I like how you censored the word "clusterf---'
America First: What if the Trump/Vance Administration handled the Second World War?
- Thread starter E350
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With the caveat that Churchill's likely to be either ousted or coup'd sooner or later; at the very least Anglo-Soviet relations might improve due to shared rage at America
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Considering America's trajectory here, hating the British might actually be a reason for him to get promoted. Having said that, I can't help but wonder if SecNav is going to be someone like Kirsti Noem, who otherwise would be out of a job (due to a lack of a Department of Homeland Security).
If things continue in this direction, Britain might dip from the war and come out bloodied and angry. What happens from there...I dunno.
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And a question of my own. Republicans in congress have been replaced with their up-time counterparts, while the Democrats remain their 40s equivalents. But what of the overlapping boundaries? Say, seats that had been Republican in 1940 but are Democratic by the 2020s? Or likewise, seats that may not have existed, or have been moved around?
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It already happened - Francis Perkins was Secretary of Labor for the entire Roosevelt administration OTL, and for both terms ITL.
Nevermind, I had forgotten about that
That's an actual quote, actually. Or at least it's said to be. He said it before his breakdown at the start of the invasion.
Even if they don't go north immediately, a declaration of neutrality or an agreement creates strategic ambiguity. Enough ambiguity, say, that the Red Army doesn't feel like it can move its troops in the east...
Oh ho ho, thank you very much for that suggestion! I'll be sure to let Admiral King know who to thank for his promotion. (Although I will have to work out a way to get him in the post - maybe they could claim it as an 'emergency temporary appointment?')
Funny you should mention a coup...
Good People on All Sides (July 1941)
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Good People on All Sides
July 1941BISMARCK, PRINZ EUGEN BOMBED IN HARBOUR
BREST, July 2 1941 – The RAF has somewhat avenged their failure to catch the Bismarck by bombing the harbour of Brest in France, causing slight damage to the battleship. Prinz Eugen suffered a more serious hit, and is believed to be out of action for the foreseeable future.
In their attack, the British bombers dropped significant ordnance on innocent French citizens in the town of Brest… [published in America Daily]
"This just in from Hollywood… Warner Brothers has pulled the release of the film Sergeant York at the request of the Office of Censorship. Apparently, senior figures in the administration were concerned that the film could be considered too 'anti-German' in a time when President Trump is trying to lower tensions. It should be noted that the Office of Censorship has no authority to pull a film's release, and that this appears to a voluntary action by Warner Brothers…" – NBC Radio News, 3 July 1941
"This war with fascist Germany cannot be considered an ordinary war. It is not only a war between two armies, it is also a great war of the entire Soviet people against the German fascist forces. The aim of this national war in defense of our country against the fascist oppressors is not only elimination of the danger hanging over our country, but also aid to all European peoples groaning under the yoke of German fascism…" – Josef Stalin, radio address, July 3 1941
"On this great day, this Independence Day, this beautiful holiday… and it is a beautiful holiday, folks, such a beautiful holiday… we need to remember what our Founders wanted for our country. We need to maintain the republic… republic, folks, such a beautiful word… we need to maintain the republic they created at all costs. And you all remember, people, who the Founding Fathers were fighting…" – Donald Trump, 4th of July address.
GERMANS REACH SMOLENSK
SMOLENSK, July 7 1941 – There is heavy fighting around the Soviet city of Smolensk as German forces aim to encircle the city. Villages across the region have seen the spectre of communism lifted as the advance units of panzer troops arrived… [published in America Daily]
[An photograph in a small village, taken in early July 1941. Two German officers are reading a translated copy of America Daily provided by Goebbels' propaganda office; the one holding the paper is visibly laughing. The other carries a Walther pistol in his right hand, and there's faint smoke wafting from the barrel. Next to them, a Soviet commissar lies dead, face down in the mud. In the middle distance, there's a halftrack, and behind it a house is on fire.]
Conversation between Trump, Vance, Musk and Rubio, secretly recorded on order of Director Hoover (July 10 1941)
RUBIO: …the cables we've intercepted would seem to indicate that Churchill and Stalin are seeking some kind of arrangement.
VANCE: If he gets into bed with the Bolsheviks, that's gonna keep our job of keeping outta the war easier.
RUBIO: Hmm.
MUSK: Are the Soviets still trying to buy supplies off us?
RUBIO: Yes, but I've been firm. As the President instructed, we're not selling to the Russians.
TRUMP: Even civilians.
RUBIO: Uh, yes, we know of a few companies that have tried to sell trucks to the Russians, but, uh, we've been stonewalling them. We could make it more official…
TRUMP: An arms embargo.
RUBIO: Yes. We have a few companies supplying to the Brits, though. They bought a bunch of Thompsons from Colt. If we block the Soviets and not England, it's gonna look…
MUSK: Cut off everyone.
RUBIO: Hmm?
MUSK: No strategic materials over the Atlantic. No guns, no coal, no oil. Cut 'em off. Actually, cut food too. It won't mean a thing to Germany but it'll strangle Britain.
RUBIO: …Mr. Musk, aren't we meant to be neutral?
MUSK: [Laughs.] That's what we tell the papers.
VANCE: [clears throat] We'll go for war material now. Broad brush, no selling to belligerents in Europe.
TRUMP: What about Asia?
RUBIO: The Japanese Ambassador's actually been in contact. He has an interesting proposition…
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered:
No war materials of any kind, nor any raw materials that may be used to manufacture or operate weapons of war, are to be shipped from the United States to any of the belligerent powers in Europe, or to any of their territories in the Western Hemisphere, up to and including the Dominion of Canada…
– Executive Order, July 13 1941
AS A RESULT OF RECENT US POLICY WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO HUSBAND OUR RESOURCES STOP
THERE CAN BE NO SIGNIFICANT SUPPLY CONVOYS TO THE SOVIET UNION AT THIS TIME STOP
– Cable from London to Moscow, July 13 1941
14 July 1941. News from London and War Office grim. Pug tells me PM in deep funk regarding new US trade decision. Rumour going round at Whitehall that he was sitting in a chair at Chequers last night with revolver in lap. Lunch with Raymond Lee, US military attache; says he cannot understand what Trump is thinking…
– General Alan Brooke, his diary, July 14 1941
Conversation between Trump, Vance and Ambassador Lord Halifax, secretly recorded on order of Director Hoover (June 15 1941)
HALIFAX: The Prime Minister has been very firm; he is keen to meet with you and is ready to do so at the time and place of your choosing.
TRUMP: He has no cards.
HALIFAX: I… we are aware of that, Mr. President. We are… we are willing to discuss whatever conditions you may choose to place on aid.
VANCE: And an end to the war?
HALIFAX: …
VANCE: Well?
HALIFAX: Everything is on the table, Mr. Vice-President. But you must understand, we can't simply surrender to the Germans.
TRUMP: …well, we'll talk about that. We'll pencil him in for… August. We'll do August. Right here, in the White House.
HALIFAX: I will let my government know.
LIST OF REJECTED HEADLINES, JULY 21 1941
BY ORDER OF THE DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF CENSORSHIP, MR. E. MUSK
BY ORDER OF THE DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF CENSORSHIP, MR. E. MUSK
'BBC Broadcast Inspires Europeans To Guerilla Action.' (consider changing to 'Britain Incities Insurrection' or dropping story)
'Luftwaffe Bombs Moscow.' (highlighting so-called 'atrocities' against communists does not align with the national zeitgeist at this time)
'Anglo-Australian Commando Raid Succeeds At Tobruk.' (too pro-British)
'A View From The Frontline In China.' (administration aiming to soften tensions in Asia, this does not help)
FRENCH INDOCHINESE AUTHORITIES ALLOW JAPANESE TROOPS TO ENTER
Conversation between Trump, Musk and Ambassador Nomura, secretly recorded on order of Director Hoover (July 22 1941)
Conversation between Trump, Musk and Ambassador Nomura, secretly recorded on order of Director Hoover (July 22 1941)
NOMURA: I must say, this is all a rather pleasant surprise. Six months ago, we had thought war was inevitable…
MUSK: We, uh, believe that neither of us stand to gain from a general war in the Pacific, ambassador.
TRUMP: You'll get your oil, ambassador – if you keep up your end of the bargain.
NOMURA: My government is very happy to sign this non aggression pact you have suggested. You understand, of course, that we will still need to seek raw materials elsewhere?
MUSK: Sure. Go into the Dutch East Indies. Go into Malaya. Just… this is off the record, just to be clear.
NOMURA: Of course.
MUSK: Maybe we might come in to [clears throat] save Australia at the end of your advance. Nothing fancy, just a few battleships, we can do a little sabre rattling for the papers if you want, and then…
TRUMP: …then they're indebted to us.
MUSK: And we squeeze 'em for their minerals.
NOMURA: Japan has no real interest in conquering Australia, Mr. President. You can do as you will. Of course, we are not totally decided on our strategic pathway just now. We may yet move north.
MUSK: If you could do that, I'd kiss you myself.
EXECUTIVE ORDER EXTENDS TRADE EMBARGO TO ANGLO-DUTCH ASIA-PACIFIC POSSESSIONS
"The strategic situation has changed dramatically over the past few months. I therefore have no choice but to return to London and argue Australia's position. We cannot have Australian soldiers dying for no strategic gain."
"Rubbish! He just wants to be there to help stab Churchill in the back!"
– Australian Prime Minister R. G. Menzies and anonymous Labor backbencher, July 26 1941
"News in from Moscow – the Huns have closed the trap on Smolensk."
"How many got out?"
"About fifty thousand. One hundred thousand remained trapped."
"Good god! If we had such casualties, there'd be a revolution!"
– conversation in the War Office, July 27 1941
Never you mind the Stukas, nor the artillery,
The Yankees have said they're coming to spread their liberty,
No one knows when they'll get here, but when they do they'll see,
We'll hurl 'em back the same way that we did with Italy!
…Oh, oh, oh it's a lovely war,
What do we want with Yankee spam,
When we've got plum and apple jam,
Form fours, right turn, how do we spend the money we earn,
Oh, oh, oh it's a lovely war!
– adaptation of First World War song heard in the trenches at Tobruk, July 1941
Even with the era it's in, it occurs that Trump can only ride ride the warhorse of white racial grievances so far before his domestic/economic policies run into issues.
It terrifies me that Stalin, Churchill and Hoover are the only sane people in the equation.
It terrifies me that Stalin, Churchill and Hoover are the only sane people in the equation.
It's Churchover
The Atlantic theatre seems basically won
The Atlantic theatre seems basically won
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Nazi Germany absolutely wouldn't be able to win, but we can say that with the benefit of hindsight. It's impossible for the Soviets to surrender, but the UK just might. God knows what sort of peace terms the Axis would try to extract, though.
Betting my money on Europe becoming a smoking, war-exhausted ruin. Nazi Germany was too incompetent to win but without supplies, Soviets and British are too weak. The whole war will just end up as a stalemate till both Allies and Axis collapse. I can see only Japan succeeding and forming their "co"-prosperity sphere in East Asia.
The Nazis had let the mask drop sufficiently, and Stalin had if nothing else been sufficiently decimate-y, that I can't see anyone in the red army, party or NKVD being able to pull off a coup; even if the USSR faces invasion from Japan and/or Turkey/Iran.
And unlike Steiner, General Winter will make itself known.
And unlike Steiner, General Winter will make itself known.
I don't know enough about World War II in the specifics to comment on history, what the butterflies of this timeline would be, and so forth, but:
@E350 I love the way you're presenting this story, using 'in-universe' documents. It creates this vibe of a documentary or a historian picking through (the rubble of?) civilisation and piecing things together. It's historiography which I remember really findig fascinating back when I studied history at school, so I figured it was worth calling out: even aside from the actual history side, you've done a marvellous job of making something which is just engaging to read and follow along with.
@E350 I love the way you're presenting this story, using 'in-universe' documents. It creates this vibe of a documentary or a historian picking through (the rubble of?) civilisation and piecing things together. It's historiography which I remember really findig fascinating back when I studied history at school, so I figured it was worth calling out: even aside from the actual history side, you've done a marvellous job of making something which is just engaging to read and follow along with.
Thank fuck for Hoover's paranoia and arrogance.
It felt unclean typing that.
It felt unclean typing that.
Herbert Hoover or J. Edgar hoover?
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J Edgar, probably, as he's the notoriously powerful and paranoid founder of the FBI who blackmailed every president from Truman to Nixon. Presumably, while he's entrenched himself here, Hoover hasn't yet reached the heights of power he'd reach during the Cold War OTL, and Trump's brainworms about "woke DEI FBI" would keep him empowering the FBI like Roosevelt did. One the one hand, that's good, because that means the CPUSA and civil rights movement and so forth won't be crippled by COINTELPRO- Hoover was first and foremost an anti-communist, after all. On the other, the United States is absolutely going to become a playground for the Abwehr and Kempeitai.
Herbert Hoover should still be alive, and would align pretty well with Trump's public programs: America First, pro-appeasement, anti-New Deal, et cetera. However, if he tries to organize any private relief programs to Belgium or Poland like he did OTL, Herbert Hoover might still end up on the White House's bad side. Personally, I give it a 50/50 shot whether Trump brings Hoover into the administration in some way, or just leaves him out in the cold.
Good runup, especially the mention of the axis powers' two intelligence agencies
I was more taking about the fact that Hoover's desire to get blackmail on Trump means that there will be a record of just how dirty Trump's double dealings are.
I assume that Trump's probably going to make a move on the British, French and Dutch holdings in the Caribbean and South America then?
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Turkey will probably keep out of the war, if only because Von Papen's such a coil of shit that the Kemalists have no time for him; but Franco will probably move on Portugal or Gibraltar sooner or later.
As an Irishman: Dev, now would be an excellent time to not be a shit and cuddle up to the Axis.
I assume that Trump's probably going to make a move on the British, French and Dutch holdings in the Caribbean and South America then?
Edit:
Turkey will probably keep out of the war, if only because Von Papen's such a coil of shit that the Kemalists have no time for him; but Franco will probably move on Portugal or Gibraltar sooner or later.
As an Irishman: Dev, now would be an excellent time to not be a shit and cuddle up to the Axis.
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Isn't the USA actually.. fairly mediocre military and industry wise at this point in time?
A lot of their gains in tech came out of stuff the UK gave them as part of deals and trades for more support if I remember right? And obviously that isn't happening here.
I feel like the USA in this trajectory is going to be much, much weaker than OTL USA after the war.
A lot of their gains in tech came out of stuff the UK gave them as part of deals and trades for more support if I remember right? And obviously that isn't happening here.
I feel like the USA in this trajectory is going to be much, much weaker than OTL USA after the war.
Assuming Trump's life goes similarly to OTL with a few adjustments (such as The Apprentice being a radio show), the answer is probably yes.
He'd just be Great Gatsby.
You say that, but who knows what Hoover's angle is here?
Vis-a-vis the Soviets, I do agree that it's impossible for the Axis to reach the A-A line, but I do wonder if they might be able to grind the Soviets into a peace deal on somewhat favorable terms. I admit I'm not a huge expert on the Soviet war effort, and it would a future thing, of course, and this TL, for now, is focused around 1941, and the war in the east absolutely won't be over by the end of the year. I don't think that's too much of a spoiler.
Thank you very much! I've been having a lot of fun (well, dark fun) putting all of this together. I love reading primary sources, so I wanted to give the vibe of something that's a collection of those.
In some form, yes, and it is still probably ghostwritten.
The US is still rearming, although not as well. Trump's sort of piggy backing off existing Roosevelt admin trajectory, and between him, Vance and Hegseth there's enough of a military fetish for that to still happen. However, it's not going at anywhere near the same pace, and they are missing things Britain would have given them (no Rolls-Royce engines for the Mustang, for example), and it's all subject to the Trumpian whim (for example, prioritization of the M3 and M6 over the Sherman because Trump believes more guns = better.)
You Have No Cards (August 1941)
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You Have No Cards
MEETING WITH CHURCHILL TO GO AHEAD
WASHINGTON DC, August 3 1941 – The President has announced a face-to-face meeting with Prime Minister Winston Churchill to go ahead on August 10.
Mr. Trump has declared his intent to 'hammer out a deal' to end the war in Europe, and has expressed a desire to meet with the German dictator, Adolf Hitler, later in the year…
Meeting between Hitler and Generals von Bock, Guderian and Hoth, Wolf's Lair, August 4 1941
GUDERIAN: …we need to launch an offensive against Moscow as quickly as possible. Our forces can be ready by 20th of April, and…
HITLER: No. We must deal with these pockets, clear up the Ukraine. The destruction of the Soviet army must be our top priority.
GUDERIAN: Mein Fuhrer, if I can make a suggestion…
HITLER: We must destroy their armies in decisive battle…
GUDERIAN: …if we were to capture Moscow in short order, combined with the pressure from America, it may serve to convince the British to seek terms.
HITLER: No. My orders are final, we will delay the push on Moscow. The Ukraine must be secured.
HOTH: Mein Fuhrer, some of the Americans have been in contact, they say…
HITLER: The Americans do not dictate German policy! They do not!
[brief pause]
HITLER: We will reduce the Soviet pockets and secure the Ukraine. Only then do we push to Moscow. Understood?
GUDERIAN: Yes, mein fuhrer.
"This is the BBC Home Service. The Prime Minister has departed for Washington. His route is classified by the War Office but he is expected in the American capital in a few days. Shortly after his departure, Australian Prime Minister Mr. R. G. Menzies landed at Heathrow to participate in grand strategic talks in the capital…" – BBC Home Service, August 6 1941
CHURCHILL AND KING MEET
OTTAWA, August 8th 1941 – In a brief stopover on his way to Washington, Winston Churchill met with Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King in a show of solidarity between Great Britain and Canada.
After meeting with King behind closed doors, Mr. Churchill briefly addressed the House of Commons. He apologized for the brevity of his speech, but stated his intent to present to President Trump the clear and present dangers a Nazi-dominated Europe would pose to the western hemisphere, and would speak up for both British and Commonwealth interests.
Mr. Churchill departed Ottawa by aeroplane this afternoon, headed for Washington…
'AMERICA FIRST' ACTIVISTS ARRIVE IN WASHINGTON
WASHINGTON DC, August 9th 1941 – Charles Lindbergh and Father Charles Coughlin were among a number of delegates to visit the White House for a private dinner with the Vice-President this evening.
Father Coughlin, who has faced increasing pressure from Archbishop Mooney, waved for the cameras as he and Lindbergh walked side by side into the White House. The two men, among others, have been the public face of the America First movement, with Coughlin's successful public speaking tour and Lindbergh's controversial but popular America Daily newspaper attributed as having brought anti-war, pro-German and anti-British sentiment to the record high reported in a Gallop poll last week…
"...I can see Mr. Churchill's limousine pulling up in front of the White House. I can see the President and Vice-President are waiting for him – as you may recall, Secretary Rubio, Mr. Musk and Mr. Lindbergh have already been seen entering this morning. I… yes, there he is. He appears to be wearing a siren suit, a garment that he has helped to popularise in England… uh… he has shaken hands with Mr. Trump, it seems to be starting out well. Remember now, there will be a press conference after their meeting, so we will know what was said shortly… hold on? What was that?"
"I don't know if you heard that, but I've just been told that there will be cameras in the Oval Office – it appears this meeting will be, uh, televised. If you own a television, that's certainly something to look forward to, and if not, we will surely air the audio…" – NBC reporter, White House lawn, August 10 1941
Footage of meeting between Trump, Vance, Rubio, Musk and Churchill, August 10 1941 (Unedited copy)
TRUMP: [inaudible]
CHURCHILL: I understand, I am not asking for American boys to fight, we simply need–
VANCE: You walk here, you don't even bother to wear a suit–
CHURCHILL: I wanted to impress–
VANCE: –you don't even wear a suit to meet the President of the United States, which is extremely disrespectful–
CHURCHILL: –I am a war leader, Mr. Vance, I–
VANCE: –and you ask us for millions, billions of dollars to bail out your bankrupt enterprise–
CHURCHILL: Mr. Vance–
VANCE: –without any indication that you intend to pay us back, or even say thank you–
CHURCHILL: Mr. Vance, I–
VANCE: –like you never did for those destroyers we gave you–
CHURCHILL: Will you stop interrupting me while I am interrupting you?!
[Vance visibly recoils. Churchill takes a breath.]
CHURCHILL: Mr. President, everything you send will be paid back in full. Give us the tools, sir, and we will finish the job. It is…
TRUMP: You can't guarantee that.
CHURCHILL: …it is in America's interest that the Narzee menace is defeated, and that…
TRUMP: We can do business with Hitler just as easy as with you. Easier, probably, easier.
CHURCHILL: …and that Europe is secured for democracy. Think, Mr. President! Think of our common kinship, our years, decades of shared democratic development. Think of the horrors that will be inflicted if the light of liberty is allowed to go out–
MUSK: Do you expect the American people to believe that? It might fly in England, but over here, we know… this… this is just about empire. It does not…
CHURCHILL: Mr. Musk–
MUSK: It does not materially affect the United States if the British Empire dominates Europe or if the German one does.
CHURCHILL: You cannot be so cynical, so bereft of ideals–
MUSK: You can tell that to your masters too.
[Long silence – Rubio looks like something inside of him has died while Churchill stares in visible confusion.]
CHURCHILL: Mr. President, name your price.
[Trump and Vance exchange glances, and Trump slips a piece of paper over the table. Churchill lifts it up, looking it over.]
TRUMP: That's our opening offer. It's the best you're going to get.
[Churchill stares it over. He gets up, looking Trump straight in the eye.]
CHURCHILL: If you think this… piratical enterprise you have embarked upon will save you when Hitler gobbles us all up, you are very sorely mistaken.
VANCE: Take it or leave it.
[Churchill furrows his brow.]
CHURCHILL: Very well. Alone.
[Churchill storms out of the room, his delegation following somewhat nervously. Trump sits back in his chair, while Vance glances over to Musk.]
VANCE: We'll need to edit this. Maybe only release the audio. You know how to work this shit out…
CHURCHILL STORMS OUT OF MEETING
"If Weird Winston wants to negotiate like an adult, my door's still open. Until then, he can go back home and think on it. He better think quickly though…" – Donald Trump, to reporters outside the White House, August 10 1941.
10 August 1941. News from Washington very bad. Winston's party seems to indicate that the Americans asked for some sort of territorial concession from Canada or in the Caribbean, but it's all garbled at the moment.
Have spoken to Beaverbrook, Astor and Hankey. Action must be taken, although we must ensure we have support in the Commons and from the King before we move. Menzies unstained by pre-war appeasement or by association with War Cabinet. Would be a good interim leader while peace arranged.
– Diary of David Lloyd George, August 10 1941
STRIKE ENDS
DEARBORN, August 13 1941 – After months of strike action, the UAW has agreed to return to work.
The strike had been flagging for most of last month as voluntary labour took over from striking factory workers. Inspired by the call from patriotic outlets – including this paper – young men travelled to Michigan to take over the work, taking home hefty pay packets from a grateful Henry Ford. Now that the strikers are back to work, these men are free to return home… [published in America Daily.]
GERMANS REACH KHERSON
LENINGRAD, August 21 1941 – The German Army continues to show its martial prowess in its capture of the city of Kherson… [published in America Daily.]
GERMANS REACH KIEV
KIEV, August 23 1941 – Another week of disaster for the communist forces continues as the first German panzers approach Kiev… [published in America Daily.]
MACKENZIE KING HECKLED
ALDERSHOT, August 24 1941 – Canadian Prime Minister Mackenzie King was heckled today at a speech in front of Canadian soldiers in Britain … clearly the Canadians grow weary of supporting a failing Britain, and wish to return to their homes… [published in America Daily.]
"We did not boo him because we wanted to go home. We booed him because we wanted to go to the front. If America Daily wants to say any different, I can show them exactly where they can shove their opinion." – Canadian soldier, to the BBC, August 25 1941
BRITISH AND SOVIETS INVADE IRAN
TEHRAN, August 26 1941 – Yesterday, in flagrant violation of Iranian neutrality and in contradiction of Winston Churchill's claim to stand for small nations, Soviet and British troops invaded the country… [published in America Daily.]
"WE SHOULD INVADE BRITAIN", SAYS WHEELER
OKLAHOMA CITY, August 30 1941 – In an incendiary speech, Burton K. Wheeler claimed that, should interventionists want to free a country so badly, they ought to 'declare war on Britain to free India.' He was speaking after Charles Lindbergh, who opined that Britain may backstab the United States 'as she has done to France and Finland…'
War Cabinet Meeting, August 30 1941
DILL: …our armed forces have enough material to fight until December, which is about the same time that our monetary reserves run out.
CHURCHILL: We will find a way to fight on. Perhaps we could…
BEAVERBROOK: Winston, we must explore our options. We may have to swallow our pride–
CHURCHILL: Never! I will not sell our country, our empire to Hitler! I will not!
BEAVERBROOK: Winston, you may not have a choice.
AN: I'm going to make a quick note here - there's controversy over whether or not Lloyd-George and friends seriously considered Menzies as a replacement for Churchill. I'm going with Joan Boaumont's interpretation that they were, because I respect her a lot as a historian and because it creates more dramatic tension for the story, but it's worth pointing out that Lloyd-George had something of a tendacy to use 'colonials' as a stick to beat his political enemies with (for example, claiming he wanted to replace Haig with Monash in his memoirs - there's no evidence that he ever considered it at the moment.)
Oh, and I'd better include the David Low cartoon I had Churchill quote.
(well, alone plus the empire plus the Free French, Czechs, Poles, etc, etc, etc...)
I am not remotely surprised that Lloyd-George is that much of a shit
If Trump was elected US President in 1940, he'd absolutely not name Marco Rubio secretary of state.