Pretty sure Labyrinth's mental problems are caused by information overload from her power. Unless Taylor can seal away the power itself (which is very doubtful), I don't think she can help much.
An Imago of Rust and Crimson (Worm crossover)
- Thread starter EarthScorpion
- Start date
Pretty sure Labyrinth's mental problems are caused by information overload from her power. Unless Taylor can seal away the power itself (which is very doubtful), I don't think she can help much.
Good News: "I can basically heal any and all mental trauma, possibly some physical trauma as well."
Bad News: "This process is mostly experimental."
Bad News: "This process is mostly experimental."
Multi thread thinking and improving cognitive power are both within Taylor's potential ability. Of course if Labyrinth's powers are actively harming her then being hit with a mind shield might be enough on its own, and that's way less complicated then the other two options. Like all Mage powers the more you come at a problem sideways the less raw power you need. Its a big part of why I enjoy this story so much.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
I really doubt any issue that serious caused by an ongoing power is going to be easy to fix. Taylor isn't the only mental manipulator, she probably isn't even one of the best.
Ridtom
Good. Bad. I'm the man with the Wand.
Honestly, a plot about a Tailor sounds horing from the get-go
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Honestly, a plot about a Tailor sounds horing from the get-go
You were saying?
earthboy
(verified ape)
- Location
- NYC
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"This thread needs more snips."
grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
- Pronouns
- Traditional/Animate
I didn't care about canon Taylor (I read as far as about... 1.06, I think, and packed it in).
I do care about this one.
Nolrai
weak to fangs
- Location
- Porltand
Fair enough. I got a little bit farther, but find fight scenes uninteresting..and most of worm is fight scenes.
A fair assessment if one I'm not quite on board with. In the end something like that will be as hard or as easy as plot demands. I think part of it is that I'm approaching it from the MtA side of the equation. One of the big things you pick up from that side is that so long as the Mage has power they are the apex predator of their setting and the only things they can't do in their realm of influence are things specifically denied to them. From that perspective can't doesn't even register properly. Not thinking of it in the first place does though.
It's good to remember that this fic is a massive AU. Canon of M:tAw applies about as much as canon of Worm, and given how many details were changed on that side of the equation...
As a general rule, I thin the assumptions should be based on what we see in the fic itself rather than source materials.
As for the Labyrinth's condition... Narratively, I rather doubt it would be easy to fix. Not without some sort of heavy price and consequences attached.
Casual healing is kind of anathema to horror in general. Casual mental healing, even more so. Given ES's decision not to lay out Taylor's stats is at least partially predicated on a desire to promote perturbation *, I'd lay long odds that our protagonist possessing a proper panacea is a pipe dream.
On an unrelated note, were any fan splats mined for themes? I'm a fan of Genius: the Transgression, and while the "nobody is in charge" theme can clash with NWO styles conspiracies**, the theme of isolation could map well to Tinkers.
How remarkable would the sight of a tinker flipping a table and screaming "it just works okay?" at a normal engineer during tinkerfab reverse engineering sessions be?
*Partially predicated was an accident, but after that I couldn't resist
**Not actually mutually exclusive, works best when none of the conspiracies actually has the upper hand.
On an unrelated note, were any fan splats mined for themes? I'm a fan of Genius: the Transgression, and while the "nobody is in charge" theme can clash with NWO styles conspiracies**, the theme of isolation could map well to Tinkers.
How remarkable would the sight of a tinker flipping a table and screaming "it just works okay?" at a normal engineer during tinkerfab reverse engineering sessions be?
*Partially predicated was an accident, but after that I couldn't resist
**Not actually mutually exclusive, works best when none of the conspiracies actually has the upper hand.
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Without a single smallest hint of doubt or remorse, I can tell you with certainty that you're more likely to see Princess than you are to see Genius in any shape or form. And that's not a declaration that you're going to see Princess [1] [2]. That's a statement that I detest Genius, at both a thematic and a mechanical level and because it was written by someone upset that Mage: the Awakening is a game about... uh, mages and thus doesn't support mad scientists (and boy, does it show).
But more seriously, back on topic some of you may poooooooossibly have noticed that quite a bit of Imago is a reaction to large amounts of Worm - and also to the Worm fanfic community too. While it would be of course horribly pretentious to describe it as the Watchmen of the Worm fanfic community, it is deliberately and stylistically an homage to that kind of cynical British-written comic (especially Watchmen and the V for Vendetta graphic novel [3]). Hence, yes, one of my targets is what I see as the over-focus on Tinkers and 'teching up'. Of course, that's far from a surprise considering the fanbase common to SV and SB alike, but - well, I am a contrary sort.
Hence (to slowly circle back around to your point) , you might have noticed one of the net effects of breaking down the "Tinker" phenomenon into "smart guys with hard limits" and "bullshit magic guys" has been to ironically de-emphasise them even as they're woven more into the setting. Because I have been explicit about the power divide, it means that the guys who make tinkerfab don't really register as superheroes largely. Because why would you want to get dressed up in tights and fight crime when you could be paid by people to design things and then help teams take them apart and work out how you did that? Tinkerfab is entirely susceptible to mundane enquiry, and... uh, doesn't actually really require you to use it. So people who make tinkerfab largely don't have that problem. If they're not working for the government or a megacorp, that's entirely their choice [4].
Meanwhile, tinkertech guys? They're fuelled by bullshit, just like any other parahuman and thus they have the same constraints. If it's not acceptable for any other person to have a power which would knock the moon out of orbit then it's not acceptable for someone to build tinkertech which does it, etc etc. In fact, people who can make tinkertech effectively pay a cost for their versatility.
So to put it another way, I'm not really that interested in the Tinker exultation common to the fandom, and so write to de-focus from them. It's quite a change, right? And that is why I have no interest in Tinker themes of isolation - not least because Taylor is currently taking those themes of isolation and literally wearing them as a cloud of human-headed rust butterflies.
... yeah, this post was pretty incoherent and I lost my chain of thought in several bits. Oh well.
[1] Dammit canon!Taylor, why do you only appear to have taken the Invocations of the Twilight Queens?
[2] Even if the idea of Tuxedo Lung and his team of leg-breaking, tattooed magical girls who are about to punish you in the name of the Moon because you didn't show them proper respect does have a certain allure.
[3] Not the film - it was different in quite important and significant ways, especially in the role of V. The graphic novel was anarchism (or maybe just plain anarchy) vs fascism; the film was freedom vs fascism, and the two are far from synonymous.
[4] Naturally, a fair few don't - my narrative demands back-alley weapons dealers and the like so better-off criminals can get their blinged up weapons. But even then, they're typically suppliers.
Ridtom
Good. Bad. I'm the man with the Wand.
You kind of lost me around the middle there (Big words and British things do that to my American Brain
) but from what I gather, yours is.... not a parody per se, but sort of a deconstruction/breakdown of fanon ideals of Tinker Tech (which doesn't match canon) and canon Tinker Tech?Thus the huge technological desparity (or is that a result of the fusion/crossover/AU?) and different take on how the power works with Tinker Fab and Tinker Tech (or is that also a result of the AU)?
While I don't agree with "fairness" among power sets and Tinker Tech when it comes to limits (Moon Driver) or how the Tinkers would prefer to stay cooped up (Wildbow actually explained how they get inspiration from going out in the field and cooping themselves up is not so good an idea), I find your setting and changes interesting enough that it has my attention and would like to see what else you have changed/modified within the setting.
Basically, don't agree with the reasoning, but I very much enjoy the end result.
I had sort of figured that the issues of tinkers wouldn't be front and center. That's why I thought it was safe* to ask about.
You draw a distinction between tinkers that create 'fab and those that create 'tech. From earlier discussion, i thought it all started as 'tech, then some items got reverse engineered into 'fab.
Edit: and that sometimes 'fab requires 'tech facilities to create on any scale. Is that the difference being referenced?
Regarding Genius: I'm not good at judging mechanics**, but i think the setting can be salvaged if you kill*** the Peerage, ditch**** everthing involving bardos/manes, and focus on the implications of Jabir, Havok, Beholden[5] and Illumination[6]. Take it more in a Promthean direction I guess.
* probably not going to figure prominently, probably not going to contain spoilers, but you might have put some thought into t in worldbuilding
** except Jabir. A -1 penalty fails utterly at conveying how traumatizing trying to explain their ideas should be to a Genius. Maybe some sort of limit mechanic, where you can only be rejected so many times before you have to kidnap someone and swap brains with them just to prove you can.
*** in a game where you are alone and no-one can understand you, finding the decaying ruins of a world where you would have been accepted can be great fun
**** flying off into a sf fantasy world is not exactly conductive to isolation. Well, unless you find some way to drive home that it isn't real.
[5] why yes, you can have minions who understand you and think you are pretty and popular. You just have to burn out their ability to have a worldview of their own anymore.
[6] you are just a conduit for some otherworldly source of inspiration, clinging desperately to your connections to a world that thinks you are nuts lest it burn away all that makes you you.
Aaaaaand i went a little off topic with the footnotes. Sorry.
You draw a distinction between tinkers that create 'fab and those that create 'tech. From earlier discussion, i thought it all started as 'tech, then some items got reverse engineered into 'fab.
Edit: and that sometimes 'fab requires 'tech facilities to create on any scale. Is that the difference being referenced?
Regarding Genius: I'm not good at judging mechanics**, but i think the setting can be salvaged if you kill*** the Peerage, ditch**** everthing involving bardos/manes, and focus on the implications of Jabir, Havok, Beholden[5] and Illumination[6]. Take it more in a Promthean direction I guess.
* probably not going to figure prominently, probably not going to contain spoilers, but you might have put some thought into t in worldbuilding
** except Jabir. A -1 penalty fails utterly at conveying how traumatizing trying to explain their ideas should be to a Genius. Maybe some sort of limit mechanic, where you can only be rejected so many times before you have to kidnap someone and swap brains with them just to prove you can.
*** in a game where you are alone and no-one can understand you, finding the decaying ruins of a world where you would have been accepted can be great fun
**** flying off into a sf fantasy world is not exactly conductive to isolation. Well, unless you find some way to drive home that it isn't real.
[5] why yes, you can have minions who understand you and think you are pretty and popular. You just have to burn out their ability to have a worldview of their own anymore.
[6] you are just a conduit for some otherworldly source of inspiration, clinging desperately to your connections to a world that thinks you are nuts lest it burn away all that makes you you.
Aaaaaand i went a little off topic with the footnotes. Sorry.
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I wouldn't consider your take on the Worm universe as entirely cynical, but more a logical expansion on what the world already presented with some WoD supernatural elements thrown in for flavour. Wildbow was a victim of his/her own insane schedule, and a lot of the later work felt like piling more on and ignoring what already existed. To use better analogy, it feels like the series has stretches out like an ocean but has the depth of a kiddie pool.
One thing I like best about your take on the superhero deconstruction genre, is that you actually have restraint. Too many of the graphic novels in that genre put the petal to the floor on how much of a crapsack the world is and it ends up coming off like an Itchy and Scratchy cartoon. This is less sexual violence and child murder, and more a natural progression of events, which I am eternally grateful for.
One thing I like best about your take on the superhero deconstruction genre, is that you actually have restraint. Too many of the graphic novels in that genre put the petal to the floor on how much of a crapsack the world is and it ends up coming off like an Itchy and Scratchy cartoon. This is less sexual violence and child murder, and more a natural progression of events, which I am eternally grateful for.
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Ah, I think I may not have been clear enough where the cynicism is directed. The cynicism isn't directed at society - it's directed at the conventions of the genre which Worm attempts to justify and rationalise (its success at doing so when one of the main methods is "the secret conspiracy with one member with the power of Just Winning made it happen" is... questionable).
To put it another way, I turn an eye on the whole "cape vs villain" set up, and go "... so, uh, there are a lot easier ways to earn money - why aren't they doing that?" and "Yeah. Sure. The government is really going to let people get the impression that they can get away with crimes as long as they have a mask on. Damn, if only Al Capone had known that". And as a result, we get a world where the "villains" on the street are usually poor, related to socioeconomic factors, or have mental health problems while the ones who do much, much more damage than them sit in boardrooms, don't need superpowers, and only have to wear tight spandex costumes in the privacy of their own bedroom (and only then if they're into that).
Basically, in the world of Imago, people with superpowers are... just people. And they all have foibles, they all have vices, they all have weaknesses, they all have hopes and dreams and ways they'd like to see the world changed. As a result, the conflicts get stirred up because of human reasons, for better or worse - and on the flip side, people frequently avoid conflict if it doesn't serve their aims in life.
(Clearly Imago must have wasted its budget on the fancy effects for the Other Place. Couldn't afford many flashy fight scenes.)
Ridtom
Good. Bad. I'm the man with the Wand.
There is a canon reason for that, but I'm thinking this is a hypothetical question?
But anyways, I have to ask: what gave you the idea for a straight up fusion than a straight up crossover? I've seen very few people actually do fusions and most seem to prefer single point crossovers.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Hmm how is the escalation of various conflicts that capes can cause handled?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Thats certainly still evident in the political landscape, as shown by such interesting tidbits as the Palestinian president of Jerusalem.
If (part of) your motivation for writing this fic is to react to Worm fanfic conventions, does your goalpost move as the fandom evolves or are you reacting to a specific stage in the Worm fandom life cycle?
Also, I wouldn't compare this fic to Watchmen. Watchmen is a deconstruction of comic books of a certain era and comic book genre conventions in general. It exists to point out why comic book logic doesn't work. Your focus isn't quite as narrow. Your Taylor isn't a reaction to any specific character (unlike the Watchmen characters), and you have her doing her own thing.
Most of this fic seems to be world-building and character development, with a much lesser focus on plot development. Rather than showing why Worm (fandom) conventions don't work, you're creating an alternative to the Worm superhero setting.
In my opinion.
Also, I wouldn't compare this fic to Watchmen. Watchmen is a deconstruction of comic books of a certain era and comic book genre conventions in general. It exists to point out why comic book logic doesn't work. Your focus isn't quite as narrow. Your Taylor isn't a reaction to any specific character (unlike the Watchmen characters), and you have her doing her own thing.
Most of this fic seems to be world-building and character development, with a much lesser focus on plot development. Rather than showing why Worm (fandom) conventions don't work, you're creating an alternative to the Worm superhero setting.
In my opinion.
Interesting. Like TeaSpoon said, it seems like you're building an alternate to the Worm setting, rather than showing how the conventions it uses don't work. Part of why it seems this way is that you're not directly responding to Worm's most basic justifications.
Your central conceit- that parahumans are "just people"- is directly rejected by Worm. Parahumans are disturbed people. They're suicidal, riddled with guilt, abandoned, lonely, angry at the world, depressed, traumatized, have dysfunctional philosophies (law of the jungle, for example)socially awkward, bullied, or just screwed up. Imago does not address this rather central fact- rather, it ignores it in favor of more ordinary superheroes. As a result, the deconstruction of Worm...isn't.
A similar issue occurs with the Endbringers. In Worm, a Endbringer attacks happen with little to no warning. While not explicit, this justified the lack of military involvement; they simply can't move fast enough. For the military to take the lead against the Endbringers, either there is massive amounts of military buildup so that the military can deploy at a moment's notice, or the Endbringers give more warning than in canon, so the military has more time to organize and respond. The first, as I pointed out a few pages ago, is prohibitively expensive, to the point where the situation in canon Worm makes more sense. The second makes more sense, but is a departure from Worm.
In both cases, Worm's justifications for the World-as-is are simply ignored in favor of more easily creating a world more to EarthScorpion's liking.
Hence, I agree with TeaSpoon in that Imago is an alternative to Worm, rather than a deconstruction of it.
In short, Worm takes the starting superhero set-up and asks "How could it work?", While Imago takes the same material and asks "What would it really be like?"
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Ridtom
Good. Bad. I'm the man with the Wand.
This is all insightful thinking - whether I agree with it or not - and is quite enjoyable even if it goes a bit over my head.
But I'd like to plainly state that I like the fic so far, mainly because having Taylor Herbert play some kind of broken mixture of Constantine/Rorscach/The Question and fumbling about is hilarious.
Depressing on occasion when she hits her lows, but hilarious nonetheless.
But I'd like to plainly state that I like the fic so far, mainly because having Taylor Herbert play some kind of broken mixture of Constantine/Rorscach/The Question and fumbling about is hilarious.
Depressing on occasion when she hits her lows, but hilarious nonetheless.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Well, the issue here is that in Worm, everyone who's not a parahuman sees two things:
a) That there are people who had One Bad Day and promptly went crazy to one degree or another
b) That these people also have ridiculous super powers
And respond by... not offering them therapy. Or actual support groups, or anything. Which is less because Cauldron did it* and more because Wildbow has (or had) serious issues with the idea of competent or (even self-beneficially) altruistic authority. I mean, we are talking about a setup where the government-funded child paramilitary group has to actively request therapy to get any after multiple members are slaughtered by Godzilla and they've spent weeks patrolling a post-apocalyptic shithole dominated by gangbangers and refugees. This is not a real place we are talking about, here.
*though god knows the fans lean on that pillar pretty hard for everything else - "there is a conspiracy that can do pretty much anything, but unfortunately it is made up exclusively of really stupid people" is a usable out, but not a great one