Alt History ideas, rec and general discussion thread

Teen Spirit

Lost in Ever After
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Since people brought it up in the the cringe thread. This a thread to talk about whatever alternate history story, timeline, or even map or flag ideas you may have. also maybe rec some good timelines and other alt history since we've seen so many terrible ones.

I'll start off. So one of the TNO devs was talking on discord the other day about Valery Sablin's mutiny against Leonid Brezhnev and how, for a little while at least, it seemed to have been working. Basically they said there where pilots suppose to attack the ship basically refused for a while, having to basically be brow beat over the radio into obeying orders. So that lead me to a thought, what is realistically the most success his Mutiny could have had?
 
Hmm, well first off (just to add to the thread), not that this alt-history needs much introduction, I can definitely rec Male Rising:


The sheer amount of work in areas that I often overlooked is staggering, and it has neither an addiction to a million things getting worse forever, or an obsession with either wank or an endless shiny progressive future where nothing bad happens.
 
In the Shadow of the Old Pueblo is an original and refreshing approach towards the ISOT genre.

A Monument to Man's Arrogance is another original and refreshing approach towards ISOT TLs, more polished than the above.

Lands of Red and Gold is a legendary tale of an alternate aboriginal Australia of the sort that has never been done before. Original civilizations, religions, cultures, and of course the collision when Europe finally makes contact are superb.
 
Guess I'll ask here then...

Is my stuff considered alternate history? Because I tend to have a lot of world-building ideas that involve an alternate Earths, but that don't really have things like POD's as a major focus. For example, I have a China that's basically this world's USA (with some influence from Revolutionary France and Russia) rolled up into one, but I'm also having that country be the setting for where some superheroes come from. Like an old idea I semi-abandoned was that superheroes from this China would essentially form this world's leading superhero team and they would go on to fight in an alt-World War (that would see the Euro-colonial empires being forced to let go of mainland South and South East Asia). I even had this idea of India being ruled by the "Christian Lords"(inspired by Sith Lords) who would basically be a bunch of Lords and Ladies who rule over India as tyrants.

Now I recognize that my stuff is ASB, but I was just wondering if I should leave it here for the AH elements or somewhere else on the forum.
 
I have an idea for ISOT timeline (inspired by Purple Phoenix here on SV), picture this :

A grand yet decaying capital of a vestigial empire on its last knees as invaders from the East prepare to sack it, only to be saved by what seems to be an act of God and inserted into a seemingly uninhabited land. Except those invaders are the Illkanate mongols and the city is 1258 AD Baghdad.

Haven't put much thought into it honestly and I have no idea where to place the city in North America but I do intend to work on it once I am finished with some of my other works
 
Okay! I'm probably going to toss in a variety of really good timelines/stories here for what I feel are rather good.

McGoverning by Yes, is in my opinion an absolutely fantastic timeline/story, which as you can guess from the title is focused on McGovern winning the 1972 Presidential Election, but Yes's writing is just absolutely phenomenal in writing it and actually just selling the story. To share a quote of it I absolutely love:

Old River Control, every foot of it — two hundred thousand tons of concrete and re-bar, the sluices and bars and revetments — spoke boldly of the ancient human need to spite God. From that point, that human hand thrown up against a rhythm thousands of years old, Louisiana spread out in all directions. Louisiana's bayous, silt deposits, and wide, rich bottom land was the physical evidence of how it was formed. Every thousand years or so, a new channel made from deposits and winds and climate snared the Mississippi and pulled it in a new direction that built up Louisiana around it, then was snared again by a different path leaving a dank backwater behind. Now, if you gave nature a free hand, the Atchafalaya basin waited to snatch up the third-mightiest river in the world and pull it away from the long dogleg to New Orleans.

Trouble was, if that happened now a long river run of industrial and petrochemical plants, a string of cities small and large up to one of America's greatest ports, and the whole artery of swift commerce from the inland United States down into the Gulf of Mexico, would be cut off and wiped away. It would be an economic catastrophe so great engineering experts said in hushed tones that it might swing not just the commercial health of the nation but the fate of the Cold War. That simply couldn't happen; humanity, or at least the Army Corps of Engineers, needed to bar nature's way. So they did, going into the 1960s, with the vast control structures at the Old River juncture, the chain on the door to keep the Mississippi steady and out of a fatal shift into the Atchafalaya.

For a decade Old River Control did its job in quiet. Despite the occasional hurricanes weather was relatively mild along the Gulf and conditions consistent. Then, from the autumn of 1972 into the spring of 1973, as the nation's politics tumbled and fell then rose again in strange new ways, things changed on the Mississippi. On the far end of the same climate event that scoured Soviet wheat fields, heavy snow dumped down in the north of the Mississippi's catchment basin, which was practically all of North America's waterways, while it rained like hell down south. Boosted up in channels that had been both raised and narrowed by sediment, downpour and melt rushed south in the constricted space like the face of Creation's waters.

Another absolutely top-notch one is Agent Lavender: The Flight of Harold Wilson, which is just sort of on what if the conspiracy theory about Wilson being a Soviet agent was true, and just goes on from there. It's honestly an absolutely amazing read, and I would recommend people read it, with it being available from Sea Lion Press.

In terms of a third and final amazing timeline I'd recommend would be That Wacky Redhead by Brainbin, which unlike most timelines goes to focus on the popular culture side of things, and considering how detailed it is for something that is generally a sort of obscure aspect in alternate history is something I just really dig.

Then there's also the kind of graphical work and the timelines with them, and god I just have so many favorites from ToixStory/Witch0Winter. Two of my favorites are The Grand War, in part for just how different from a normal map it is in terms of the perspective and also in terms of the kind of background it has, and Freedom and Unity, which again has an absolutely phenomenal graphical outlay I feel and especially with the kind of background it has.
 
I have an idea for ISOT timeline (inspired by Purple Phoenix here on SV), picture this :

A grand yet decaying capital of a vestigial empire on its last knees as invaders from the East prepare to sack it, only to be saved by what seems to be an act of God and inserted into a seemingly uninhabited land. Except those invaders are the Illkanate mongols and the city is 1258 AD Baghdad.

Haven't put much thought into it honestly and I have no idea where to place the city in North America but I do intend to work on it once I am finished with some of my other works

hmmm... well, if you want similar geography, you could place them along a major river system to give them a similar setup to pre-move and let them not have to worry about getting a new fresh water source, now the question becomes how divergent do you want the climate to be from where they came from? Because with that caveat, you could put them in the California Central Valley, which doesn't snow and is probably the closest approximation you'll get to Mesopotamia in North America, or the Columbia River Plateau if you want to have them struggle with a non-navigable river system and getting used to snowy winters. Then there's the Mississippi and its tributaries, which span a massive series of biomes and terrain types, and the Amazon, which while similar temperature wise is very different from their homeland in just about every other way. Finally there's the Rio de la Plata down south, which has a climate that is a lot closer to Mesopotamia than the Amazon is, at least in certain parts.
 
hmmm... well, if you want similar geography, you could place them along a major river system to give them a similar setup to pre-move and let them not have to worry about getting a new fresh water source, now the question becomes how divergent do you want the climate to be from where they came from? Because with that caveat, you could put them in the California Central Valley, which doesn't snow and is probably the closest approximation you'll get to Mesopotamia in North America, or the Columbia River Plateau if you want to have them struggle with a non-navigable river system and getting used to snowy winters. Then there's the Mississippi and its tributaries, which span a massive series of biomes and terrain types, and the Amazon, which while similar temperature wise is very different from their homeland in just about every other way. Finally there's the Rio de la Plata down south, which has a climate that is a lot closer to Mesopotamia than the Amazon is, at least in certain parts.
This is quite helpful thanks :)

I will probably go with either Calfornia or the Missispei though the idea of Baghdad ending up in the amazon or Coloumbia is interesting all on its own so I am not sure at the moment.

What I am really interested in doing is figuring out how the Abbasids will impact the Native American peoples and civilsations given that they have more than 200 centuries before any Europeans arrive (assuming butterfly nets).


On that note were any of the Mesoamerican civilisations active at that point?
 
This is quite helpful thanks :)

I will probably go with either Calfornia or the Missispei though the idea of Baghdad ending up in the amazon or Coloumbia is interesting all on its own so I am not sure at the moment.

What I am really interested in doing is figuring out how the Abbasids will impact the Native American peoples and civilsations given that they have more than 200 centuries before any Europeans arrive (assuming butterfly nets).


On that note were any of the Mesoamerican civilisations active at that point?

No problem! Just keep in mind, the Mississippi and its tributaries cover a massive swath of land and terrains, from Minnesota down to Louisiana, so where along the Mississippi you put them is almost as important as the decision to put them on the Mississippi.

Also, I just remembered the Rio Grande and Colorado rivers, which are a lot closer to their origin climate wise, but each pose plenty of geographical issues.
 
In an effort to not just repeat Male Rising, here's another timeline I really enjoyed King Theodore's Corsica the story of how one Westphalian baron/Jacobite spy/alchemist/radical progressive/absolute bastard of a con man comes to rule as King of Corsica, the home of vendetta and also to a communal quasi-republican government that seems to have almost been forgotten by time and to have largely not experienced the mass enclosure of land into large territorial estates.
 
One of my all-time favourite timelines is Spectre of Europe by Reydan. As of rigth now updates are unfortunately few and far between and there are some issues with threadmarks, but in my opinion the quality of the writing and the way Reydan captures the chaos of real-life history makes it well worth the small hassle.
 
hmmm... well, if you want similar geography, you could place them along a major river system to give them a similar setup to pre-move and let them not have to worry about getting a new fresh water source, now the question becomes how divergent do you want the climate to be from where they came from? Because with that caveat, you could put them in the California Central Valley, which doesn't snow and is probably the closest approximation you'll get to Mesopotamia in North America, or the Columbia River Plateau if you want to have them struggle with a non-navigable river system and getting used to snowy winters. Then there's the Mississippi and its tributaries, which span a massive series of biomes and terrain types, and the Amazon, which while similar temperature wise is very different from their homeland in just about every other way. Finally there's the Rio de la Plata down south, which has a climate that is a lot closer to Mesopotamia than the Amazon is, at least in certain parts.
This is quite helpful thanks :)

I will probably go with either Calfornia or the Missispei though the idea of Baghdad ending up in the amazon or Coloumbia is interesting all on its own so I am not sure at the moment.

What I am really interested in doing is figuring out how the Abbasids will impact the Native American peoples and civilsations given that they have more than 200 centuries before any Europeans arrive (assuming butterfly nets).


On that note were any of the Mesoamerican civilisations active at that point?
The AH.com map thread - of all places - actually had a thing a few months back where the similarity of the Tigris-Euphrates and the Rio Grande-Pecos was brought up, and there where a bunch of ISOT scenarios featuring Iraq getting ported to the area (and sometimes swapping with whats already there) in either modern day or on a virgin Earth. So that might be a good location for you to use.
 
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One idea I've been mulling over a while is a Capital ISOT, what would happen if a Modern day capital was replaced with an older one. Particularly last few decades or so. Because that raises a question for me, particularly with Democracies. Say Washington D.C during one of the Impeachment hearings, when most of Congress and the Adminstration was in the City, was replaced with Washington D.C from 1962. Would the Kennedy adminstration have any sort of right to rule, even for an interm period? Would we basically have to declare the three branches effectively all vacant or something?
 
Hmm I've mentally kicked around the idea of US history going slightly differently with the US having a elected monarchy and a permanently elected for life barring misbehavior senate and the sort of political situations that could arise result like lets say having a President Thomas Jefferson and a Prime Minster Alexander Hamilton and how it might effect US history for better or worse.

I've also kicked around the idea of Virginia's Great Slave Debate of 1831-1832 going differently and the state adopting gradual emancipation and the effects it would have on the course of US history.
 
Idea: A multiple, two-or-three axis Industrial Revolution, instead of OTL one centered on Western Europe and North America.
 
Not sure if it counts since it is very recent, but delaying (I doubt it could be prevented) the crossover surge in the automotive industry at the expense of other vehicles. I'd love to write something about that.
 
To second @Usili 2.0, McGoverning is brilliant. Not only is it reasonably in-character for all involved and vividly written, the feel of the writing is very 1970s. It's very Boys on the Bus or Fear and Loathing, those run-on sentences with hyperbolic descriptions somehow managing to convey a sense of both immediacy and reasonable description.
 
I have this idea for a Southern Africa that's inspired a bit by Attack on Titan.
Basically, Southern Africa would be split between two powers. A German speaking one called Engelia (Eldia) and a Spanish speaking one called Milagria (Marley). They would both be imperialist powers, with the indigenous on both sides suffering assimilation, while the Hispanicized/Germanized peoples chuck at each other for dominance over the region. Eventually, Engelia would be forced to leave the mainland and establish a government-in-exile in Madagascar (Paradis). I was mostly inspired to come up with this because I noticed that AOT's map is basically Southern Africa, while Ancient Marley and Eldia were clear stand in for the Germanic Tribes and the Roman Empire. It would have probably been more accurate to have made Milagria Italian, but since I wanted this to fit in the logic of my default world (which has Spain and Germany as taking France and Britain's place in our world, so I made Milagria come from Spanish colonies.
 
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I had this vague idea for a "Confederacy survives to become a dystopic failed state and eventually collapse" timeline that I've been gnawing on for a while. Obviously the only way to have a Confederate "victory" is to have the intervention of France and Britain in the Civil War, but fundamentally there is a hard deadline in how long that can remain viable before the Confederate-friendly elites are overwhelmed by the full contours of how the Civil War has changed everything and how the general public becomes increasingly militant in their solidarity and mass organization against slavery. Thus this alternate Civil War has a hard cap of like maximum two years and change before even Gladstone's ideas of a "humanitarian" intervention and an armistice to save all those poor slaveowners from a "Haitian servile insurrection" (i.e. a race war started by all those savages thirsty for white blood... yes they actually thought that was a believable sell). The immediate problem with this scenario is that when our actual Civil War started France had used the opportunity to leap into in an imperialist quagmire invading Mexico and correspondingly lost a great deal of diplomatic and military capital in the disastrous venture and (extremely temporarily) discredited the idea of an European coalition protecting free trade and the laws of nations by sending gunboats wherever they pleased.

Thus any European pushed truce and quasi-colonial arbitration between the Union and Confederacy would only be possible in a delayed Civil War, so that with a still, barely, united America Napoleon III never has the idle hands to make his Mexican devil's play. Plus this would put the response of the British government in the hands of something like the Russell ministry and "my father literally owned slaves" Gladstone for those critical couple years. Backtracking from how we want the Confederacy to be saving by Anglo-French interference how then can the outbreak of war be delayed? The actual beginning of the war proper was something that came as a surprise to many and was seemingly willed into existence by fate, regardless of all the countless moments various "conditional" unionists and moderate secessionists seemed like they would derail secession entirely and work out a final eleventh hour compromise with the lame duck Congress and the 1861 Peace Conference and just missed a solution again and again. In a way you could look at the opening confusion of the secession crisis in the same frame as the serial ball-dropping by all of European diplomacy that allowed WW1 to happen.

It seems to me that as events played out OTL you had just enough hollowing out of the "peace and stability at all costs" centrists in favor of increasingly incompatible ideas of what democracy and liberty meant, that yet another stifling abolition-rejecting compromise could not be created. Logically then, if you had something approaching the seriousness of the secession crisis earlier before the American political classes ran out of ways to put out fires, then you might have had a er, "success", along the lines of the Crittenden Compromise and/or the Corwin Amendment, thus delaying full Civil War until like the aftermath of the 1864 elections. So how do you get an "oh shit South Carolina actually did it" moment in a truncated premature 1857-58 secession crisis? After all, in the start of Buchanan's term the United States were if not great, then at least spiraling down slow enough that people could convince themselves that this would all be just a little turbulence.

To my mind the best way to build some momentum to an early crisis would be to first swing the pendulum the other way. The best way to do that I think would be to have William Rufus King never catch tuberculosis, for despite the romantic image there is no calm and dignified arrangement of affairs and it is only a very short time before your constant choking need for respites and sojourns to regions with "better airs" make you totally unable to really exert yourself in a high-intensity field like politics. With Buchanan's life partner instead able to fully participate in the arena and take up his long-awaited position as Vice-President, his brand of pro-Southern agreeability and civility and someone who MLK might say 'prefers negative peace that is the absence of tension to the positive peace which is the presence of justice' might just be the lid to put on this pot to get it really boiling. If the veteran President pro tempore of the Senate and lifelong Alabamian planter is able to tamper down on a toxic Congressional environment in which things like the Caning of Charles Sumner would arise and generally force Abolitionists, and occasional Fire-Eaters, to make less waves (thus pissing everyone off and likely destroying his career) then some of the triggers for increasing radicalization might be moved up to some years later. With King taking on some of the heat for things like terribly unpopular Kansas-Nebraska Act and maybe something like a less inflammatory version of the Ostend Manifesto he's able to walk Pierre Soule back on like Buchanan (who was only Southern in spirit) never could, my thought was that he would end up being a scapegoat for America's sins and thus partially distract everyone from the growing rupture in Northern and Southern ideas of being a decent human being and not owning people, Jesus Christ.

Thus you could have things like John Quitman's Filibustering Expedition to Cuba being delayed but not suspended and ending up as basically an Antebellum Bay of Pigs, and in the fallout of that failure earlier attempts at Abolitionist direct action by figures like John Brown could be undertaken and maybe even become a catalyst for others like Moses Dickson's Knights of Liberty to try their hand. Thus you have a South that is having a repeat of it's Nat Turner freak out and increasingly convinced that Abolitionists are the Illuminati and thus you have a North repelled by the depths of Southern territorial ambitions and increasingly convinced that the slavers wish to prevent any American soil from being free of its curse, and thus you have a semi-imploded Democratic Party presiding over South Carolina and maybe one or two more states holding conventions for secession and thus making one final compromise that crawls over the finish line to a Civil War starting in 1864.

Plus with a later Civil War the South would likely be somewhere in the beginning stages of their cotton bubble popping as the overheated market had been asking for since the later half of the 1850s. Though the Confederates are probably going to be able to shift the blame for the bust to sinister conspiracies by Northern banks and mills and push through the beginning of the war, not even the most delusion Fire-Eater is going to be able to trust entirely on King Cotton alone solving all their diplomatic goals, and so actual systematic effort by the Confederate leadership to bond with the French and English governments could only increase the pressure for European intervention in those crucial first moments when their sympathizing elites are still able to wag the dog and prod the majority to go along with it.

Any thoughts?
 
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So this is an idea I've been mulling around for a while. The premise is basically this; due to a more closely run American War of Independence, Britain holds on to North America west of the Proclamation Line in the final peace treaty. This leads to the United States ultimately being stillborn, suffering a Gran Colombia style breakup after George Washington leaves the stage, and a very different Age of Revolutions following on from that.

Not really sure how to make it work at the moment - Cornwallis managing to break out of Yorktown is a possibility but I haven't had the time to explore it.
 
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