OH FUCK. Muskrat causing America to just not do the oil embargo is a factor I did not consider. I figured racism would make them do somethingf to the ascending asian power but lust for cash has worked around it this time.
By the way, what is downtime!Elon Musk's main business grift? Electric cars and stupid network gadgets don't work so well in the 1940s.
so Bismark survives, granted it still isn't safe in Brest as historically the flotilla stationed in Brest was subject to bomber attacks from southern England and they did get a few lucky bombs in causing the flotilla to be pulled out of Brest in December 1941.
Well this is suitably horrifying. But you're right, it is cathartic, in a bleak way, to see how things could be worse, somehow.
I think it'd be interesting to piece together what Trump's overall vision is here. He seems to be his OTL self, with the same prejudices, just shifted into the past instead of a reimagining of what he'd be if he was raised there. This is apparent in his views to Japan, which I assumed would be the "China" to Nazi Germany's Putinist Russia, but instead he keeps his hawkish stance to China here in spite of Japan here being the expansionist power in Asia.
So there's definitely going to be a lot of chaos with him implementing a 2020s far right vision (especially the type of far right Trumpism is) on a 1940s world. I don't think we'll see anything like his support for Netanyahu's Israel (because even the most far right Zionists here are going to hate his guts, aside from possibly the Lehi, and his blatant isolationistic antisemitism and that of his coalition) but I'm just wondering if his hawkishness to Canada and Mexico or his bizarre love for Turkish dictators will come through.
Coughlin is going to get in massive trouble if he goes through with the Lindbergh plan here. Archbishop Mooney ITOL had already told him off, and if he keeps it up he's going to get the same direct order to return to priestly duties and to get off the papers and the airwaves.
Its interesting that Eisenhower either doesn't make General or gets demoted, according to the interview we see of him, but equally interesting is that interview is occurring. In all likelihood we're going to see the censorship board get dismantled at some point.
The Germans are still probably screwed in the long term, though the lack of lend-lease is going to hurt the Soviets and British a lot. While Bismarck staying afloat isn't any good, its not going to be enough to interdict shipping and Britain IIRC is already adopting the convoy system.
Marshall storming off is a shame, especially since that just leaves MacArthur. But even still, its an open question as to how much exactly Mac will be willing to suck up with the President - the man was ambitious and headstrong and is liable to start a fight with the administration at some point, especially if Trump continues to suck up to Imperial Japan just to appease the Germans.
I would doubt it; the ISOT takes place in January 1941, with Robby the Alien Space-Bat retconning peoples' memories accordingly. That attack would've occurred during the respective campaign seasons and been firmly blamed on the RAF. Considering that this timeline's Trump Administration is giving 'equal' attention to British countervalue bombing raids on Germany, Freiburg would likely get lost in the noise as merely one of the first incidents of British 'war-crimes against the peace-loving citizens of Germany'. 🤮
So, the modern day GOP congresscritters have been ISOTed back to 1941, presumably booting any Democrats out of their seats. But, the Dems as a party are still their downtime counterparts, right? Thus, they should have more of a collective spine than modern-day Dems (not that that's hard), and should more regularly push back against the Trump administration.
Granted, my personal hope is for the CPUSA to end up on top. OTL, the current general secretary- Earl Browder- would have co-operated with FDR, and had hopes of turning the party into a pressure group on the Democrats. But here, Trump is being his bullish self, and even if Browder still thought he could pull his revisionist BS, Trump wouldn't release him from jail like Roosevelt did in 1942. God willing, this means the CPUSA as a whole can take a more revolutionary stance.
True, though that does also mean that the British will be going hard into their own atom bomb projects with no other way to win the war. I get the feeling bomber Harris getting the bomb and full permission to do what he likes with it might actually be more dangerous than the results of the Manhatten Project. Very "the Sun never sets on the British Empire, not at the rate we're dropping new ones at least" energy.
Between the Nazis kneecapping their efforts and the Americans simping for the Nazis, the Manhattan Project will surely be British, unless there are military and logistical constraints that would prevent the RAF from deploying its nukes on, say, Berlin.
(That is, of course, if the Brits don't collapse entirely, which it will should the US commit to the war. Easiest way of doing that, of course, is by letting Bomber Harris be Bomber Harris.)
Oil baron? Or car tycoon? Maybe both, barring antitrust laws? In any case, no reason the imperial military would seek to take control of the east Asian seaboard and the Pacific if they know powerful members of this hellpit of an authoritarian admin would be willing to give them this much of a pass.
So, the modern day GOP congresscritters have been ISOTed back to 1941, presumably booting any Democrats out of their seats. But, the Dems as a party are still their downtime counterparts, right? Thus, they should have more of a collective spine than modern-day Dems (not that that's hard), and should more regularly push back against the Trump administration.
Granted, my personal hope is for the CPUSA to end up on top. OTL, the current general secretary- Earl Browder- would have co-operated with FDR, and had hopes of turning the party into a pressure group on the Democrats.
He became an anti-war isolationist because he was licking the USSR's heels during one of it's worst actions, even if people here forgot that, I don't think the man is worth shit aside from being a tankie. He was, quite literally, a Soviet asset.
True, but the Democrats of this era, as a party, did know how to exercise party discipline. Granted, who knows how or if the New Deal coalition will handle the modern day GOP hitting the US political scene like a truck...
Wouldn't most of the Jim Crow Dixiecrats be replaced with Trumpist GOPers in this new timeline? Like, the overlap between the GOP-controlled House seats in 2025 and those seats occupied by Dixiecrats in 1941 should be fairly 1:1.
True, but the Democrats of this era, as a party, did know how to exercise party discipline. Granted, who knows how or if the New Deal coalition will handle the modern day GOP hitting the US political scene like a truck...
Yeah, I think that's going to be a big issue. A major part of modern Dem fumbling is older members thinking back on a (very relatively) more controlled Republican Party. The Democrats here have straight up been dealing with a more reasonable Republican Party until now, and had no previous Trump term (or, even, a Gingrich or McConnell or Hastert era of obstructionist bullshit and distortion), and so may be even more caught off guard.
Wouldn't most of the Jim Crow Dixiecrats be replaced with Trumpist GOPers in this new timeline? Like, the overlap between the GOP-controlled House seats in 2025 and those seats occupied by Dixiecrats in 1941 should be fairly 1:1.
I generally agree, but off the top of my head, that won't be the case for Georgia, which in OTL right now has Ossof and Warnock, two Democrats, while in 1941 there's Russel (a founder and leader of the Conservative Coaltion, and a highly committed segregationist) and Walter F. George (a lesser segregationist, but still one). Though the fact they're supporters of the New Deal will probably incur pushback. Hmmm. It'd be ironic if the Dixiecrats that remain are this timeline's Never Trumper *Republicans.
China was still in the century of humiliation when WWII happened, so I think Trump's xenophobia would focus on Japan, making America enter WWII anyhow, as Pearl Harbor still happens followed by Germany and Italy declaring war on America.
Not to mention he would express admiration for Chiang's ideology and ruling style.
Author's Note: Thanks to everyone for your replies. It's been a long day and I'm a bit too tired to answer them just yet, but I'll endeavour to do so in the morning!
Like Nothing Ever Seen Before
BATTLE FOR CRETE ENDS IN GERMAN VICTORY
HERAKLION, June 1 1941 – The worth of paratroopers – and the German Army's particular talent as using them – have once again been proven as the British Empire has been swept from the shores of Crete.
Thousands of Allied soldiers, mostly Australian and New Zealander, cut a pathetic figure as they were marched through Heraklion today, as out in the countryside, the German and Italian forces began the hard task of suppressing the opportunistic banditry that has broken out in the aftermath of their victory… [published in America Daily]
REPORTS OF MASSACRE AT KONDOMARI BY GERMAN PARATROOPS STOP
MORE THAN FORTY TO FIFTY BELIEVED DEAD STOP
ADDENDUM REPORTS OF ACTIVITY AROUND KANANDOS STOP
WILL ADVISE FURTHER WHEN MORE INFORMATION ARRIVES STOP
– diplomatic cable from the US attache to Athens to Washington, June 3 1941
PLEASE RESTRICT CABLES TO PURELY DIPLOMATIC AFFAIRS STOP
– State Department cable to Athens, June 3 1941
"Have you heard what the English are doing, folks? They've invaded Iraq. Iraq! Neutral Iraq, just because they wanted to be friends with the Germans. I'll tell you, people, this isn't a good versus evil conflict, it's really not…" – President Trump, 'radio chat', June 4 1941
"Mr. President, Winston Churchill stated in a recent radio speech that he wished to speak to you. Will you be meeting him?"
"We'll see what happens. We'll… he has no leverage, no leverage at all. That whole country's on the verge of collapse. It's on the verge of collapse… and when it does, we'll need to start thinking of our northern border. It's a beautiful country, Canada, a beautiful country. Could be a beautiful state…"
– unidentified reporter and Donald Trump, press conference, June 6 1941
"No comment!" – William Lyon Mackenzie King, on being asked his opinion on Trump's statement, June 7 1941
MOONEY TO COUGHLIN: STICK TO THE PULPIT!
DETROIT, June 8 1941 – Archbishop Edward Mooney has starkly rebuked Father Charles Coughlin for his outspoken political activities. The archbishop has warned Coughlin to stick to his pastoral duties, and hinted at consequences if he fails to do so.
It is not clear if Archbishop Mooney's comments have the backing of the Pontiff…
BRITISH INVADE SYRIA
DAMASCUS, June 9 1941 – Yesterday, in total disregard for French neutrality, British and so-called 'Free' French troops invaded the mandate of Syria.
In an address to reporters, President Trump denounced the invasion, stating that 'if the British want to convince us they're the champions of free nations, this is not the way to do it…' [published in America Daily]
BRITISH TERROR CAMPAIGN AGAINST RUHR
COLOGNE, June 13 1941 – For the past two nights, British terror bombers have rained fire upon the towns and villages of the German Ruhr, in spite of the German pause on bombing London… [published in America Daily]
Conversation between Trump, Vance and Ambassador Lord Halifax, secretly recorded on order of Director Hoover (June 14 1941)
HALIFAX: …we really must protest these articles. The Germans have not paused the bombing of London out of the goodness of their hearts; they're preparing to invade the Soviet Union.
TRUMP: Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe that's a good thing…
HALIFAX: In any case, Germany has not asked for nor offered us a bombing pause. We reserve the right to hit their centres of war production.
TRUMP: It's not a good look. It's really not.
VANCE: Isn't one of your bombers called the Halifax?
HALIFAX: I beg your pardon?
VANCE: Seems like you must be pretty behind this campaign if you're letting them name bombers after you.
TRUMP: Very bad look.
HALIFAX: …are you being deliberately obtuse, Mr. Vice-President? Are you trying to… what is it you say? Push my buttons?
VANCE: You can't talk to me that way, Ambassador.
HALIFAX: I… [sigh] Of course, Mr. Vice-President. Now, about Syria…
CHURCHILL RECEIVES HONORARY DEGREE FROM UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER
"Our universities… they shouldn't be giving degrees to foreign dic– foreign leaders. I'm gonna be having a conversation with them. I… Churchill doesn't deserve anything from us. He's a grifter. He's a real grifter…" – President Trump, 'radio chat', June 17 1941
AUTO STRIKE DRAGS ON DESPITE PUBLIC DISPLEASURE
DEARBORN, June 20 1941 – A Gallop poll yesterday demonstrated that 65% of Americans disapprove of the continuing strike action by the United Auto Workers Union, which is now in its second month.
Work remains disrupted at Ford, Chrysler and General Motors, even as President Trump promises 'swift and decisive' action against the UAW…
GERMANY INVADES USSR
"Any man or state who fights on against Nazidom will have our aid. Any man or state who marches with Hitler is our foe…" – Winston Churchill, June 22 1941
"In beginning their campaign to destroy communism in it's lair, Germany is doing the United States a service. We can destroy communism, Bolshevism, atheism and all these other threats to this nation without spilling a single drop of American blood… forget England! We should be sending aid to Hitler in this struggle. And if Churchill wants to support Soviets, well, maybe we ought to fight him." – Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, on the House floor, June 23 1941
Conversation between Trump, Vance and General MacArthur, secretly recorded on order of Director Hoover (June 24 1941)
MACARTHUR: Some of the reports out of the Baltics make for stark reading, Mr. President. Stark reading indeed.
TRUMP: It's a terrible war, General, a terrible war. It's a terrible war. Might be a good war.
VANCE: Frankly, a fascist dominated Europe would suit us better than a communist one.
MACARTHUR: Ridding ourselves of the spectre of Bolshevism is certainly no bad thing. I suppose I just imagine how the last administration would react to these reports.
VANCE: You don't need to worry about that, General.
TRUMP: What do the reports say?
MACARTHUR: Specialised SS units are moving behind the German Army, uh, liquidating, uh, party officials, potential saboteurs… Jews…
TRUMP: A lot of Jews are communists, aren't they?
MACARTHUR: Over there and over here, sir. There, ah, there were a lot of 'em in the Rosenfeld– sorry, Roosevelt administration.
TRUMP: Could be some left over.
MACARTHUR: Still, Mr. President, if these killings were to become widely known…
VANCE: We're way ahead of you. Or rather the Office of Censorship is.
TRUMP: Good people on all sides. That's what we'll tell them, good people on all sides…
"Mr. Secretary, has there been any discussion as to Russian military aid?"
"As long as I'm Secretary of War? Not even a can of spam."
– Pete Hegseth, June 24 1941
"It is with great personal regret that I inform you that Washington has recalled our embassy and consulates with immediate effect."
– Ambassador Laurence Steinhardt, Moscow, June 26 1941, to Vyacheslav Molotov.
GERMAN ARMY CAPTURES MINSK
MINSK, June 28 1941 – Jubilant crowds met the advancing German Army as it drove into the capital of the so-called Belarussian Soviet Republic, having forced the Red Army back hundreds of miles within a single week… [published in America Daily]
Everything's lost. I give up. Lenin founded our state and we've fucked it up! – Josef Stalin, June 28 1941
AN: Calling Roosevelt 'Franklin Rosenfeld' sounds like the sort of comically over the top antisemitism you'd make a cartoon villain say, so it's with great sadness that I inform you that it's something MacArthur did regularly.
Stalin isn't seriously giving up after losing Minsk right?I know the initial German advance into Russia seemed to go well for Germany but I find it hard to believe that Stalin would throw in the towel after that considering he still fought on when Germany was at the fringes of Moscow, or is there some detail that I don't know about?
DETROIT, June 8 1941 – Archbishop Edward Mooney has starkly rebuked Father Charles Coughlin for his outspoken political activities. The archbishop has warned Coughlin to stick to his pastoral duties, and hinted at consequences if he fails to do so.
It is not clear if Archbishop Mooney's comments have the backing of the Pontiff…
If he doesn't have the backing of the Pontiff now, he will if Coughlin tries to ignore him. Pius XII was many things, but I suspect willing to overlook outright insubordination was not one of them. Especially since he's trying a balancing act on politics and Coughlin is upsetting said balancing act...
Yeah, that's a good point - does Trump have a Secretary of the Navy? I know its a junior department now, but if Hegseth has been moved to the War Department, then Navy is a cabinet level decision. Maybe its one of the other secretaries who no longer have a department?
I will concur that I don't think Stalin would give up this quickly, but I could maybe see him shouting this in a pique of anger. I'm sure if anyone moved to publicize it or use it against him he'd sic Beria on them, but he could absolutely be throwing a fit over seemingly everything going wrong.
Hm. What's the status of negotiations between Japan and the USA? Because I know Japanese high command looked at invading the Soviet Union if it looked like it was about to fall and even if they're moving southwards towards Indonesia-Malaysia-Burma still, they might opportunistically order the Kwantung Army north if it looks like the Soviets are falling.
Also also, Trump would probably be good friends with 'White Australia', could see him try to get it into his own sphere of influence as opposed to Japan when they inevitably move to delineate where exactly Japan will have its free hand in Asia.
Maybe. IIRC the 'Strike South' group was already largely entrenched by 1940 - what the US cutting a deal with Japan does is remove the imminent need to make a move either north or south. If the US stops funding China and promises to not cut off trade, chances are the Japanese army will by and large just focus on winning against the KMT and opportunistically take power wherever they can, like in Indochina when France fell.
Maybe. IIRC the 'Strike South' group was already largely entrenched by 1940 - what the US cutting a deal with Japan does is remove the imminent need to make a move either north or south. If the US stops funding China and promises to not cut off trade, chances are the Japanese army will by and large just focus on winning against the KMT and opportunistically take power wherever they can, like in Indochina when France fell.
If Japan goes ahead with occupying the Dutch East Indies (which would still be under martial law after the Netherlands proper got occupied by the Nazis), and/or manages to bring Thailand into it's sphere of influence, the UK might try to stop them from snowballing out of control. Similarly, even if Japan holds from taking the Philippines and so forth, they might still go after British possessions in East Asia to cut off supply lines to KMT China.
Yeah, that's a good point - does Trump have a Secretary of the Navy? I know its a junior department now, but if Hegseth has been moved to the War Department, then Navy is a cabinet level decision. Maybe its one of the other secretaries who no longer have a department?
Oh, God, please don't tell me that ADM. King got promoted from CNO to SecNav! The man was more or less competent, I'll grant, but his naked hatred for the British (amongst others) led to some absolutely horrific mistakes when the USN got into the war in @.
[checks Wiki]
OK, SecNav has to have been out of uniform for at least five years before assuming the post, so King is legally disqualified. (Assuming Trump actually follows the law, which is hardly a safe assumption these days.)
...
Maybe it's an up-timer? Maybe even someone who actually remembers the Charlie-Foxtrot that was the Mk.14 torpedo family and is undertaking additional testing to make sure it's war-ready? And is leveraging other uptime knowledge to try to get out ahead of the worst crises?
...
Oh, who am I trying to kid. Any naval war in this timeline involving the USN is going to be just as much of a shitshow as the 1941-1943 period was IOTL. Probably worse, since Trump thinks with his petulant spite and doesn't even know the basics of Pearl Harbour!
🤮
