Alt History ideas, rec and general dicussion thread

Might as well toss up an idea here for something I've been toying with a fair bit more as of late, which deals with an ISOT; in essence the idea is that Ohio upon Congress actually approving its statehood (since Congress forget to actually ratify its statehood in 1803 :V) in 1953 winds up ISOTed... to 1853. Like, the idea here at least would be for one thing exploring the aspects of the Second Great Awakening and Millenarianism for what was happening there and what'd happen as a result, especially wherein for instance the kind of abolitionist movements that had emerged out of the Second Great Awakening. In some ways there's also the fascinating consideration in terms of the religious aspects that would happen after this kind of ISOT considering both of those factors. And that's not even talking about the kind of well... immediate sledgehammer to say lightly that it would cause upon well, what was already going on in terms of well [gestures broadly at existing US history in the 1850s dealing with slavery].

It's in some ways like... a really fascinating question I feel in terms of any kind of ISOT of an 'uptime' state to the 1850s, especially because of the myriad of things that would see the kind of impacts as a result? Like, not even talking about the above, you'd have a massive impact on medicine for instance, and you could be talking in terms of the amount of lives that would be saved with just the germ theory and like, washing your fucking surgical instruments and hands (and not even counting like penicillin for instance). And at the inverse question would be the impacts of disease (which is something I've mused on for a long time for ISOTs even prior to the pandemic) as a result because of the changes and lack of immunity.
 
Well, one example, WW2 was orchestrated by the Templars through their puppets: Hitler, Stalin, Churchill and FDR.

assassinscreed.fandom.com

World War II

World War II, or the Second World War, was a global military conflict lasting from 1 September 1939 to 2 September 1945. The war involved most of the world's nations, including all of the great powers that eventually formed two opposing military alliances: the Allies and the Axis. The conflict...
This is as dumb as 'Jews/Zionists Started the WW2' conspiracy I occasionally encounter, if not as vile.
 
I'm confused. Is the culture not also made up of Humans? What are they doing not here?
When Banks was writing Consider Phlebas, he was arguably a bit too avant-garde for his own good. The book toyed with space opera conventions, and part of that was how he sets up this context that made the reader naturally assume that the setting is our far future, where humans have speciated across the galaxy, but the epilogue reveals the events to happen in our past, and Earth and Homo sapiens are unimportant and totally unconnected to any of it.

They're "humans" in the same sense that Vulcans and Klingons would be called "humans". They follow a common body plan, and at least in the Culture's case they've genetically engineered like 9 founder humanoid species into a single sexually compatible species.
 
When Banks was writing Consider Phlebas, he was arguably a bit too avant-garde for his own good. The book toyed with space opera conventions, and part of that was how he sets up this context that made the reader naturally assume that the setting is our far future, where humans have speciated across the galaxy, but the epilogue reveals the events to happen in our past, and Earth and Homo sapiens are unimportant and totally unconnected to any of it.

They're "humans" in the same sense that Vulcans and Klingons would be called "humans". They follow a common body plan, and at least in the Culture's case they've genetically engineered like 9 founder humanoid species into a single sexually compatible species.

So, Banks set the story a Long Long Time Ago, in a Galaxy Far, Far Away?
 
I think that sounds like a really interesting scenario to explore.
Yeah, it's something I've been toying with a fair bit more as of late.

Like, there's such a broad *scope* of impacts here in terms of the kind of ISOT that I'm just trying to think through as part of it and so forth. It is in some ways a rather interesting quandary as well imho in terms of how to write it and so forth, especially b/c of the potential of the kind of... scope as it were?
 
Yeah, it's something I've been toying with a fair bit more as of late.

Like, there's such a broad *scope* of impacts here in terms of the kind of ISOT that I'm just trying to think through as part of it and so forth. It is in some ways a rather interesting quandary as well imho in terms of how to write it and so forth, especially b/c of the potential of the kind of... scope as it were?

Agreed. There's not enough economic, religious, and cultural AH, to say nothing of epidemiological AH. I've dipped my toe in it a little bit, but never tried to swim. It'd be a challenge to write, no question, but you'd be a legend if you pulled it off.
 
Agreed. There's not enough economic, religious, and cultural AH, to say nothing of epidemiological AH. I've dipped my toe in it a little bit, but never tried to swim. It'd be a challenge to write, no question, but you'd be a legend if you pulled it off.

So much yes.

One of the reasons I love AH is because of its power as an educational tool. Even bad AH has value here. I think there is so much value to AH that approaches changes of the kinds you enumerate.

Might as well toss up an idea here for something I've been toying with a fair bit more as of late, which deals with an ISOT; in essence the idea is that Ohio upon Congress actually approving its statehood (since Congress forget to actually ratify its statehood in 1803 :V) in 1953 winds up ISOTed... to 1853. Like, the idea here at least would be for one thing exploring the aspects of the Second Great Awakening and Millenarianism for what was happening there and what'd happen as a result, especially wherein for instance the kind of abolitionist movements that had emerged out of the Second Great Awakening. In some ways there's also the fascinating consideration in terms of the religious aspects that would happen after this kind of ISOT considering both of those factors. And that's not even talking about the kind of well... immediate sledgehammer to say lightly that it would cause upon well, what was already going on in terms of well [gestures broadly at existing US history in the 1850s dealing with slavery].

It's in some ways like... a really fascinating question I feel in terms of any kind of ISOT of an 'uptime' state to the 1850s, especially because of the myriad of things that would see the kind of impacts as a result? Like, not even talking about the above, you'd have a massive impact on medicine for instance, and you could be talking in terms of the amount of lives that would be saved with just the germ theory and like, washing your fucking surgical instruments and hands (and not even counting like penicillin for instance). And at the inverse question would be the impacts of disease (which is something I've mused on for a long time for ISOTs even prior to the pandemic) as a result because of the changes and lack of immunity.

This isn't a period that I find very interesting, but the way you describe the approach you are looking to take sounds super interesting.

I think the impacts of an ISOT on human culture are very much neglected on most ISOT scenarios.

Also, while I am not aware of the ISOT date falling on any of the major dates picked out in the prophecies that were popular at the time, I wonder if any of those prophecies could be re-interpreted in light of the ISOT?

The religious impacts are going to have profound impacts on 1953 Ohio too. Especially inside groups like the 7th Day Adventists, the Baha'is and Mormons whose down-time compatriots or precursors are all in the middle of important events.

I wonder if any of the major science fiction authors of the time lived in Ohio at that point... All the ones that came to mind lived in East Coast states in 1953.

fasquardon
 
Might as well toss up an idea here for something I've been toying with a fair bit more as of late, which deals with an ISOT; in essence the idea is that Ohio upon Congress actually approving its statehood (since Congress forget to actually ratify its statehood in 1803 :V) in 1953 winds up ISOTed... to 1853. Like, the idea here at least would be for one thing exploring the aspects of the Second Great Awakening and Millenarianism for what was happening there and what'd happen as a result, especially wherein for instance the kind of abolitionist movements that had emerged out of the Second Great Awakening. In some ways there's also the fascinating consideration in terms of the religious aspects that would happen after this kind of ISOT considering both of those factors. And that's not even talking about the kind of well... immediate sledgehammer to say lightly that it would cause upon well, what was already going on in terms of well [gestures broadly at existing US history in the 1850s dealing with slavery].

It's in some ways like... a really fascinating question I feel in terms of any kind of ISOT of an 'uptime' state to the 1850s, especially because of the myriad of things that would see the kind of impacts as a result? Like, not even talking about the above, you'd have a massive impact on medicine for instance, and you could be talking in terms of the amount of lives that would be saved with just the germ theory and like, washing your fucking surgical instruments and hands (and not even counting like penicillin for instance). And at the inverse question would be the impacts of disease (which is something I've mused on for a long time for ISOTs even prior to the pandemic) as a result because of the changes and lack of immunity.

I've always complained that ISoT authors and commentators badly underestimate the power of the words, "Polio Vaccine". :rolleyes:
 
I was talking with someone earlier this week about Syndicalism who knew a fair bit about it, and about how it'd be implemented in practice in the 1920's and 1930's. I think it bears reposting here along with a point made of my own. So take the main tenets of Syndicalism
  • Mass politics
  • Disdain for liberal democracy
  • Revolutionary spontaneity
  • Worship of destruction of the old
  • A perceived 'other' as the enemy both internally and externally
  • Union-dominated politics, back then usually run in all ends by charismatic bosses rather than grey eminences in the backrooms
What do you get when you combine all those things? Mass politics, disdain for democracy and liberalism, an idea that The People (TM) must rise up and throw the old decadent rulers out, worship of destruction and violence, charismatic leaders to take the helm and defend the people and a percieved 'other' who are hell-bent on nothing but the destruction of the nation?
 
I'm not sure how doctrinaire the Syndicalists would actually be like in this lens, they're more spontaneous because their policies can easily seem at a glance as a habitable space for the Anarcho-Communists, the Leninist or the DeLeonist Communists, Guild Socialists, Mutualist Anarchists, vanilla reformist trade-unionists, or even the National Syndicalist fashy types, etc.., etc..

thus Syndicalist organizations in a groundswell of support and major influence in society would be constantly dealing with entryism from these guys, or attempts to convert them to Syndicalism, or attempts to coalition together short-term or long-term, and the questions of whether or not the unions are, as is, the achievement of industrial democracy and worker's ownership, or if they are the foundation to transform into worker's councils and then achieve ownership, or if they are just the organizational resources and memberships to take and move to proper worker's councils and/or party vanguards, and what the hell does worker's ownership even mean, should all be questions frequently the subject of raucous debate.
 
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What do you get when you combine all those things? Mass politics, disdain for democracy and liberalism, an idea that The People (TM) must rise up and throw the old decadent rulers out, worship of destruction and violence, charismatic leaders to take the helm and defend the people and a percieved 'other' who are hell-bent on nothing but the destruction of the nation?

Well, I imagine you get the same thing you'd get for any other ideology you've deliberately slanted the portrayal of to imply they're basically the same thing as fascists. It's just baby's first horseshoe theory.
 
Sorel is not in fact the only person to utter the word syndicalism. Most of the unions who identified as such historically had little in common with him or his tenets. Sorel did inspire national-syndicalism, but without that qualifier, no, those tenets are just bullshit smears.

They were also generally the more participative unions, as opposed to more bureaucratic/leadership based trade unionism.
 
I was talking with someone earlier this week about Syndicalism who knew a fair bit about it, and about how it'd be implemented in practice in the 1920's and 1930's. I think it bears reposting here along with a point made of my own. So take the main tenets of Syndicalism
  • Mass politics
  • Disdain for liberal democracy
  • Revolutionary spontaneity
  • Worship of destruction of the old
  • A perceived 'other' as the enemy both internally and externally
  • Union-dominated politics, back then usually run in all ends by charismatic bosses rather than grey eminences in the backrooms
What do you get when you combine all those things? Mass politics, disdain for democracy and liberalism, an idea that The People (TM) must rise up and throw the old decadent rulers out, worship of destruction and violence, charismatic leaders to take the helm and defend the people and a percieved 'other' who are hell-bent on nothing but the destruction of the nation?
Hold up. I could maybe get the (mis)interpreatation of class warfare as an othering. But where do you get the "worship of destruction of the old" from? Nothing I've ever heard of about syndicallism invoked that.
 
Hold up. I could maybe get the (mis)interpreatation of class warfare as an othering. But where do you get the "worship of destruction of the old" from? Nothing I've ever heard of about syndicallism invoked that.

That sounds more like Futurism than anything, which as far as I can tell didn't give a shit about class or union organizing.

E: Also, Fascism was literally about (among many other things, obviously) nationalistic class collaborationism, and so if you go 'class warfare' that's not fascism, unless you go giga-brained and declare that Millionaires are an exploited minority unjustly blamed like [Insert racial and sexual minorities that the Fascists persecuted.]
 
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Hold up. I could maybe get the (mis)interpreatation of class warfare as an othering. But where do you get the "worship of destruction of the old" from? Nothing I've ever heard of about syndicallism invoked that.

Again, it's the misunderstanding of revolutionary violence as "communism is when you kill rich people, and the more rich people you kill the communistier it is". Think reactionary talking points about Madame le Guillotine and her worshippers, the deranged populist mobs of Paris.
That sounds more like Futurism than anything, which as far as I can tell didn't give a shit about class or union organizing.

Well, there was a bit of crossover between some more nationally-minded Italian syndicalists and the Futurist movement, but given that most of the figures at the center of that crossover would later abandon socialist the socialist to invent fascism, they can't really be called representative of actual socialist syndicalism.
 
Like yeah, some more nationalistic syndicalists in Italy became fascists. Throughout history, most ideologies have had followers of those ideologies who went from that ideology to fascism, without that meaning that actually there are no ideologies except fascism. :V
 
There were the national syndicalists who were Mussolini's political base before the fascists inspired all the landowner's sons to come out of the hills and join the blackshirts, and you could have something similar going on if like the CIO stayed energetic and radicalized and became the victor over the AFL but also ended up adhering firmly to the anti-Communist line and then the far right fringe of that alternate CIO could go on to become something like the Hard Hats meeting the national syndicalists. But those would be the direct enemies of the syndicalists and IWW, stealing away trade workers from them with white racial grievance and macho patriotism.
 
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One POD I've seen discussed surprisingly little is the conquests of Mardavij, who lead an extremely successful campaign in 935 against the local Muslim dynasties with the explicit goal of restoring Zoroastrian rule to the territories of the former Sassanid empire, only to be murdered by one of his slaves.

What if he hadn't been murdered though? How far could he have gone, and what would the dynamics of the Middle East and India look like if he succeeded? How would this change the faith of Zoroastrianism itself?

*cough* @Chehrazad *cough*
 
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honestly idk, mardavij is kinda weird and that entire period has a number of bizarre traits that make it even harder to figure something out. i can try and drag my books out to research an answer, since 10th century islamicate is in fact one of my interests, but honestly mardavij's entire story seems almost purpose-built to cause confusion
 
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