RogueInquisitor
Unexpected!
Why go for more zombies? We have a decent bunch of meatshields to tarpit attackers, why don't we get some skeletons for offense, and maybe get them some weapons too.
A Necromancer In a World Of Light
- Thread starter prince84
- Start date
- Original Fantasy Modern
- Location
- Australia
[X] Go to ground
-[X] Watch Over The Lair: Even if they are doing nothing else you can still have your forces watch over your lair.
--[X] 20 zombies
-[X] Raise the undead:
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
-[X] Watch Over The Lair: Even if they are doing nothing else you can still have your forces watch over your lair.
--[X] 20 zombies
-[X] Raise the undead:
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
FullNothingness
Mostly DHMO.
Cost mostly. Skeletons cost quite a bit more parts while they aren't particularly much better at fighting than zombies from what I can tell. Since we have an upgrade on our zombies already I'm not sure they would even be desirable if they weren't more expensive. Sure we could try to upgrade the skeletons too... But that would be two more actions on average.
ConfusedPotato
Unverified Verifier
- Location
- Australia
[X] Go to ground
We might want to get the gate opened next turn so we know what's back there.
We might want to get the gate opened next turn so we know what's back there.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Hello, all! Got pulled in by a link on one of the QM's other quests.
So... right now, we have the folks in the Shadow Sanctuary kind of freaked out, and the patrols up and running. There's a good chance they'll come looking for us. That's not so hot. Also, in more meta news, we've received confirmation that we should pay attention to offhand warnings in the turn text, and that actions can have consequences above that which is specifically mentioned. Good to know.
Right now... I think we need to get our combat capability up. I can see the argument for going all-in on the zombies, but I think we need to grind on magic missile too. The zombies really aren't good at dealing damage, and that only gets worse as they face off against foes with better defenses than the intro rats.
I'm also thinking that we'll want a *few* skeletons. In particular, having a couple squads of skeleton archers to deal the damage from the back while the zombies act as screening elements would probably be worthwhile (once we put in the research to improve our skeletons like that)
So... right now, we have the folks in the Shadow Sanctuary kind of freaked out, and the patrols up and running. There's a good chance they'll come looking for us. That's not so hot. Also, in more meta news, we've received confirmation that we should pay attention to offhand warnings in the turn text, and that actions can have consequences above that which is specifically mentioned. Good to know.
Right now... I think we need to get our combat capability up. I can see the argument for going all-in on the zombies, but I think we need to grind on magic missile too. The zombies really aren't good at dealing damage, and that only gets worse as they face off against foes with better defenses than the intro rats.
I'm also thinking that we'll want a *few* skeletons. In particular, having a couple squads of skeleton archers to deal the damage from the back while the zombies act as screening elements would probably be worthwhile (once we put in the research to improve our skeletons like that)
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- Location
- Canada
[X] Plot and Plan
-[X] Watch Over The Lair: Even if they are doing nothing else you can still have your forces watch over your lair.
--[X] 20 zombies
-[X] Raise the undead:
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
-[X] Watch Over The Lair: Even if they are doing nothing else you can still have your forces watch over your lair.
--[X] 20 zombies
-[X] Raise the undead:
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
FullNothingness
Mostly DHMO.
Magic missile would be good to upgrade... But we just haven't been having much luck with it. All our research is stuff with low odds of success and since we only have two actions we can use for it research is slow.
As for the skeletons, yeah they could be decent if they had bows or guns. That would be something to invest in. However the upgrade never mentions range so it probably only means giving them sharp or pointy things. Just a small damage buff is IMO probably not worth the time we would spend researching and would be needed to build the skeletons too.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
My guess is that skeleton weapon upgrades are a progressive thing. First, we figure out how to give them sharp and pointy things, and we work our way up to skeletal archers. Skeletal mages would probably be down a different tree.
TN 65 means, on average, we'd need to spend three actions on it. So far, we've only failed twice... and once we do get it, ti's a permanent and significant boost to our overall combat ability that applies pretty much at all times. Yes, it's expensive, but it's not "give up in despair" expensive... and a tarpit with no teeth isn't all that useful in combat.
Now, I'll note that right now, our facilities are *terrible*. We need to improve that. A better lab would help out quite a bit with things like magic missile... but just raising a bunch of zombies isn't going to get us that. We need to open up our options a bit - get some better books, get some more research reagents, and so forth. So... where can we explore?
- Goblin tunnels. Still a good idea, but we need to head there in person (the zombies will just get lost, and they might miss some of the really good stuff. Will require upgrading combat ability. Also, it's possible that we can recruit a one or two of the little blighters, if they have anything resembling competence.
- Just go topside and try to learn about the area/interact. Might be better to wait a turn or two for the furor to die down. Safer if we've upgraded magic missile first.
- Various targeted raids topside once we've identified areas with people who won't be missed.
- Check behind the Gate: *Definitely* need better combat power. I'm thinking we do this after we've dealt with the goblins.
As far as upgrading combat ability, I'm thinking that to call ourselves any sort of real threat, we'll want to be at or near our control limit, with an upgraded magic missile. That's why I want to work on improving it now - because we can't effectively research it more than once per turn without maybe wasting it. We go missile/zombie until the research finished, and then switch to full zombie (if necessary) for the rest. I understand that researchign the magic missile improvement is frustrating, but from the looks of things, a pile of zombies alone - even a large pile of zombies - is basically inadequate for any sort of real foe, especially if they're at all inclined to run away (they will be) and we want their bodyparts (we do).
@prince84, what *would* it take to upgrade our facilities? Also, are things like skeleton archers gated behind upgrading skeletal weaponry? Would it be possible to develop skeletal mages, and are *they* gated behind skeletal weaponry?
Eh? I'll put my vote where my mouth is
[x] Plan Balanced Approach
-[X] Watch Over The Lair: Even if they are doing nothing else you can still have your forces watch over your lair.
--[X] 20 zombies
-[X] Raise the undead:
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
-[X] Upgrade Spell: You know how to cast spells but the spells could be better so fix that.
--[X] Magic Missile LV2
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FullNothingness
Mostly DHMO.
There wasn't an upgrade locked behind the zombie upgrade though. So I'm not so sure about things being locked behind the skeleton research.
Regarding the MM upgrade... Regrettably the world is not a just place, already having failed twice does not make succeeding this time any more likely. It is still liable to take a long time.
As for exploring I agree we want to start getting some stuff done. I'm not necessarily convinced the goblin tunnels and hat lies behind the gate are entirely different places though. However I'm not sure there aren't time constraints we don't know about yet so I'm hesitant to assume we can keep preparing endlessly. I'm going for the zombies because the are IMO the fastest way to get our combat strength up. Even if they aren't particularly great unit as such we have a very nice flat bonus on them (+15 for graveborn) and a lesser bonus for the extra armor. These bonuses encourage getting as many of them as possible IMO. As a perk by getting the minions first we improve our number of available actions if something comes up or if we feel we can start doing stuff safely again.
RogueInquisitor
Unexpected!
If we oversee the zombies while they harvest in the goblin tunnels, we can probably mitigate the navigation problems, and keep accumulating resources without undue risk of exposure to the authorities. We don't know how long this state of heightened alert will last, and we don't have the network to either find out reliably, or gain enough intel to work around them. Our resources are slim enough as it is, and I don't like the lost time simply hunkering down costs us.
FullNothingness
Mostly DHMO.
The thing is that we have plenty of materials and gold for the forseeable future. We need a way to get more parts. And unless we are willing to send our minions out on a killing spree on their own (which would probably be a bad idea IMO) we need our personal actions for other things far more than just harvesting.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
There wasn't an upgrade that we can currently access, no. That doesn't mean that later upgrades won't be dependent on it. Still, your general point holds. We're unlikely to get skeletal archers at this tech tier.
You miss my point. we would have had to be *lucky* to get it this early. You don't get to say "we've been unlucky with this" until you've at least hit the average point. Now, it's true. It'll take, on average, another 3 shots at this to get it right from this point. I assert that that's worth it. Call it roughly the same as three zombie squads (a bit cheaper because for right now, parts are more dear than gold, but about the same). Given the choice between 5 squads with MM1 backing them up and 2 squads with MM2 backing them up, for right now, I'd go for the second. 6 vs 3 isn't even a contest, and my vote has us building that third squad. After all, we care about killing our foes before they flee, and zombies just aren't very good at that. (Also attrition).
Goblin tunnels are a place we've foudn and accessed and sent zombies to hunt in. Grate is guarding against... something. Pretty sure they're different, but if they're not, no big loss.
Right now, zombies are excellent tarpits. They're pretty terrible at actually dealing damage. Piling on more of them gives even more tarpit, but doesn't really solve the damage issue, especially in tight quarters. We need to add *something* to the mix to get some damage dealing in, or all they'll let us do is fight to a standstill. Right now, the best thing we have available is magic missile.
If we could somehow arrange to have skeletons with ranged weapons, it woudl totally be worth putting in a couple squads fo those, but given that it's not, I agree that we should max out our zombies. I just think that we should be researching magic missile at the same time. Battles are resource-gathering activities, and the question is how many resources we can gather before the enemy flees. MM2 pays for itself reasonably quickly that way, even if it does cost an average of three actions. Eventually, we'll get lucky.
It's likely that one of the things we'll be harvesting in the goblin tunnels is goblins. That's what the magic missile is for.
prince84
In central Dogma flirting with Lilith.
- Location
- The Madness Place
Access to better materials, like looting the Supervisors base in other words storyline progress.
Defeating ranged enemies or storyline progress.
All Minion trees have spellcaster units but they are locked depending on your growth/experience as a necromancer and unlocked either by events/quests or storyline progress.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
I'm... I'm honestly curious what a spellcaster zombie looks like now.
Still, I don't think we have what it takes for storyline progress. I don't think we'll have what it takes even with MM2 and a fulls tack of zombies... and some of the other spells look sort of useful, but none of them seems hugely valuable either (Mend Spell is probably worth it at some point, but it's even harder (if cheaper) to raise than magic missile). That means that our real limiting factor is inspiration.
- We can get some inspiration by wandering the markets with money in our pockets and getting lucky. That's going to be more difficult now that we've pissed people off with zombies. We should *probably* let the heat die down before we try this. It might also offer some direct power boosts that don't require research, depending on how lucky we get.
- We can probably get something decent out of the goblin tunnels/behind the grate. Wandering around topside by ourselves might also net us some other useful areas to hit.
- I'm guessing that advancements to research are tied to upgraded facilities, which means that we won't be getting them until we can crack the Supervisor's base. If we think we'll need them for that, we might as well start working on them now.
Still, I don't think we have what it takes for storyline progress. I don't think we'll have what it takes even with MM2 and a fulls tack of zombies... and some of the other spells look sort of useful, but none of them seems hugely valuable either (Mend Spell is probably worth it at some point, but it's even harder (if cheaper) to raise than magic missile). That means that our real limiting factor is inspiration.
- We can get some inspiration by wandering the markets with money in our pockets and getting lucky. That's going to be more difficult now that we've pissed people off with zombies. We should *probably* let the heat die down before we try this. It might also offer some direct power boosts that don't require research, depending on how lucky we get.
- We can probably get something decent out of the goblin tunnels/behind the grate. Wandering around topside by ourselves might also net us some other useful areas to hit.
- I'm guessing that advancements to research are tied to upgraded facilities, which means that we won't be getting them until we can crack the Supervisor's base. If we think we'll need them for that, we might as well start working on them now.
Noitaerc
(Nexus Force) (Assembly) (Verified Minifig)
- Location
- Currently stranded on Mata Nui island
The presence of single group of Skeletons gives a bonus of 5 in attack. If Lesley researches the Skeletal Arms, the weapon should be a crude spear, so the Skeletons can stay behind the meat shields (Zombies) while still able to attack. In tunnels or tight quarters, this would allow a Zombie or a few more to block the passage while the Skeletons use their spear to pierce whatever is in front of the Zombies. Kinda like a shield wall with spears. Can we get bonus for tactics? Can we program our minions with tactics, or do we need a greater undead to direct them into formation?
Cost is also to consider: our Necromancer can currently rise at most thirty Zombies (+15 to defence rolls) or ten Zombies and ten Skeletons (+5 to defence rolls and + 5 to attack rolls). But we cannot go with numbers/defence bonus all the time, since while it is good to be able to take damage... we need to be able to deal it too. In the second round of battle against the R.O.A.S., our Zombies failed to do a single kill, Lesley did all the work! And now she may not be able to just spam the magic missile until the battle is over.
Also, if the current city was partly built over the previous one, is it possible to find corpses and maybe even one or more forgotten graveyard? Lots of parts without a single problem.
Additional thought: since Lesley is the last necromancer... does that mean that the forces of Light cannot afford to kill her without loosing an important amount of their numbers tied to her opposite? What is necromancy's opposite anyway? Healing? If that is the case she got them by the balls... unless the Light is much worse than Lesley knows (mind control or something like that on her to prevent losses on their side). So if Lesley gets surrounded: put a knife to her own throat. "Don't move, I've got an hostage! If you stop me, I cut her throat!" I think there was a video somewhere with something similar, but really silly. I only saw it because it was shown in the Silencio (a Worm fic) omake "A hostage situation" by Ritdom on spacebattles.
Cost is also to consider: our Necromancer can currently rise at most thirty Zombies (+15 to defence rolls) or ten Zombies and ten Skeletons (+5 to defence rolls and + 5 to attack rolls). But we cannot go with numbers/defence bonus all the time, since while it is good to be able to take damage... we need to be able to deal it too. In the second round of battle against the R.O.A.S., our Zombies failed to do a single kill, Lesley did all the work! And now she may not be able to just spam the magic missile until the battle is over.
Also, if the current city was partly built over the previous one, is it possible to find corpses and maybe even one or more forgotten graveyard? Lots of parts without a single problem.
Additional thought: since Lesley is the last necromancer... does that mean that the forces of Light cannot afford to kill her without loosing an important amount of their numbers tied to her opposite? What is necromancy's opposite anyway? Healing? If that is the case she got them by the balls... unless the Light is much worse than Lesley knows (mind control or something like that on her to prevent losses on their side). So if Lesley gets surrounded: put a knife to her own throat. "Don't move, I've got an hostage! If you stop me, I cut her throat!" I think there was a video somewhere with something similar, but really silly. I only saw it because it was shown in the Silencio (a Worm fic) omake "A hostage situation" by Ritdom on spacebattles.
FullNothingness
Mostly DHMO.
The thing is that while we could mix up zombies and skeletons the idea of combat seems to be that the enemy can target those skeletons if they are in melee. To stop that the zombies would need to be doing their distract action rather than fighting. That means you would be trading 2 rolls with +15 in exchange for 1 roll with +20... Not a great trade in almost any situation. Add in that the skeletons and their upgrade are not cheap and IMO it just isn't worth it.
Assuming we are the last necromancer is an IC assumption... We never found a body. OOC it would have been immensely stupid for the Light guys to kill our master. If they had any sense at all they stashed him somewhere else for the sake of having a offsite backup.
Also, as you point they are the guys with the healers... They don't necessarily want us happy, just 'alive'. They could load us down with loads of healing magic and then bury us alive in concrete so we could be 'alive' for centuries...
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Deeply offending a competent mage and then trying to "stash him somewhere else" is the sort of thing that can earn you an entry on your world's version of the Evil Overlord List.
...of course, so does *deliberately* killing a young, talented practitioner's beloved mentor just as he comes into his power, while leaving the kid alone, so it's entirely possible that they did something like that anyway.
FullNothingness
Mostly DHMO.
Look, assuming we were the last two necromancers then both of us living in one house means the Light was one accident away from losing a whole lot of their people. Leaving us together would have been very stupid. Yeah, grabbing the guy might lead to some issues but those are manageable to them I expect.
- Location
- Denmark
Hello I'm new to this quest, and I've not looked through all the discussion, only reading the story posts and a few posts before and after each, so I'm sorry if I say something "we've" already gone over, but I want to join the fun, cast my vote and add my thoughts.
Now, we know that the populous is kind of angry, and the guard patrols have been murdering our minions, but what exactly did we do that was illegal?
We left our deathtrap (the home where our much greater mentor was forcibly taken from), yes. And did not notify the authorities, which of course pisses them off, but why is the other "dark" creatures in our ghetto angry at us?
The harvest option is as far as I can tell our minions picking up garbage and things others have thrown away so we can pick it through for nifty or valuable stuff. That is scavenging, generally considered sad, gross and/or pathetic, but legal. Is that illegal under The Light?
Did our minions do property damage or actually steal things during the "Harvest"? Because if so, we should try to avoid harvesting from places where people live. Keep it to the sewers and the goblin tunnels, at least until they are picked clean. We should however not need to stop harvesting, not gathering loot in a quest is silly.
Edit: After a short while thinking, of course the mindless zombies have no way to determine what is random garbage and what is peoples things, and have most likely broken and stolen most of the stuff they fetched... so people are of course going to be angry. my bad.
Now that aside, we are a necromancer. Resultantly I am of the opinion that the proper amount of minions to have is the maximum number of minions we can control, or at least close to it. Is there a malus or debuff connected to having our maximum minions under control for an extended period? If so, we should stop at 50, if not we get 60, and use them to get more stuff done.
I also think we should start hunting R.O.U.S. in the sewers if possible, getting more tails for animation or vermin tide spells can only be useful in the long run.
[x] Plan a lot of things.
-[X] Watch Over The Lair: Even if they are doing nothing else you can still have your forces watch over your lair.
--[X] 10 zombies
-[X] Harvest: You set your minions to harvest a set area and they will bring you back everything they could carry from that area.
--[x] Sewers
-[X] Raise the undead:
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
Now, we know that the populous is kind of angry, and the guard patrols have been murdering our minions, but what exactly did we do that was illegal?
We left our deathtrap (the home where our much greater mentor was forcibly taken from), yes. And did not notify the authorities, which of course pisses them off, but why is the other "dark" creatures in our ghetto angry at us?
The harvest option is as far as I can tell our minions picking up garbage and things others have thrown away so we can pick it through for nifty or valuable stuff. That is scavenging, generally considered sad, gross and/or pathetic, but legal. Is that illegal under The Light?
Did our minions do property damage or actually steal things during the "Harvest"? Because if so, we should try to avoid harvesting from places where people live. Keep it to the sewers and the goblin tunnels, at least until they are picked clean. We should however not need to stop harvesting, not gathering loot in a quest is silly.
Edit: After a short while thinking, of course the mindless zombies have no way to determine what is random garbage and what is peoples things, and have most likely broken and stolen most of the stuff they fetched... so people are of course going to be angry. my bad.
Now that aside, we are a necromancer. Resultantly I am of the opinion that the proper amount of minions to have is the maximum number of minions we can control, or at least close to it. Is there a malus or debuff connected to having our maximum minions under control for an extended period? If so, we should stop at 50, if not we get 60, and use them to get more stuff done.
I also think we should start hunting R.O.U.S. in the sewers if possible, getting more tails for animation or vermin tide spells can only be useful in the long run.
[x] Plan a lot of things.
-[X] Watch Over The Lair: Even if they are doing nothing else you can still have your forces watch over your lair.
--[X] 10 zombies
-[X] Harvest: You set your minions to harvest a set area and they will bring you back everything they could carry from that area.
--[x] Sewers
-[X] Raise the undead:
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
--[X] Zombie: Slow moving meat shields zombies are best used to soak enemy attacks as they are both cheap and easy to make.
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Kolar
Is Not A Robot
You guys were sending unsupervised zombies out with orders to find and bring back things of value. You have been blindly looting the ghetto for weeks. Zombies were making off with anything not nailed down.
- Location
- Denmark
Yep, i realized that about 5 minutes after i wrote my message, and edited it to address that. Thank you for pointing it out though.
prince84
In central Dogma flirting with Lilith.
- Location
- The Madness Place
There is no malus to having the maximum number of minions. In fact there is no malus to having more than the maximum , it is just you can only control(use for actions) that many at a time the rest you just stick in storage.
- Location
- Denmark
Absolutely lovely! Then we should try to maintain a steady supply of 60 minions until we can increase our limit. Having 10 or so in storage incase other group gets murdered would be nice, of course, but having "man power" we can't utilize would be a waste of parts...
Also, (Looks at current parts and prices of minions.) we're going to need more dead people... So we use this turn to make 2 sets of zombies and next turn we use word of mouth again hoping for the best? Is there, if we're super lucky, an abandoned graveyard in somewhere in the paved over area of the old city?
Also, can we search the old city more directly than random chance though the sewers, and what would the "area" penalty for that be if possible?
prince84
In central Dogma flirting with Lilith.
- Location
- The Madness Place
The more directed option is the personal option though it does focus more on parts.
Edit: As for areas you currently only have access to Shadow Sanctuary as an area.