evolution of humankind, triggered by a knockoff of the infinity drive in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Their vision of evolution isn't even as nonsensical as Larmarckism, where individuals of a species change in response to the environment, there vision involves complete "evolutionary" pre-destination. When time passes, a species changes according to changes already programmed into them by "evolution". I'm reminded of the episode of Voyager where they construct the sapient ancestors of dinosaurs who fled into the delta quadrant with their holo-chamber, and perfectly recreate them, despite knowing next to nothing about the environment.A species doesn't evolve into dying out, unless there's sudden changes in the environment. The above infectious agent could be such a change, but then the episode goes and says it's entirely genetic, so who the fuck knows? You can interpret this episode as being something like that infectious agent meeting something like sickle cell anemia - genetic traits that are beneficial unless you get two copies of it are absolutely a thing. But why would you?
What most viewers will get out of this episode is a butchered version of evolution where it has some intent or destiny you can interfere with - for one species to get some place, while the other doesn't.
Sounds quite interesting!As far as I know, Torchship (an RPG) by @open_sketch will indeed be about plots like that, basically being Star Trek but with different sensibilities in a lot of ways. It certainly throws out the Prime Directive, and the notion that there is one perfect answer to anything.
Genus Homo has been deliberately fire-processing its food (at first opportunistically, then by fire-keeping, and finally by fire-starting) for 120 kiloyears, and it shows in the dentition of H. sapiens.I think there is also an argument to be had that sapient, tool-using species don't really evolve,
I was more talking species past the development of agriculture. Sorry if I didn't make it clear.Genus Homo has been deliberately fire-processing its food (at first opportunistically, then by fire-keeping, and finally by fire-starting) for 120 kiloyears, and it shows in the dentition of H. sapiens.
Also, in "Pen Pals" they don't actually let the people on the planet die. After all the talk about how letting whole sapient species be wiped out is enlightened (that's the other thing about how Roddenberry changed the Prime Directive for TNG: not only were they supposed to let people die, but they had to be insufferably smug about it), it only lasts until Picard actually hears the voice of a child who is going to die, at which point he finds an excuse to save them anyway. Which is generally how the Prime Directive was used in TOS: any time it got mentioned, it was right before they decided that this was an exception. (And it was also about not screwing with pre-warp civilizations so as to prevent colonialism, not about messing with the "cosmic plan" by preventing natural disasters.)Damn, you beat me to making this point. But yeah, Pen Pals kind of suggests "GodFate intends for the civilization to die via plate tectonics, so who are we to interfere?" This has fewer real life implications, since no political movement is advocating against helping victims of natural disaster, which doesn't unfortunately apply to Eugenics. And it is somewhat easier to overlook the behavior, since the Enterprise crew aren't talking to most of the people involved, only one individual. But purely from the utilitarian, in universe view, the non-intervention decision in Pen Pals is on par.
Not only that, but the vision of humanity's future evolution in "Threshold" is that humans will become non-sapient salamander creatures with no tool-using appendages that can only crawl while dragging their back halves, who are allergic to water and can't breathe oxygen. Because this is somehow an improvement?Well, we are talking about two individuals who made Treshold, a vision of the evolution of humankind, triggered by a knockoff of the infinity drive in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Their vision of evolution isn't even as nonsensical as Larmarckism, where individuals of a species change in response to the environment, there vision involves complete "evolutionary" pre-destination. When time passes, a species changes according to changes already programmed into them by "evolution". I'm reminded of the episode of Voyager where they construct the sapient ancestors of dinosaurs who fled into the delta quadrant with their holo-chamber, and perfectly recreate them, despite knowing next to nothing about the environment.
Sedentary agriculture is just another source of selection pressure. H. sapiens today has a more gracile facial structure than H. sapiens 10kya.I was more talking species past the development of agriculture. Sorry if I didn't make it clear.
Interesting, but I'm not sure this is an example of evolution. We were capable of breeding crops that required far less effort to chew, and in response, the need for a robust facial structure went away. I'm not arguing humans no longer change in response to environmental factors (increased height due to greater food availability in the last 100 years is an example of this), but that we don't really adapt to overcome environmental pressures, but instead change the environment to suit us.Sedentary agriculture is just another source of selection pressure. H. sapiens today has a more gracile facial structure than H. sapiens 10kya.
ARCHER: The Valakians want our warp technology.
T'POL: What did you tell them?
ARCHER: That I'd think about it.
T'POL: And?
ARCHER: Safe to say I know where you stand on the subject.
T'POL: Even if you give them our reactor schematics they don't have the technical expertise to build a warp engine.
ARCHER: They have no experience working with antimatter. I doubt they even realize how dangerous it is. They're not ready.
T'POL: Then your decision shouldn't be difficult.
ARCHER: We could stay and help them.
T'POL: The Vulcans stayed to help Earth ninety years ago. We're still there.
ARCHER: I never thought I'd say this, but I'm beginning to understand how the Vulcans must have felt.
Buddy, who on this ship don't you feel superior to?PHLOX [OC]: Sub-commander T'Pol has a very pragmatic feel of the universe. I admire her logic although she lacks the instinctiveness that a more emotional response can provide. Somehow, I find this unsettling.