Ad Astra ex Lutum

[]Zeltzin Class Courier: An 18th generation hull that was built as a follow-on to the Itzcuih class with several improvements and as a far heavier ship. The class comprises thirty ships in total with a defining feature of a large, arguably oversized magnetic fusion drive that runs beyond the length of the primary hull. A lower fuel fraction is countered by significantly improved efficiency in propulsion compared to the Itzcuih with a full quarter of the 4kt ship taken up by her drive assembly. The hull itself is going to be sold without weapons as she has already been stripped of armament but an add-on array can be added to give it a purpose as a fleet scout and escort. (-12B XCU per Vessel)

A modern, solid courier that we need to pick to replace our shitbucket courier ship (so we can strip it for parts and look at all its bits). Buying two or three of them will be needed for diplomatic and department 4 duties. They're also disarmed, but pulse lasers is something we can procure quite easily so thats not a huge issue.

[]Itzlan Class Corvette: Conventional, light at 8kt, cheap, and typically used as a mixture between a frigate and a corvette due to copious internal volume onboard behind the primary prow shield. In her pre-refit configuration, a standard ship of the Itzlan class has almost all of her internal volume dedicated to missiles with some left for crew spaces and drive fuel. Armor on the Itzlan is thin even compared to other corvettes of the 17th generation but several of the three hundred strong class's ships have been converted to marine carriers and orbital patrol craft with some of the spare builds serving out as fast passenger liners. Purchase considerations will center on the amount of ordinance to buy, or if to even buy them with the ordinance as the metallic hydrogen missiles make up the majority of the price. (-4B to -16B XCU per Vessel)

A seemingly solid 17th gen Corvette. Im very meh on this design though, mostly because we dont have the ability to produce metallic hydrogen missiles. Even pushing for that capability its going to take probably 10ish years to fix that, so what is left is an old as balls hull without anything special going for it. There seems to be enough internal volume to mess around with, but the next ship on the list is better if we want to do that...

[]Oltl Class Frigate: Obsolescent in every way that matters as an early 17th generation ship but a very common class produced in the immediate aftermath of the War of the Baslu Liberation in vast numbers with many vessels kept in service across many navies. Over two and a half thousand 11kt ships were produced over the two decades after the war with conversions existing of the class towards either light destroyers or very heavy high-capability corvettes. Already existing modernization packages with improved drives exist and variations with and without modern particle beams are a regular item that can be purchased. The class's call to fame is an armor scheme that functions against the close defense systems of contemporary corvettes and with a drive modernization, they represent an older ship that remains partially competitive. More importantly than that, they are cheap in the extreme with many surplus sellers. (-2B to -10B XCU per Vessel)

Early 17th gen frigate, clearly a highly successful design back in its days but now feeling the age. The standout feature are very reasonable prices for modernized variants, and bargain bin prices for unmodernized variants. This is the frigate we should pick; standardizing our imported frigates around this design would make it so much easier to get good supply chains going.

[]Nelli Class Frigate: A later built in the 17th generation and arguably a transitional design that was modernized to a 19th generation standard due to generally unreliable drives. Original unmodified variations do not exist raising the price on the ship with the Neli class having thin armor for a frigate but coming in at only 9kt of mass. The primary armament is an extended particle accelerator with a vast secondary laser bank made to negate many of the advantages of planetary environments through a vast power system onboard. Purchasing up to thirty of them can be arranged as it has found some use as a mixed-purpose fast escort for newer ships but the vast majority of the class is likely to remain in naval service. (-8B to -15B XCU per Vessel)

A more modern, if problematic design, however modernization sees it still in service with the Sovereignty. Its main claim to fame seems to be an extensive pulse laser battery for PD against missiles. This makes it better at fighting in the orbits of hostile planets, but that is not a capability we really care for all that much. Id pass on this one.

[]Metztli Class Destroyer: A comparatively new 18th generation destroyer that was built as a transitory stage and for the deliberate hunting of cruiser-sized vessels on a light 16kt package. Her particle beams are not the most advanced neutral systems but the heavy ion systems on board are adequate for destroying up to the most modern of cruisers. Where the class suffers is in the drive and specifically in their unreliability and light armor even for a destroyer class. Most of the particle beam is nearly exposed to space in the extended hull behind the wedge and the ship is closer to a long dart than a more well-rounded warship. Similar classes are heavily in service in both the Baslu and PRLM militaries but the Xolotlans consider the all forward "narrow" destroyer to be a partial dead end. The issue with the sale is that all hulls have been stripped of their particle beams, leaving a mediocre hull that could slot a massive system. (-12B XCU per Vessel)

A problematic 18th gen destroyer, made more so by the stripping of its main armament. This one leans heavily on being a cruiser hunter, but given the PRLM seems more fond of destroyers I dont think thats a needed capability. The fact that we need to develop our own particle beam for this is what breaks the camels back imo. While we want to start domestic programs there, our first examples will be garbage. Anything we build pulse lasers for early on should not be relied upon in the main combat fleet. Therefor I'd pass on this one aswell.

[]Ixhuatlan Class Destroyer: Part of a balanced destroyer concept that is arguably a light cruiser built without many of the accommodations or long-duration provisions rather than a conventional destroyer. She is shaped in a similar way to the Metztli but even longer, forming one direction on an armored lance that can resist fire from anything lighter than a light cruiser. Weaponry is a normal mixed-mode beam that runs her length with the capability to threaten even the heavier end of cruisers at closer ranges and high closing speeds. As a part of the 18th generation and coming in at 18kt she is a light cruiser in all respects if over-gunned and under-armored. Around twenty hulls are available for sale with all components integrated leaving the class as a prime opportunity for purchase if it wasn't for the comparatively high price. (-30B XCU per Vessel)

Another 18th gen destroyer, but a much more successful one. The mixed-mode beam will be useful, giving it extra range against the lighter ships we expect to face from the PRLM yet still able to do the cruiser hunter role if need be. A 'light cruiser in all respects' but focused on system defense and fleet battles is perfect for our needs, since that should allow it to overmatch PRLM destroyers. There is a small premium to pay here, but for what we get it seems very fair.

[]Acalan Class Destroyer Raider: As with many ships of the 17th generation the Acalan is built around her engine with a 16kt vessel capable of deployments for up to two years with luxurious accommodations that can be rationalized with starch beds. Her oversized drive put her efficiency and acceleration profiles on par with modern frigates and above any other warship short of a courier. The sensor arrays onboard are not being sold with the ship but this is considered acceptable as domestic systems are not that significantly worse than imported ones. The main claim to fame for the class is a full frigate-sized particle accelerator and the armor to fight a single frigate directly in an emergency. The class is aging right now but that makes it cheap, especially as the Xolotlan military is moving to scrap all forty ships, repurposing a few to peaceful SIGINT craft. (-14B XCU per Vessel)

Cheap 17th Gen Destroyer Raider. Fights like a frigate, but can sustain operations like a light cruiser. This thing seems to be made to hunt shipping, and in wolf-packs overwhelm exposed and spread out frigate escorts in order to hunt more shipping. We'd have to make our own sensor systems but that does not seem to be a huge issue. While less useful in a system defense role, it has some extra utility as long range patrol vessels, or even makeshift explorers.

[]Teuila Class Light Cruiser: An early 19th generation ship with a neutral particle beam and several innovations in propulsion bus and internals. One of the flagships for the 19th generation her main issues have come in the form of a 26kt hull capable of patrols of up to a year's length and engaging any ship that is of a similar weight size. The class has exited production due to technical issues with the drives and a larger-than-expected maintenance requirement eliminating the class from the originally designed raiding role. As a defensive warship though she is fast and heavily armored compared to ships of her mass. The largest downsize comes in the under-sized particle accelerator as the original class promised to match the power of more advanced designs with a compact twinned neutral charge accelerator that could not be entirely delivered on. (-95B XCU per Vessel)

An actual, honest to god modern, 19th gen light cruiser. This one seems slightly problematic, doctrinally confused and with an undersized particle accelerator, but it would probably be an excellent frigate and destroyer killer. Especially since its using the most modern netrual charge accelerator design. This would be a very hefty tech package in itself, so I would strongly consider grabbing it, keeping it in service for 5-10 years as we build up a stronger navy then stripping it for parts to try and steal all its goodies.

[]Teinoch Class Cruiser: A heavy cruiser built to incorporate the lessons learned in the war of the Baslu Secession and practically the example of mid-17th generation heavy cruisers. The hull itself has served with the military since then receiving several class-wide standardized refits with the current examples getting pushed towards mothball and now on sale. As a 38kt ship, she is less mobile than any of her modern contemporaries but is armored competitively with an extended wedge design more appropriate to 18th-generation battleships. This all serves to fit a massive mixed-mode particle beam capable of matching the engagement ranges of warships far more advanced than the original class. Standard refit packages have not yet been developed for the ship but for orders in significant volume, it will almost certainly be possible to insist on alternative drives or weaponry onboard, or even for the purchase of stripped hulls. (-18B to -60B XCU per Vessel)

Solid, if old 17th gen heavy cruisers. For system defense it should be solid, if not strictly optimal since PRLM destroyer doctrine would be designed to fight ships like these. There seems to be some issues with standardization of refit packages though. In addition, there will probably be some issues with actually maintaining and sustaining ships these big, even in our own system.

[]Xopin Class Deep Space Cruiser: Conceived of as a mid-18th generation hunter of capital ships the Xopin is practically a capital ship in her own right. Weighing in at 47kt and with drives directly cloned off a capital ship she is fast for her class, matching the acceleration of contemporary light cruisers. In armament the massive kilometer and a half-long hull mounts a single linear particle accelerator behind a heavily back-sloped armor prow, enabling firepower on the level of contemporary battleships. The class's main failing comes in the form of armor as protection across the front aspect is also comparable to contemporary light cruisers just with better geometry. Expensive and with a massive dual-mode particle accelerator the Xopin poses a direct threat to any ship currently in service but it serves more as a specialty weapon than a general-purpose tool. (-175B XCU per Vessel)

A battlecruiser. I dont think its worth trying to fit this one in our budget, and any PRLM destroyer fleet would probably be chomping at the bits to destroy her. Pass

Here would be my suggestions. I favour System Defense Light quite a bit. I'll make a proper plan very soon.

[]System Defense Light
-[]Zeltzin Class Courier:
-[]Oltl Class Frigate:
-[]Ixhuatlan Class Destroyer:
-[]Teuila Class Light Cruiser:

[]System Defense Heavy
-[]Zeltzin Class Courier:
-[]Oltl Class Frigate:
-[]Teuila Class Light Cruiser:
-[]Teinoch Class Cruiser:

[]System Raiders
-[]Zeltzin Class Courier:
-[]Oltl Class Frigate:
-[]Acalan Class Destroyer Raider:
-[]Teuila Class Light Cruiser:
 
[X]Plan System Defense
-[X]Keep with the Design (-50B Or)
-[X]General Aerospace Bid (-40B Or)
-[X]Hire Foreign Expertise (-300B Or)
-[X]Zeltzin Class Courier
-[X]Oltl Class Frigate
-[X]Ixhuatlan Class Destroyer
-[X]Teuila Class Light Cruiser

This seems like a sensible set of decisions. As long as we dont start any new procurement the budget should hold handily until the next cycle. If we want to make decent power armor now and in the future we need to invest into technical development, so I would not throw in the towel and simplify immediately. The General Aerospace Bid seems to good to pass up considering how heavily we will rely on retrofitted Sovereignty ships for our navy, even if the suit itself seems slightly meh. Foreign Expertise for the light laser rifle is a great tech transfer that will help with a lot more than just the light laser rifle, in addition to letting us sidestep a small political landmine. When it comes to ships, look at my own post above to see the reasoning.

Edit: With @Dessard 's point about using the Acalan as a courier, here's a variant that does it. I dont think this is a good long term solution, but short term its okay.

[X]Plan System Defense And Raiders
-[X]Keep with the Design (-50B Or)
-[X]General Aerospace Bid (-40B Or)
-[X]Hire Foreign Expertise (-300B Or)
-[X]Oltl Class Frigate
-[X]Ixhuatlan Class Destroyer
-[X]Acalan Class Destroyer Raider:
-[X]Teuila Class Light Cruiser
 
Last edited:
[X]Plan System Defense
-[X]Keep with the Design (-50B Or)
-[X]General Aerospace Bid (-40B Or)
-[X]Hire Foreign Expertise (-300B Or)
-[X]Zeltzin Class Courier
-[X]Oltl Class Frigate
-[X]Ixhuatlan Class Destroyer
-[X]Teuila Class Light Cruiser

I agree with Adronio's assessment, my choices are focused on acquiring on slightly outdated yet still competitive ships, with the acquisition of the 19th generation Light Cruiser as a hefty technology package.

Anyway, we want to improve our domestic expertise in developing power armor, it will be expensive but the two options are first generation roll-out of Seelie suits in a limited fashion. This is the learn to crawl before learning to walk phase, most of this generation would likely be obsolete in the next two budget cycles anyway.

Given that we plan to use Xolotlan ship designs we should go for the General Aerospace naval PA for cost-savings, we will not need to refit our ships in an extensive manner.

Edit:

[X]Plan System Defense And Raiders
 
Last edited:
[X]Plan Wolfpack
-[X]Keep with the Design (50B Or)
-[X]General Aerospace Bid (40B Or)
-[X]Hire Foreign Expertise (300B Or)
-[X]Oltl Class Frigate
-[X]Ixhuatlan Class Destroyer
-[X]Acalan Class Destroyer Raider

I don't agree that tech transfer is a worthwhile reason for getting the cruiser - we could probably do better with a couple of destroyers and a foreign factory. Unless we plan to really make use of its range and flagship equipment, which I don't think we really have a massive need for, it doesn't seem worth the huge price. The Ixhuatlans are mentioned to be like a CL without the long-duration provisions, so I don't think the cruiser really has the in-system delta-V advantage that could otherwise potentially make it worth it for hunting raiders.

This plan includes the Zeltzin class since people want it, but frankly I think we'd be better off just buying more Acalans and using them in the same role - somewhat slower and not as fancy but with a lot more other utility.
 
Last edited:
[X]Plan System Defense Heavy
-[X]Keep with the Design (-50B Or)
-[X]General Aerospace Bid (-40B Or)
-[X]Hire Foreign Expertise (-300B Or)
-[X]Oltl Class Frigate
-[X]Acalan Class Destroyer Raider
-[X]Teuila Class Light Cruiser
-[X]Teinoch Class Cruiser

I would like to have some heavy cruisers to anchor the fleet around as well and not have a single light cruiser be the only large combatant we have. Using the DDRs as couriers is also a valid idea.
 
Last edited:
This plan includes the Zeltzin class since people want it, but frankly I think we'd be better off just buying more Acalans and using them in the same role - somewhat slower and not as fancy but with a lot more other utility.
Hm looking closely at prices/descriptions I think this is definitely on to something. The DDRs are only 2B more expensive than the couriers, and while they're slightly slower we don't really NEED ultra-mega-top speed to shuttle diplomats around, while still having the range and extra crew/cargo space to perform a courier's mission during peacetime but still being a warship when we need it during wartime. I think I support ditching the couriers and just buying some extra DDRs to fill that niche, 4 DDRs would be a lot more useful than 2 DDRs and 2 couriers for basically the same price.
 
[X]Plan System Defense And Raiders
I assume the plan is buying the cheap 2B Oltl Class Frigate? since it does not mention how much is it paying for it,
 
A problematic 18th gen destroyer, made more so by the stripping of its main armament. This one leans heavily on being a cruiser hunter, but given the PRLM seems more fond of destroyers I dont think thats a needed capability. The fact that we need to develop our own particle beam for this is what breaks the camels back imo. While we want to start domestic programs there, our first examples will be garbage. Anything we build pulse lasers for early on should not be relied upon in the main combat fleet. Therefor I'd pass on this one aswell.
I want to push back against this actually, the Metz is the perfect ship for us to fit our first generation particle beams on. The weapons are going to be comparatively pretty shit no matter how hard we try, yeah, but the Metz in particular gives us an easy way to compensate for that which no other class offered here really does:

The volume set aside for that particle beam is fucking massive.

This gives us a direct way to accept performance trade-offs in a way that doesn't overly effect the ship as a whole. When we inevitably come to a situation where our R&D says "we can't match the overall capabilities of their beams," the answer to that is just going "okay can we match the performance if we make it very bulky with lots of extra capacitors and other systems?" A particle beam system that has comparable range and impact to foreign weapons but gets that by needing to be 2-3x the normal size for a beam of that class would be something I'd call "pretty shit" comparatively from our perspective. But that doesn't really matter to whoever's on the receiving end, it's still going to blast them with a high power beam closer to what our neighbors are working with. And the Metz with that massive slot for it's particle beam system is perfect for accepting such a "garbage" system without further compromises to the ship's performance.

Hm looking closely at prices/descriptions I think this is definitely on to something. The DDRs are only 2B more expensive than the couriers, and while they're slightly slower we don't really NEED ultra-mega-top speed to shuttle diplomats around, while still having the range and extra crew/cargo space to perform a courier's mission during peacetime but still being a warship when we need it during wartime. I think I support ditching the couriers and just buying some extra DDRs to fill that niche, 4 DDRs would be a lot more useful than 2 DDRs and 2 couriers for basically the same price.
I am less than sold on this myself. Physically? The DDR can probably go carry stuff between us and the various powers. But if we're using them to replace the current courier in our diplomatic service then we've got to deal with the political optics too, and that means we're asking people to accept us sending a raider deep into their territory.

[X]Plan: Tightening the Belt
-[X]Simplify Movement Systems: (-0B Or)
-[X]UNISA Bid: (-20B Or)
-[X]Hire Foreign Expertise: (-300B Or)
-[X]Zeltzin Class Courier:
-[X]Oltl Class Frigate:
-[X]Acalan Class Destroyer Raider:
-[X]Teinoch Class Cruiser:

[X]Plan: Tightening the Belt, Practicing Particle Beams
-[X]Simplify Movement Systems: (-0B Or)
-[X]UNISA Bid: (-20B Or)
-[X]Hire Foreign Expertise: (-300B Or)
-[X]Zeltzin Class Courier:
-[X]Oltl Class Frigate:
-[X]Metztli Class Destroyer:
-[X]Teinoch Class Cruiser:

[X]Plan System Defense

Approval voting this plan just to have something that actually gets us the couriers.
 
Last edited:
I want to push back against this actually, the Metz is the perfect ship for us to fit our first generation particle beams on. The weapons are going to be comparatively pretty shit no matter how hard we try, yeah, but the Metz in particular gives us an easy way to compensate for that which no other class offered here really does:

The volume set aside for that particle beam is fucking massive.

This gives us a direct way to accept performance trade-offs in a way that doesn't overly effect the ship as a whole. When we inevitably come to a situation where our R&D says "we can't match the overall capabilities of their beams," the answer to that is just going "okay can we match the performance if we make it very bulky with lots of extra capacitors and other systems?" A particle beam system that has comparable range and impact to foreign weapons but gets that by needing to be 2-3x the normal size for a beam of that class would be something I'd call "pretty shit" comparatively from our perspective. But that doesn't really matter to whoever's on the receiving end, it's still going to blast them with a high power beam closer to what our neighbors are working with. And the Metz with that massive slot for it's particle beam system is perfect for accepting such a "garbage" system without further compromises to the ship's performance.


I am less than sold on this myself. Physically? The DDR can probably go carry stuff between us and the various powers. But if we're using them to replace the current courier in our diplomatic service then we've got to deal with the political optics too, and that means we're asking people to accept us sending a raider deep into their territory.

[X]Plan: Tightening the Belt
-[X]Simplify Movement Systems: (-0B Or)
-[X]UNISA Bid: (-20B Or)
-[X]Hire Foreign Expertise: (-300B Or)
-[X]Zeltzin Class Courier:
-[X]Oltl Class Frigate:
-[X]Acalan Class Destroyer Raider:
-[X]Teinoch Class Cruiser:

[X]Plan: Tightening the Belt, Practicing Particle Beams
-[X]Simplify Movement Systems: (-0B Or)
-[X]UNISA Bid: (-20B Or)
-[X]Hire Foreign Expertise: (-300B Or)
-[X]Zeltzin Class Courier:
-[X]Oltl Class Frigate:
-[X]Metztli Class Destroyer:
-[X]Teinoch Class Cruiser:
Space is very lawless so it would be more concerning that if the ship that was picking up there important diplomat team was defenseless you know...
 
It seems like the Worker's Party is turning away from electoralism and heading down the path of revolution. I know it's antithetical to many on this board, but we should probably spend an action next turn making sure that they aren't doing anything stupid like trying to contactthe Popular Republic for support. We narrowly avoided a civil war during the last alien invasion, we definitely would not enjoy having an uprising during the next one. Not to mention that the WP, having actually been in government, likely has access to much more valuable information than the PSC ever did.
 
Space is very lawless so it would be more concerning that if the ship that was picking up there important diplomat team was defenseless you know...
Yeah, we'd be putting some light laser defenses on the courier. But I think there's a difference between sending a light courier with some lasers for self defense into your territory, and sending a raiding warship 4x the mass that's purpose built to fuck up your shipping and be as hard to catch as possible while doing it.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, we'd be putting some light laser defenses on the courier. But I think there's a difference between sending a light courier with some lasers for self defense into your territory, and sending a raiding warship 4x the mass that's purpose built to fuck up your shipping and be as hard to catch as possible while doing it.
Most space Nations can carpet nuke the elfs planet to Ash in a short amount of time so I can imagine that if they have any concerns they would pointly remind them of that before letting the ship in.
 
Back
Top