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And Our Flag Was Not There: A History of the Second American Civil War.

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Dab master said:
I mean to be clear I think it is good Americans don't want to die to defend Israel of all places. I would be ashamed of my country if they did, and this timeline is, in part, a love letter to Americans if not the United States itself.
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America is doomed to collapse any time now, for it is built on a massive debt to black people and natives. The karmic and monetary debt we have amassed is far too much, and the oppressed of this land have not and cannot and should not forget what has been done to them. Our ideals are grand, we don't even come close to living up to them. And it's time to let the experiment finish its course and begin a new one: Turtle Island. Built on harmony with nature, self sufficiency, and strong local tribes/communities. This culture war is just a way to keep people from waking up and realizing the truth.
 
Dab master said:
I mean I don't know if this counts as too political to discuss but I don't think karmic debt or decolonization is really going to play into things.
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Why do you say that when your entire TL involves Native tribes rising up and uniting with anarchists and other left wing militias under the Milwaukee Accords to fight against neo Nazis and Taliban style dominionists, while also breaking away from the DSA under AOC bc she's just another bourgeois statist in socialist clothing.
 
manav1995 said:
Why do you say that when your entire TL involves Native tribes rising up and uniting with anarchists and other left wing militias under the Milwaukee Accords to fight against neo Nazis and Taliban style dominionists, while also breaking away from the DSA under AOC bc she's just another bourgeois statist in socialist clothing.
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I mean no disrespect, but I've binge read this TL bc it offers a compelling storyline tied to my own ideological journey.
 
manav1995 said:
Why do you say that when your entire TL involves Native tribes rising up and uniting with anarchists and other left wing militias under the Milwaukee Accords to fight against neo Nazis and Taliban style dominionists, while also breaking away from the DSA under AOC bc she's just another bourgeois statist in socialist clothing.
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I mean the timeline is fiction. I'm simply saying this because of numbers.
 
Dab master said:
I mean I don't know if this counts as too political to discuss but I don't think karmic debt or decolonization is really going to play into things.
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Idk if decolonization will be the way it is framed but I do ultimately think that America will have to reckon with the racial injustice it was founded upon if it is to survive the Anthropocene. There's a reason Nazis are so frightened by the differences in birthrates between races, increasing immigration, and interracial marriage even if the white genocide framing is inaccurate. Reckoning could just as easily mean drowning the half of the nation that will never be acceptable to WASP supremacists in blood as it could mean a revolution in race relations. However, every year that the race war they long for doesn't happen the demographics become less and less favorable for them, which is why we see an increasing urgency even among the more dogwhistley types to destroy "wokeness" - i.e. any ideological framework that threatens cisheteropatriarchal, white, Christian supremacy - using openly authoritarian methods.
 
Oleympia said:
Idk if decolonization will be the way it is framed but I do ultimately think that America will have to reckon with the racial injustice it was founded upon if it is to survive the Anthropocene. There's a reason Nazis are so frightened by the differences in birthrates between races, increasing immigration, and interracial marriage even if the white genocide framing is inaccurate. Reckoning could just as easily mean drowning the half of the nation that will never be acceptable to WASP supremacists in blood as it could mean a revolution in race relations. However, every year that the race war they long for doesn't happen the demographics become less and less favorable for them, which is why we see an increasing urgency even among the more dogwhistley types to destroy "wokeness" - i.e. any ideological framework that threatens cisheteropatriarchal, white, Christian supremacy - using openly authoritarian methods.
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The funny part then is they've already lost. Capitalism itself is against them, because it's too expensive to raise children, and the middle class that used to be full of that kind of person is shrinking, with the people dropping out of it not bothering to replace themselves because they see no way to get back up again.
 
Oleympia said:
Idk if decolonization will be the way it is framed but I do ultimately think that America will have to reckon with the racial injustice it was founded upon if it is to survive the Anthropocene. There's a reason Nazis are so frightened by the differences in birthrates between races, increasing immigration, and interracial marriage even if the white genocide framing is inaccurate. Reckoning could just as easily mean drowning the half of the nation that will never be acceptable to WASP supremacists in blood as it could mean a revolution in race relations. However, every year that the race war they long for doesn't happen the demographics become less and less favorable for them, which is why we see an increasing urgency even among the more dogwhistley types to destroy "wokeness" - i.e. any ideological framework that threatens cisheteropatriarchal, white, Christian supremacy - using openly authoritarian methods.
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Also, this "karmic debt" discourse ironically smells a lot like the Calvinism of the United States' first permanent settlers, except flipped on its head, with Anglo-descended whites being the savages, and blacks and natives being the chosen people with a manifest destiny to inherit the land; moreover, American leftism in general, and not just its more radical fringes, seems to still adhere to some form of American exceptionalism, either "the United States are uniquely sinful, as a polity" or "the brand of economic/social justice discourse developed among United States-based scholars and minorities should be applied to the rest of the world as it is, regardless of whether its fits a particular reality or not".

IMO, if I were a radical leftist in the United States, I'd tackle economic inequality first, taxing the mega-rich (and deploying anti-trust measures against them) enough to solve the debt issue and build a reserve of money, that I would then spend to tackle social inequality, building infrastructure and services for poor whites and underprivileged minorities; at the same time, I'd try to cede the land billionaires and real estate types are hoarding to its historical native owners, if they rid their own institutions of the obscene amounts of corruption they're plagued by, something that'd be easier without the above monied interests holding them hostage.
 
Ulmicola said:
Also, this "karmic debt" discourse ironically smells a lot like the Calvinism of the United States' first permanent settlers, except flipped on its head, with Anglo-descended whites being the savages, and blacks and natives being the chosen people with a manifest destiny to inherit the land; moreover, American leftism in general, and not just its more radical fringes, seems to still adhere to some form of American exceptionalism, either "the United States are uniquely sinful, as a polity" or "the brand of economic/social justice discourse developed among United States-based scholars and minorities should be applied to the rest of the world as it is, regardless of whether its fits a particular reality or not".

IMO, if I were a radical leftist in the United States, I'd tackle economic inequality first, taxing the mega-rich (and deploying anti-trust measures against them) enough to solve the debt issue and build a reserve of money, that I would then spend to tackle social inequality, building infrastructure and services for poor whites and underprivileged minorities; at the same time, I'd try to cede the land billionaires and real estate types are hoarding to its historical native owners, if they rid their own institutions of the obscene amounts of corruption they're plagued by, something that'd be easier without the above monied interests holding them hostage.
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Well they were the savages, these White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. And clever schemers as well. They sought to exterminate the natives so they could replicate their way of life from jolly ol England, with large estates owned by the elites and tenant/yeomen farmers having the scraps. Those poor folks coming in who had no resources, especially the Scots-Irish, went off to the frontier to serve as the frontline against the natives and prepare the way for other elites to come in and setup shop. The war of 1763 brought that somewhat to a halt, but then it resumed again and expansion continued by the good ol United States. The trickery to steal their land, the denial of cultural identity to natives, the wanton rape and murder of the tribes regardless of combatant status, the present second class/underclass identity of natives on their own land is savagery. They did the same thing in Ireland, Kenya, India, Palestine, South Africa, and others I can't mention off the top of my head. This class structure of upper class, working class, underclass is always malleable, changing, allowing for the assimilation of natives and immigrants into Anglosphere countries at the cost of giving up much of their identity and values. And dividing and conquering the subjugated ppls is always effective.
 
CausticScreamer said:
That sounds like one great way of dying of suicide by fifteen gunshot wounds
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This just means it's the right thing to do. :p Without enough wealth to fund economic/social measures meant to solve the plight of the disadvantaged, most relevant measures might as well be the IRL equivalent of those terminally online American teenagers telling white folks in Bulgaria that eating sushi is cultural appropriation, without actually doing shit to better the lives of Japanese-Americans.

So, you either get that wealth via legal means, such as taxes, or you eat the rich outright if the former scenario can't be enacted, distributing choice cuts of billionaire meat to the hood, the rez, and the trailer park alike. :p
 
manav1995 said:
Built on harmony with nature, self sufficiency, and strong local tribes/communities. This culture war is just a way to keep people from waking up and realizing the truth.
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Thats a nice little fantasy you have.

Seriously, how many of the folks here who dream/desire a colapse, are prepared to survive it?

At one point it becomes LARPing.
 
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Sabertooth said:
Thats a nice little fantasy you have.

Seriously, how many of the folks here who dream/desire a colapse, are prepared to survive it?

At one point it becomes LARPing.
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I don't want things to collapse, but unless RFK Jr or Cornel West or some person with metaphorical balls wins the Presidency next year over the duopoly, this country is headed towards some version of collapse a la the scenario laid out here.
 
For those not in the know, RFK Jr. is afflicted by conspiracy brainworms that placed him adjacent to Q-anon on a number of subjects.
 
You know, the discussion of the US military's fighting ability on the last page gave me a thought - what if to avoid having to implement a draft, and to deal with prison overcrowding, they just started funneling the millions caught up in the prison-industrial complex into penal battalions? Possibly alongside a new wave of draconian "Tough on Crime" crackdowns at home.

(sorry if this is still too current politics, I just have a morbid fascination with how our current dystopia might get worse that syncs well with this timeline 🙃)
 
Oleympia said:
You know, the discussion of the US military's fighting ability on the last page gave me a thought - what if to avoid having to implement a draft, and to deal with prison overcrowding, they just started funneling the millions caught up in the prison-industrial complex into penal battalions? Possibly alongside a new wave of draconian "Tough on Crime" crackdowns at home.

(sorry if this is still too current politics, I just have a morbid fascination with how our current dystopia might get worse that syncs well with this timeline 🙃)
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This used to be a thing back in the day, mostly with low-level offenders, they were told enlist or go to jail.

They weren't put into specific penal battalions, just infantry, and it was peacetime. When Vietnam hit, they were a discipline problem.
Penal batallions literally would rebel first chance they got, and we can't put bombs in their head or use commisars (our own military wouldn't accept the role)
 
Using low-level offenders in a war is an excellent way to ensure eventual civil unrest at home, because the ones that survive and return will have every reason to hate the existing order, and will be trained and blooded in the means of overthrowing it.
 
Huh, so that's why they stopped that practice (enlist or go to jail). They used to use it in WW2 and some other conflicts, but Vietnam seems to be the big breaking point (as it was for many societal issues).
 
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