[X] held a mutual respect. You would hesitate to call your actions friendly, hard to when you were a part of the force under Illidan's command. But you were not antagonistic to one another.
[X] Proceed straight to the chamber where Illidan's body is kept.
[X] held a mutual respect. You would hesitate to call your actions friendly, hard to when you were a part of the force under Illidan's command. But you were not antagonistic to one another.
[X] Proceed straight to the chamber where Illidan's body is kept.
Because we need another good Illidari we get along with.
Too bad about the Naga, though.
Adhoc vote count started by King Tharassian on Feb 23, 2018 at 5:21 PM, finished with 88 posts and 9 votes.
[X] held a mutual respect. You would hesitate to call your actions friendly, hard to when you were a part of the force under Illidan's command. But you were not antagonistic to one another.
[X] Proceed straight to the chamber where Illidan's body is kept.
[X] did not get along. You can understand his views, but felt they were too naïve against a foe like the Burning Legion.
[X] Proceed straight to the chamber where Illidan's body is kept.
[X] held a mutual respect. You would hesitate to call your actions friendly, hard to when you were a part of the force under Illidan's command. But you were not antagonistic to one another.
[X] Proceed straight to the chamber where Illidan's body is kept.
[X] held a mutual respect. You would hesitate to call your actions friendly, hard to when you were a part of the force under Illidan's command. But you were not antagonistic to one another.
[X] Proceed straight to the chamber where Illidan's body is kept.
[X] did not get along. You can understand his views, but felt they were too naïve against a foe like the Burning Legion.
[X] Proceed straight to the chamber where Illidan's body is kept.
[X] did not get along. You can understand his views, but felt they were too naïve against a foe like the Burning Legion.
[X] Proceed straight to the chamberwhere Illidan's body is kept.
Why would we not want to have the respect of another of our top allies, again?
Adhoc vote count started by King Tharassian on Feb 23, 2018 at 1:55 PM, finished with 83 posts and 9 votes.
[X] held a mutual respect. You would hesitate to call your actions friendly, hard to when you were a part of the force under Illidan's command. But you were not antagonistic to one another.
[X] Proceed straight to the chamber where Illidan's body is kept.
[X] did not get along. You can understand his views, but felt they were too naïve against a foe like the Burning Legion.
[X] Proceed straight to the chamber where Illidan's body is kept.
People, please stop voting for the "did not get along" option, it is only going to cause us needless strife. The last thing we need right now is another Illidari that is likely to disobey us and cause conflict among our group. We need to have a cordial relation with him in order to make sure our group's unity is intact or else we risk losing Illidan's body to Gul'dan.
Honestly, disliking Atruis is the most IC decision.
Remember what he did: Instead of focusing on the Legion, he spent a considerable time attacking the Illidari and hiring Adventurers to go after them, culminating in the assasination of the Illidari's three instructors; the best and brightest of all demonhunters who were the first to be trained by Illidan, and then went on to train the rest in their arts.
They were the mentors and heroes of all Demonhunters, and Altruis had them murdered because he disliked Illidan.
Instead of walking away, Altruis continuously sabotaged the Illidari, actively hindering their efforts against the Legion.
You can agree with him on Illidan's methods, but from the Demon Hunters' perspective he is a traitor. They joined Illidan to defeat the Legion at any cost. Altruis was unwilling to go that far, and then turned on them. The first can be forgiven, the second cannot.
Those who are supporting the "did not get along option" are doing so because "it's IC". This is does not need to become a true Warcraft timeline, it can easily be an AU. I'd rather have a dependable ally than a possible ticking time bomb because people want our character to make an "IC" decision, when we should be making a smart decision.
Not to mention the fact that people seem to have mixed up "respect" and "buddy-buddy friendship is great." We can respect someone we dislike, just as we can theiretically like someone we do not fully respect. And Stal'rem seems to have joined for the goal of defending people, rather than merely fighting the Legion "at any cost." When you have a view like that, random collateral damage becomes less acceptable and more callous. And I refuse to be a HARD MAN making HARD DECISIONS WHILE HARD. It's a charicature and I like the idea of being someone who is in this situation and still wants to be reasonable.
Take that kind of thing back to WHFB and 40k, because while I like moral ambiguity, blind obedience to a man whose sanity and good intentions are questionable to the moon and back is not "deep." It's zealotry more in-line with the Scarlet Crusade, canon edition, and I don't understand how that kind of blindness can make a fun and interesting character.
Remember what he did: Instead of focusing on the Legion, he spent a considerable time attacking the Illidari and hiring Adventurers to go after them, culminating in the assasination of the Illidari's three instructors; the best and brightest of all demonhunters who were the first to be trained by Illidan, and then went on to train the rest in their arts.
They were the mentors and heroes of all Demonhunters, and Altruis had them murdered because he disliked Illidan.
Instead of walking away, Altruis continuously sabotaged the Illidari, actively hindering their efforts against the Legion.
This isn't defending people, this is being a fucking traitor and focusing in killing our factions, so yeah I don't like the guy and I sure as hell don't respect him.
This isn't defending people, this is being a fucking traitor and focusing in killing our factions, so yeah I don't like the guy and I sure as hell don't respect him.
This isn't defending people, this is being a fucking traitor and focusing in killing our factions, so yeah I don't like the guy and I sure as hell don't respect him.
And how is major consistent collateral damage better?
I admit that I don't exactly like Illidan, but I can at least respect what he wants to do (or says he wants to do, depending on your interpretation). The problem is that the Illidari are his brainchild, with all the flaws that come with that: they do what they want however they want, whenever they want, without accounting for who's in their way or trying to communicate with anyone else. Fighting the Legion is a noble goal, but I feel that extreme casualties as collateral are not an acceptable price, especially when they occur only because of a few individuals deciding what to do without the consent or knowledge of the other party involved.
Illidan and the Illidari just expect to be trusted because they are on their mission, without telling anyone what that mission is. Illidan may (and it may only be "might") have good intentions, but he's terrible at communicating them. His response to Akama turning on him because Illidan seemingly hadn't kept his promise multiple times over? Tear out a piece of his soul to enslave him! Need more troops? Let's forcibly make more fel orcs! Thousands might die? Millions might be saved! His plan may be sound, but the means used to get there, in my opinion, are not.
I don't mean to spit on the character, because I do find him interesting even if I don't like him, but Illidan is a good character, not a good person. The Illidari learned from him, and are thus in the same boat.
And how is major consistent collateral damage better?
I admit that I don't exactly like Illidan, but I can at least respect what he wants to do (or says he wants to do, depending on your interpretation). The problem is that the Illidari are his brainchild, with all the flaws that come with that: they do what they want however they want, whenever they want, without accounting for who's in their way or trying to communicate with anyone else. Fighting the Legion is a noble goal, but I feel that extreme casualties as collateral are not an acceptable price, especially when they occur only because of a few individuals deciding what to do without the consent or knowledge of the other party involved.
Illidan and the Illidari just expect to be trusted because they are on their mission, without telling anyone what that mission is. Illidan may (and it may only be "might") have good intentions, but he's terrible at communicating them. His response to Akama turning on him because Illidan seemingly hadn't kept his promise multiple times over? Tear out a piece of his soul to enslave him! Need more troops? Let's forcibly make more fel orcs! Thousands might die? Millions might be saved! His plan may be sound, but the means used to get there, in my opinion, are not.
I don't mean to spit on the character, because I do find him interesting even if I don't like him, but Illidan is a good character, not a good person. The Illidari learned from him, and are thus in the same boat.
You're definitly right on Illidan, but Blizzard made his plans work out - which makes it hard for most ppl who aren't into deeper lore hard to judge him.
You're definitly right on Illidan, but Blizzard made his plans work out - which makes it hard for most ppl who aren't into deeper lore hard to judge him.
*sigh* I know. I just hate whitewashing and the 'hard men' justification. I like Warhammer, both versions, but they and stories like them have pervaded every genre.
Sometimes I just want a story where something can be wrong and unjustifiable and yet be committed by a character that people like, and have it not be twisted into "what they had to do."
Alright, weekend is over, and my PS4 with Monster Hunter World and PC with WoW are about twenty miles and seven hours away thanks to work. So time for an update! Given the time since the last update I was going to just go ahead and do the update, but with the discussion, I figure another hour of voting in case anyone wants to change their vote since the discussion wouldn't be amiss.
I'm not going to weigh in too much on the discussion itself. I will just say in regards to this:
Sometimes I just want a story where something can be wrong and unjustifiable and yet be committed by a character that people like, and have it not be twisted into "what they had to do."
And various statements like it, that while objectively an action may be wrong and unjustifiable, bear in mind that to the one performing the action it is almost always justifiable. Illidan's actions, from an outside view, or even from the view of most everyone on Azeroth, can be seen as horrible and wrong. But to Illidan, they were completely justified in regards to the end goal of stopping the Legion. Were they? That depends on your own personal view on things.
But then, the same could be said of Sargeras' decisions in regards to stopping the Old Gods, though I think most everyone would agree he went a little bit too far.
I've been trying to write Stal'rem as being more... Level headed than most of the Illidari. Less extremist views, less power hungry, and less edgy. At times I'm worrying that I'm writing his character to be a bit too... Bland, as a result of trying to avoid that, but I find that preferable to writing him as Edgelord McHornface, the Spited Eredar.
Aaanyway! Tally and update will be in about an hour.
[X] held a mutual respect. You would hesitate to call your actions friendly, hard to when you were a part of the force under Illidan's command. But you were not antagonistic to one another.
You and Altruis respected one another, so he was willing enough to go along with your decision. While all Illidari have given up much, some would even say their mortality and humanity(in the sense of how humane they are, not how human they are), becoming demons, maintaining their drive against the Legion can be a difficult thing and any who do so is worth some measure of respect. Some cannot do that, the power corrupting them and making them demonic in manner and action rather than just appearance and perhaps blood.
Altruis saw this happening to Illidan and those who followed him, though you would perhaps argue that is not the case. Altruis, seeing this, broke ties, refusing to give in to the call of the demonic souls he imbued within himself and do the same. Such a strength of character, and willingness to become considered a traitor, for the sake of ones ideals and morals is to be commended. Though certain of his actions after are less so, and prevented any true friendship between the two of you.
While you cannot claim to know his mind, you assume he holds you in the same respect because you never gave in to the drive for power that many others do. You fight the Legion, and give greatly of yourself to do so, but you have not descended to the depths that some others would. Though part of that is due to the fact that your services were often more valuable in the forge or at a workbench than in the field. But you have taken the field enough that there would have been... Opportunities to give in.
Regardless, when you declare that you shall all proceed with haste toward the area where Illidan's body is being kept, to keep it out of Gul'dan's hands. Regardless of anyone's personal feelings about Illidan, self-sacrificing hero fighting the Legion or villain twisted by the power he tried to use to fight... Nobody wants to see what the Legion has planned with his body. And so you all set out.
Legion progress: 30/50
Allies progress: 0/50
Legion rolls 1d20-4
Allies roll 1d20+6(+2 for Warden guide, +2 for skilled scout, +1 for sizable force, +1 for skilled troops)
Legion roll: 0, next roll gains an additional -1
Ally roll: 14
Legion Progress: 30/50
Allies progress: 14/50
Legion roll: 0, next roll gains an additional -4
Ally roll: 8
Legion progress: 30/50
Allies progress: 22/50
Legion roll: 0, no malus on next roll
Ally roll: 26
Legion progress: 30/50
Allies Progress: 48/50
Your group pushes ahead with as great a pace as you feel can be risked. Kor'vas and a couple of the more stealth oriented Illidari and Wardens are employed to scout ahead, picking out the best of available routes as outlined by Saria and the other Wardens who know the way. When you encounter demons they are swiftly dispatched, your scouts ensuring that the route you take contains the lesser demons. A fight with a dreadlord, shivarra, or, Light forbid, a pit lord, would slow you down far too much. As is you only encounter, at worst, some felguards.
You do encounter a hold up, however, in the form of a door that will not open. Saria and the other Wardens assure you that through that door lies the quickest path to the Vault of the Betrayer. You could take another path, but it would add time to your trek. Time you just aren't sure you have.
"Is it some arcane lock? Can we not simply find a key?"
Saria huffs before replying to Altruis, "This door does not lock, creature. It is jammed shut somehow."
Kor'vas speaks up then, though you're letting the noise fade the the background as you step up to the background. "Could we break through? I mean, would that be any quicker than simply finding another path?"
You could have answered that yourself, now that you're looking at the door. It's solid stone, enhanced with lines of metal and arcane magics. Such things are generally designed to be unbreakable. Many craftsmen, however, cannot make a thing perfectly unbreakable. A closer examination reveals certain points of weakness that you can capitalize on.
While the discussion continues behind you, you draw back a fist and with a mighty roar slam it forward, driving it into the door. That first strike sends cracks radiating from the impact of your fist, from one of those weak points. A small movement and you're striking out again, more cracks forming in the door. By this point your allies and troops have fallen silent, and are simply staring at you. One final time your fist draws back and slams into the door, and stone chunks explode into the passage beyond, revealing a support of the hastily constructed fel-iron blockade that is holding it shut. Reaching in you grab the metal and pull, loosening it, before shoving away and sending the weakened metal frame tumbling back from the door.
Pushing the door open you look back at the others and tell them, "The door opens. We go now."
That which was made can be broken(Artisan trait)
For two natural twenties and completing the race between yourselves and Gul'dan with more than twice the Legion's progress, you gain a +2 to break, or otherwise render inoperative, any crafted item.
As you proceed deeper through the prison the number of demons you encounter grow fewer. And finally, after a stretch that is barren of any signs of life, demonic or otherwise, you arrive.
The Vault of the Betrayer is a large chamber, the fel-green crystal containing Illidan's body suspended from chains over a platform that is itself suspended over vast nothingness, as far down as the eye can see. There is no sign of anyone else, and you feel that you have time.
"Well... We made it," Kor'vas says. "Now what?"
"We should take the Betrayer's corpse and his prison and spirit it away elsewhere. I... Do not know where else would be more secure though."
Kayn scoffs at Saria's proposition, shaking his head. "We should break his body free. His soul could find it's way back from the Twisting Nether, and Lord Illidan could lead us in driving the Legion back, and taking the fight to them."
A small argument breaks out over this, though it could become more heated if you do not offer your own insight into the matter. And you must discuss with them how you are going to escape now, one way or the other. Between the Illidari and the Wardens there should be enough arcane and eldritch knowledge to overpower the protections on this place and teleport out, though it would leave everyone greatly drained after leaving. You could also attempt to slip out on foot, though it carries risk of being found and having to fight. Or you could stay here. You know that Gul'dan is on his way here, and while if you take him out in an ambush it wouldn't halt the Legion, it would be a rather severe blow to them.
What to do with Illidan:
[ ] Leave him imprisoned for now. You do not know what state he would be in if he were to return to life, or even if he would. This would be unpopular with the Illidari as a whole and Kayn in particular(somewhat difficult diplomacy check to mitigate reputation loss with either), but the Wardens, Altruis, and Saria would agree with this decision.
[ ] Free him. Illidan is a powerful fighter, and would certainly be useful in the immediate future. Kayn and the Illidari would agree with this decision, though the Wardens, Saria, and Altruis would not(Moderate diplomacy check to mitigate any reputation loss with them). [ ] Shove him over the edge! Probably not the best idea.
[ ] Write-in. Have another idea: Write it in, results would vary dependent on what the write-in is.
The Escape:
[ ] You and yours portal out through portals of your own making and make your way to another location. Though this means the Vault would fall to the Legion.
-[ ] Kor'vas suggests one of the capital cities. Getting yourselves in with one of the factions, the Alliance or the Horde, will grant you some powerful allies right away.
--[ ] Write-in which city
-[ ] Kayn suggests a return to the Black Temple. It wouldn't be too hard to shore up defenses again, and any stragglers who weren't captured by the Wardens would know to go there.
-[ ] Saria seems reluctant to leave the Vault to the Legion, but suggests that if having to flee, that they head to Light's Hope Chapel. The Argent Crusade would be a powerful ally, and a good place of refuge.
-[ ] You decide somewhere else.(Write in location, and preferably why.)
[ ] Wait in ambush. This carries risks, of course. But the chance to slay Gul'dan is too much to pass up, and it would keep the Vault from Legion hands if you are successful, letting the Wardens maintain their prison and stronghold both, and giving you a safe place to prepare for your next steps.
[ ] A portal opens in the air from the Kirin-Tor, with the voice of Khadgar telling you to hurry through. Canon escape.
Requires a total of 50 to get Illidan and get free.
1d10 Upgraded to 1d20 for choosing to gather forces.
Current Progress: 31
Roll 1d20-6: 4
Gul'dan says, "I'm pretty sure we've gone down this hall before..."
Cordana says, "... No we haven't."
Total progress so far: 35/50
[X] Free him. Illidan is a powerful fighter, and would certainly be useful in the immediate future. Kayn and the Illidari would agree with this decision, though the Wardens, Saria, and Altruis would not(Moderate diplomacy check to mitigate any reputation loss with them).
[X] Wait in ambush. This carries risks, of course. But the chance to slay Gul'dan is too much to pass up, and it would keep the Vault from Legion hands if you are successful, letting the Wardens maintain their prison and stronghold both, and giving you a safe place to prepare for your next steps.
-[X] Spend the remaining time making traps. If possible, dummy up Illidan's prison so Gul'dan wastes his time on a fake. Bonus if you can drop the fake into the bottomless pit mid fight.
[X] Free him. Illidan is a powerful fighter, and would certainly be useful in the immediate future. Kayn and the Illidari would agree with this decision, though the Wardens, Saria, and Altruis would not(Moderate diplomacy check to mitigate any reputation loss with them).
[X] Wait in ambush. This carries risks, of course. But the chance to slay Gul'dan is too much to pass up, and it would keep the Vault from Legion hands if you are successful, letting the Wardens maintain their prison and stronghold both, and giving you a safe place to prepare for your next steps.
-[X] Spend the remaining time making traps. If possible, dummy up Illidan's prison so Gul'dan wastes his time on a fake. Bonus if you can drop the fake into the bottomless pit mid fight.
[X] Free him. Illidan is a powerful fighter, and would certainly be useful in the immediate future. Kayn and the Illidari would agree with this decision, though the Wardens, Saria, and Altruis would not(Moderate diplomacy check to mitigate any reputation loss with them).
[X] Wait in ambush. This carries risks, of course. But the chance to slay Gul'dan is too much to pass up, and it would keep the Vault from Legion hands if you are successful, letting the Wardens maintain their prison and stronghold both, and giving you a safe place to prepare for your next steps.
-[X] Spend the remaining time making traps. If possible, dummy up Illidan's prison so Gul'dan wastes his time on a fake. Bonus if you can drop the fake intothe bottomless pit mid fight.
[X] Free him. Illidan is a powerful fighter, and would certainly be useful in the immediate future. Kayn and the Illidari would agree with this decision, though the Wardens, Saria, and Altruis would not(Moderate diplomacy check to mitigate any reputation loss with them).
[X] Wait in ambush. This carries risks, of course. But the chance to slay Gul'dan is too much to pass up, and it would keep the Vault from Legion hands if you are successful, letting the Wardens maintain their prison and stronghold both, and giving you a safe place to prepare for your next steps.
-[X] Spend the remaining time making traps. If possible, dummy up Illidan's prison so Gul'dan wastes his time on a fake. Bonus if you can drop the fake into the bottomless pit mid fight.
[X] Free him. Illidan is a powerful fighter, andwould certainly be useful in the immediate future. Kayn and the Illidari would agree with this decision, though the Wardens, Saria, and Altruis would not(Moderate diplomacy check to mitigate any reputation loss with them).
[X] Wait in ambush. This carries risks, of course. But the chance to slay Gul'dan is too much to pass up, and it would keep the Vault from Legion hands if you are successful, lettingthe Wardens maintain their prison and stronghold both, and giving you a safe place to prepare for your next steps.
-[X] Spend the remaining time making traps. If possible, dummy up Illidan's prison so Gul'dan wastes his time on a fake. Bonus if you candrop the fake into the bottomless pit mid fight.
[X] Free him. Illidan is a powerful fighter, and would certainly be useful in the immediate future. Kayn and the Illidari would agree with this decision, though the Wardens, Saria, and Altruis would not(Moderate diplomacy check to mitigate any reputation loss with them).
[X] Wait in ambush. This carries risks, of course. But the chance to slay Gul'dan is too much to pass up, and it would keep the Vault from Legion hands if you are successful, letting the Wardens maintain their prison and stronghold both, and giving you a safe place to prepare for your next steps.
-[X] Spend the remaining time making traps. If possible, dummy up Illidan's prison so Gul'dan wastes his time on a fake. Bonus if you can drop the fake intothe bottomless pit mid fight.
Wouldnt freeing Illidan right now potetialy create a rift between the wardens and illidari. I'm assuming the Illidari will want to go with any plan Illidan makes, the Wardens might be less enthusiastic.
Although considering we have Gul'dan coming up, i would certainly like to have someone like Illidan with us.
How much power does he have immediatly after freeing him? Like out of his max or something.
