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(Alternate History) The Second Sino-Japanese War

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Just Some Guy said:
I have a question did ww1 not start because I am wondering why we have a german advisor?
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Indeed, a driver in Austria didn't take a wrong turn, so Franz Ferdinand never got shot. The German attache is also to Korea. The Germans have all sorts of interests in east Asia, both aligned with Japan and not, but one of them is keeping Korea out of Chinese hands (because China is liable to roll over to Russia if Japan isn't threatening).

Uhtread said:
Is there any benefit to mix cavalry into other divisions? Or is speed within divisions abstracted out?
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Speed is abstracted to division level, yeah. Basically, things that are already towed by horses or trucks like artillery and supplies won't slow cavalry down, and is in most cases the ideal pairing for cavalry.

Cavalry is mostly useful as either scout divisions or flanking forces. Because of the way artillery works, cav-field gun divisions can keep artillery safe while moving fast and also being able to use the cavalry offensively.

Cavalry on its own is basically fast infantry that can't entrench but can retreat faster, scout enemy positions easier and get away from pursuing forces. Including cavalry brigades in an infantry division is thus sort of moot. You're losing out on the speed, and while they can effectively become entrenched, all you've really done is make it a really expensive infantry brigade.
 
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I went for a completely balanced approach, OCD style. I think the numbers check out...

I went for thick infantry divisions with motorized logistics support, motorized assault divisions with integrated artillery support, concentrated heavy artillery with field engineer units, and stinging light artillery + cavalry harassment units.

[X] Plan HanEmpire
[X] Heavy Assault Division x3
-[X] 2x Rikusentai Marine Infantry Brigade
-[X] 1x Koheitai Pioneer Infantry Brigade
-[X] 3x Infantry Brigades
-[X] 1x J-14 105mm L/40 Field Gun (Towed)
-[X] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[X] Assault Division x1
-[X] 1x Rikusentai Marine Infantry Brigade
-[X] 1x Koheitai Pioneer Infantry Brigade
-[X] 5x Infantry Brigades
-[X] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[X] Flying Artillery Division x7
-[X] 1x Cavalry Brigade
-[X] 2x J-14 105mm L/40 Field Gun (Towed)

[X] Integrated Infantry Division x8
-[X] 6x Infantry Brigades
-[X] 1x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)
-[X] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[X] Infantry Division x4
-[X] 4x Infantry Brigades

[X] Heavy Artillery Division x3
-[X] 1x Koheitai Pioneer Infantry Brigade
-[X] 1x J-14 105mm L/40 Field Gun (Towed)
-[X] 5x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)

[X] Reserve Heavy Artillery Division x1
-[X] 1x Infantry Brigade
-[X] 6x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)

Unit Assignments

[X] 1st Army Corp (Lt. General Hideki Kenji)
-[X] 1x Heavy Assault Division
-[X] 2x Flying Artillery Divisions
-[X] 2x Integrated Infantry Divisions
-[X] 1x Infantry Division
-[X] 1x Heavy Artillery Division

[X] 2nd Army Corp (Lt. General Ikeda Takumi)
-[X] 1x Heavy Assault Division
-[X] 2x Flying Artillery Divisions
-[X] 2x Integrated Infantry Divisions
-[X] 1x Infantry Division
-[X] 1x Heavy Artillery Division

[X] 3rd Army Corp (Lt. General Nakano Taro)
-[X] 1x Heavy Assault Division
-[X] 2x Flying Artillery Divisions
-[X] 2x Integrated Infantry Divisions
-[X] 1x Infantry Division
-[X] 1x Heavy Artillery Division

[X] 4th Army Corp (Maj. General Ueno Yasuhiro)
-[X] 1x Assault Division
-[X] 2x Flying Artillery Divisions
-[X] 2x Integrated Infantry Divisions
-[X] 1x Infantry Division
-[X] 1x Reserve Heavy Artillery Division
 
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Alright here's my first pass. Criticism welcome:

[] Plan: Flexibility Mk1
[] 14x Standard Infantry Division
-[] 5x Standard Infantry Brigade
-[] 1x J-14 105mm L/40 Field Gun (Towed)
-[] 1x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)
-[] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[] 2x Independent Shock Division
-[] 3x Rikusentai Marine Infantry Brigades
-[] 2x J-14 105mm L/40 Field Gun (Towed)
-[] 2x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)
-[] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[] 2x Fast Attack Division
-[] 3x Normal Cavalry
-[] 1x J-14 105mm L/40 Field Gun (Towed)
-[] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[] 2x Independent Pioneer Division
-[] 3x Koheitai Pioneer Infantry Brigade
-[] 2x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)
-[]1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[] 3x Support Division
-[] 2x Standard Infantry Brigade
-[] 1x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)
-[] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[] 1x Reserve Division
-[] 1x Rikusentai Marine Infantry Brigade
-[] 1x Koheitai Pioneer Infantry Brigade
-[] 1x Normal Cavalry Brigade
-[] 1x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)
-[] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade


The basic idea is that we can divide the Standard Infantry Divisions as we want, while the more specialized divisions can be applied where they are needed on the front.

The Shock Divisions for offense or amphibious landings if necessary, consisting solely of Marines and Artillery Support. My only concern is maybe we should take out the heavy howitzers and leave them with only field guns to ensure they move at top speeds?

The Pioneer Divisions for supply and bridging, and since they can dig in with light fortifications we can use them in conjunction with the slower howitzers without taking away too much of their use.

The Fast Attack Divisions for scouting and raids. They just get Field Guns and Trucks so they can move faster.

The Support Divisions are basically just for plugging holes in the line.

The Reserve division is... stuff that wouldn't fit elsewhere.

I think I did all my math right, but would be glad for someone to check me.
 
HanEmpire said:
I went for a completely balanced approach, OCD style. I think the numbers check out...

I went for thick infantry divisions with motorized logistics support, motorized assault divisions with integrated artillery support, concentrated heavy artillery with field engineer units, and stinging light artillery + cavalry harassment units.

[X] Plan HanEmpire
[X] Heavy Assault Division x3
-[X] 2x Rikusentai Marine Infantry Brigade
-[X] 1x Koheitai Pioneer Infantry Brigade
-[X] 3x Infantry Brigades
-[X] 1x J-14 105mm L/40 Field Gun (Towed)
-[X] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[X] Assault Division x1
-[X] 1x Rikusentai Marine Infantry Brigade
-[X] 1x Koheitai Pioneer Infantry Brigade
-[X] 4x Infantry Brigades
-[X] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[X] Flying Artillery Division x7
-[X] 1x Cavalry Brigade
-[X] 2x J-14 105mm L/40 Field Gun (Towed)

[X] Infantry Division x8
-[X] 6x Infantry Brigades
-[X] 1x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)
-[X] 1x Kashinsha Type-14 1,5t Truck Motorized Supply Brigade

[X] Heavy Artillery Division x3
-[X] 4x Infantry Brigade
-[X] 1x Koheitai Pioneer Infantry Brigade
-[X] 1x J-14 105mm L/40 Field Gun (Towed)
-[X] 5x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)

[X] Reserve Heavy Artillery Division x1
-[X] 3x Infantry Brigade
-[X] 6x J-38 149mm M.05 Howitzer (Towed)

Unit Assignments

[X] 1st Army Corp (Lt. General Hideki Kenji)
-[X] 1x Heavy Assault Division
-[X] 2x Flying Artillery Divisions
-[X] 2x Infantry Divisions
-[X] 1x Heavy Artillery Division

[X] 2nd Army Corp (Lt. General Ikeda Takumi)
-[X] 1x Heavy Assault Division
-[X] 2x Flying Artillery Divisions
-[X] 2x Infantry Divisions
-[X] 1x Heavy Artillery Division

[X] 3rd Army Corp (Lt. General Nakano Taro)
-[X] 1x Heavy Assault Division
-[X] 2x Flying Artillery Divisions
-[X] 2x Infantry Divisions
-[X] 1x Heavy Artillery Division

[X] 4th Army Corp (Maj. General Ueno Yasuhiro)
-[X] 1x Assault Division
-[X] 2x Flying Artillery Divisions
-[X] 2x Infantry Divisions
-[X] 1x Reserve Heavy Artillery Division
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Uh, guys please remember:
KlinkerKing said:
Each division may contain up to 7 Brigades, and a minimum of 3 Brigades. Choose how you wish to deploy your brigades
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Now technically you can use the trucks as flying logistics brigades and just have them attached as an eighth brigade to divisions, because they're logistics they don't really fight. The maximum width is otherwise 7 brigades.

I'll edit in the part about trucks into the story post.
 
KlinkerKing said:
Uh, guys please remember:

Now technically you can use the trucks as flying logistics brigades and just have them attached as an eighth brigade to divisions, because they're logistics they don't really fight. The maximum width is otherwise 7 brigades.

I'll edit in the part about trucks into the story post.
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I think I fixed it. Can you check my math?

I took all the excess infantry and put them into 4 large Infantry divisions, for the Army Corps to use for non-intensive duties and as reserves.
 
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Vote closing in 1 hour!

Update may not be until Tuesday, but I'll try and get it out before tomorrow evening.
 
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February 12th, 1915, Deployment of Armies, Meeting Marshal Hiiragi
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    • 09:30, Pyongyang HQ, February 12th, 1915


    The Beiyang Army parading at the coronation of the Hongxian Emperor, Yuan Shikai, 1914​

    You are reading through a message from Lt. General von Gallwitz over a cup of green tea when your secretary informs you that the Field Marshal is arriving later in the day. You give a small nod, sip your tea once more, contemplating the absolute diplomatic circus the Germans are providing. Von Gallwitz, in his letter, is informing you that the Chinese have hundreds of modern German Krupp field guns in their possession, sold to them over the past ten years. Supposedly, they were intended to keep the Russians at bay, but that intention does you no good now. Nonetheless, you resolve to send him a polite thank-you message.

    It is almost noon when your secretary opens the door, letting Field Marshal Hiiragi through. As the door closes, you stand, performing all the proper bows with sufficient deference to his senior position, as required by regulation.

    "General," he begins after you are both seated, "I expect you are in control of the situation? I have been drafting plans with my naval counterpart, and there are two things that stand out. Depending on the performance of the enemy forces in Manchuria, we can adopt one of two possible stances in Korea. We can strike, aiming to cut off further offenses and make this a short war. We can dig in, but lose initiative, while gaining the advantage of prepared positions. If you should choose the later, you must know that China is not liable to surrender. Yuan Shikai is aware of the shaky position he holds as a recently crowned emperor, and he will grip that crown as firmly as possible. His life more than likely depends on it. If you should choose the former, you must be aware that Liaotung and Manchuria are political nitroglycerin. One misstep and half the world will come barreling at us with demands, or worse, circumvent us entirely in a conference of great powers. Be careful.

    "As far as military intelligence goes, we have reports of the former Beiyang Army, the 4th Army under Feng Guozhang, moving towards Dongan, possibly attempting to use the railway bridge there to cross Yalu. It would be risky, but Admiral Nakamura can't sally from Liaotung without risking an assault on Dairen. Further, we have reports of the 22nd under Cao Kun moving on Dairen. That is all we know, meaning that the 9th Army under Yin Chang is still unaccounted for, but we estimate the three armies to have just over half a million men between them.

    "I have also spoken to the general staff on the matter of an amphibious landing near Shanghai. A swift strike to take out the head of the snake, as a last resort should Yuan Shikai choose not to end the war honourably. It may be our only option short of a full scale invasion." He grimaces briefly. "Of course, there's the matter of China's continued stability, but it would seem that is out of our hands now."

    You nod and answer…
    [X] We will focus on the defense, with limited offensive maneuvers in order to best preserve our comparatively limited manpower. (Progressives, ??? and ??? likes this)
    [X] We will focus on the offense, attempting to overwhelm, encircle or outmaneuver the Chinese forces in Manchuria in order to cut off reinforcements. (Nationalists, Oligarchs and ??? likes this)
    [X] Write-in

    (Note: you can change this later as the situation develops, but this will let the Field Marshal plan accordingly. He has another two Armies under his command, one of which is currently stationed in Formosa, and the other in Kyushu. He will direct these differently depending on how you respond.)

    "Very well, General. The Emperor is counting on you." You stand up as he does, and then bow to each other before he leaves you to your planning. As the Field Marshal departs, you go back to your maps, looking over your deployments...

    ​

    Vote by plan. You may deploy an army to two adjacent zones, and you don't have to deploy armies to every zone. Dairen is held by a garrison of 7 infantry brigades who are permanently entrenched there. Dandong is similarly garrisoned by the Chinese on the other side of Yalu. You expect about 3-5 brigades are garrisoned in Dandong, but they are supported by the elite 4th Army.

    Example:
    [X] Plan Klinker
    -[X] 1st Army
    --[X] Cyan
    --[X] Purple
    -[X] 2nd Army
    --[X] Orange
    -[X] 3rd Army
    --[X] Red
    -[X] 4th Army
    --[X] Red
    --[X] Cyan
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Uhhhhhh, it's actually a rather hard decision.
    On the one hand, getting into a defensive position would be my preference taking into account the difference in numbers, but I am kinda worried about letting the Chinese endlessly attack us and refine their doctrine and war economy, we also lack strategic depth.
    On the other hand, attacking seems like a good way to take heavy losses, suffer catastrophic defeat, and all around be miserable.
    But if we take into account China current stability, if we defeat the Chinese armies in the field and push into manchuria, it may shake his mandate of heaven and lead to a collapse of his government, thus ending the war before China can really mobilize against us.
    What to do, What to do....
     
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    [X] We will focus on the defense, with limited offensive maneuvers in order to best preserve our comparatively limited manpower. (Progressives, ??? and ??? likes this)

    [X] Plan HanEmpire
    -[X] 1st Army
    --[X] Cyan
    --[X] Purple
    -[X] 2nd Army
    --[X] Red
    -[X] 3rd Army
    --[X] Orange
    -[X] 4th Army
    --[X] Red
    --[X] Cyan

    1st Army under the decorated general takes the longest front.
    2nd Army under the innovate general takes the hottest front.
    3rd Army under the drunk general takes the quietest front.
    4th Army under the junior general gets reinforcement duties for armies 1 & 2.

    We take a defensive stance to encourage defensive mindset in the Japanese military, to discourage the nutty ultranationalist & totalist mindsets from gaining ground in the military. "Stunning" victories against China here will cause some hard victory disease to set in, especially if it ends up collapsing China's shaky central authority. We need to defeat the Chinese without grand offensives or land gains. Fortunately we're in the age of machine guns and trenches, so prepared lines will triumph for this war. I don't see China developing tanks or directed artillery first.

    Plus letting China keep Manchuria will encourage China vs Russia rivalry.
     
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    The Fool said:
    How interesting but the Japanese haven't developed grenades yet till 1921, or is our troops using the newly developed foreign designs?
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    Japan is slightly ahead of schedule in terms of development in this timeline because for one, the Taisho Emperor has been investing substantially in local production capabilities (hence why you have access to trucks as well, they weren't really a thing until 1918 or so, and in Japan not until the interwar period) but more importantly, General Kuroki Tamemoto was appointed Field Marshal and lessons from the Russo-Japanese War where improvised hand grenades were used to great effect, were not wasted.
     
    KlinkerKing said:
    Japan is slightly ahead of schedule in terms of development in this timeline because for one, the Taisho Emperor has been investing substantially in local production capabilities (hence why you have access to trucks as well, they weren't really a thing until 1918 or so, and in Japan not until the interwar period) but more importantly, General Kuroki Tamemoto was appointed Field Marshal and lessons from the Russo-Japanese War where improvised hand grenades were used to great effect, were not wasted.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    So are we using improvised grenades, the TYpe 10 or foreign designs?
     
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