Consumption

Kai Merah said:

@Alivaril : Quick check, how long do you plan to leave the vote open? Just so I know how long I have before I switch my vote, if I want to switch.

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Alivaril said:

I'll be leaving it open for over 24 hours (about 1:00 PM EST) after the unlock point, so you won't need to worry about tactical voting until the deadline approaches.

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veekie said:

Just to check, this is a permanent until undone sterilization right? No other side effects?
And apparently a difficult technique, so does that mean to get it undone we more or less have to come back here?

Not important to the quest(since we aren't going there), but probably something worth verifying IC.

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Time-saver: The sterilization is arguably a side-effect from Melia's POV, but basically "yes" to all of the above.

Alivaril said:

"Shapeshifting wretches unhealthily obsessed with clueless innocence, magical potential, and unsupervised individuals possessing both. Their activities would actually be pretty funny if the consequences weren't permanent."

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Alivaril said:

"You're lucky you know how babies are made. You're just their type otherwise. Still, be wary of white-haired gentlemen in undeveloped areas, would you?"

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Well, that's not creepy or disturbing at all.

Alivaril said:

Time-saver: The sterilization is arguably a side-effect from Melia's POV, but basically "yes" to all of the above.

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Probably going to want to learn to fix it ourself at some point, but hardly urgent

[X] Stealth vs. Magic
[X] Sonic Amulet

veekie said:

Probably going to want to learn to fix it ourself at some point, but hardly urgent

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Realistically, maybe. Not for eight or ten years, though. Probably longer. And it'll depend heavily on Melia's preferences.

In the context of this quest? If we end up "needing" to "fix" the fact that Melia's on birth control, something has gone horribly wrong and I probably want no part in it.

Vebyast said:

Realistically, maybe. Not for eight or ten years, though. Probably longer. And it'll depend heavily on Melia's preferences.

In the context of this quest? If we end up "needing" to "fix" the fact that Melia's on birth control, something has gone horribly wrong and I probably want no part in it.

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Not even for SCIENCE?

((Note: I completely agree with you on this.))

I'm honestly not too attached to an appearance edit. It has some use, but not that much use. So yeah, consider my mind changed.

[X] Stealth vs. Magic
[X] Sonic Amulet

[X] Sonic Amulet
[X] Poison Immunity

Nixeu said:

...You doubt the ability of someone nearly unnaturally adorable to convince people to let her do things. If that's the case, I guess I know why we evaluate this entirely differently.

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"Learning magic is far too dangerous for such an adorable little girl! We'll protect you, now have some ice cream."

Never underestimate people's ability to deny things to people "for their own good".

pressea said:

Them answering her questions with a smile on their face is definitely an appealing benefit for her

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Assuming they answer them truthfully and don't just make shit up cause they think it's cute and we don't need to know. And don't deny adults do this all the time, I was eight before I could get an explanation for electronic devices that didn't involve tiny people inside them that wasn't from a book.

[X] Stealth vs. Magic.
[X] Magical Failsafes.

I prefer the Magical Failsafes to Sonic Amulet cause with enough experimentation we should be able to make our own, and the species it effects are kind of specific.

Nixeu said:

Why do people keep making this assumption, about local beauty standards? Obvious muscles make it harder to look vulnerable. Knees and elbows may also have some impact on pulling off the look, if pronounced enough. Nothing she suggests seem to be inspired purely by local standards, without a shred of logic behind it.

Honestly, it seems more like something meant to be customized to Melia herself, and not something cookie-cutter, to me. Avoiding that is a major point of pride to Delight.

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You misunderstand. I'm not saying Delight will turn Melia into a cookie-cutter beauty in that there are many like her. But the bare fact that Delight is saying "you'd be objectively prettier if you looked physically weaker" and "you have the gawky knees and elbows of an adolescent" and treating those things the way she is...

It's like, Melia is getting a custom program of cosmetic surgery here, and it's customized skillfully for her, but it's customized according to a specific set of rules idiosyncratic to whatever frame of reference Melia is using. The object of the game is "make Melia the most beautiful woman known to the particular culture that Delight used to learn what 'beauty' is."

The latter works for me. All the better to kick their asses. When it comes to combat/warfare, if you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough.

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Me, I don't want the annoyance of having to constantly fight an uphill battle to be taken seriously.

For interpersonal interaction, a person's appearance is an "always-on" feature of who and what they are. They cannot switch it off without going to absurd lengths. If you enhance and hone their appearance to the point of being weaponized, that is a weapon which is always switched on.

Melia is already attractive enough, and has enough of a 'cute kid' factor, that she pretty clearly gains some significant advantages from it. At the moment, the effect isn't an overpowering "always-on" weapon... but frankly, that's the way I like it. Because when you have a weapon turned on at all times, you're blasting your surroundings with it whether you want to or not, you don't necessarily have control of the effects, and you may not even be able to assess the full effects. You won't even know when someone is too busy doubting your competence to trust you with important information or tasks, because you look like a cutesy child.

If I'm going to obtain a permanent passive effect from some change I can't turn off, I want it to be unambiguously positive, with effects that I will literally always want. Innate resistance to dangerous magic would be clearly positive. Disease resistance is an unambiguous positive. There are no situations where being more vulnerable to disease or getting blown up by magical energies are good things. The law of unintended consequences can only bite us so hard with a wish like that.

By contrast, there are situations where not being super-conspicuously 'cute' is a good thing, or where super-conspicuous, borderline superhuman cuteness has nominally 'good' effects (like people willing to go to war to protect us) that can still have severe unintended consequences.

...

See, it's noteworthy that just about no one voted for the "romantic good looks" version of the appearance enhancement. I mean, it's not like sheer, stunning, heartstopping beauty of the "Helen of Troy" kind isn't an asset too. Melia could make a lot of use of it.

Why does 'Beauty' have few or zero votes after something like thirty people have voted, if not more? Because as a whole, we don't want to deal with the long-term consequences of permanently looking like the wet dream of everyone we meet that's into females. It's a power that will act constantly in Melia's life, all the time, always on, with no way to conveniently deactivate it should it become inconvenient.

[Please note this is not me advocating the 'Beauty' choice, this is me making a point about the reasoning that leads us to reject it]

I feel that 'Cute' has some of the same issues. Sure, it doesn't seem like a big problem right now, when Melia is still an innocent weakling for practical purposes, and is still a child dependent on the mercies of adults. But it could become a much bigger problem a few years from now, with a more powerful Melia trying to engage with the world around her as an adult and authority in her own right.

Nixeu said:

Honestly? I suspect Delight is babbling, a little, while she works. It might be a habit, a sales pitch she's had to make multiple times, and thus goes through while on auto-pilot, and in a similar situation. I've had a doctor do that, only to have to ocassionally correct his spiel for me not having quite the same issues as his other patients. It's not hard to end up with a habitual patter, if you deal with enough people asking for similar things.

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Okay, but the babbling still tells us a lot about Delight's attitudes and what kind of changes she's likely to make, especially since we're not in a good position to customize which of her options she goes for. We get to vote for 'Cute,' 'Beautiful,' or 'Neither,' not 'Okay, stop the runny nose and round off her elbows a bit but don't change her muscle mass.' So we can't just discount what she says; her over-generalizations could cause us harm or at least unintended consequences. Like everyone, she's a product of a distinct culture that will lead her to do specific things that may not be exactly as we expect or desire.

veekie said:

Just to check, this is a permanent until undone sterilization right? No other side effects?
And apparently a difficult technique, so does that mean to get it undone we more or less have to come back here?

Not important to the quest(since we aren't going there), but probably something worth verifying IC.

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Yeah. I'd be kind of unhappy if it turns out we've agreed to give Melia the vaguely-reversible magical equivalent of a hysterectomy, to the point where only another highly skilled biomancer like Delight could realistically reverse the effects. Even if in-quest there's no mechanical downside to having a character who's been altered that radically, I'd be unhappy. Especially if there are other side effects.

Nixeu said:

Eh. The Sonic Amulet is a bit meh. I'm not sure if it would, for example, majorly harm a mutated organism from our original home. It's probably rated for normal, non-magically durable organisms.

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It may be possible to upgrade or augment the thing in future.

I've heard public speakers/debaters slip phrases they've used often in other such events seemlessly into their speech. I would guess it's a similar, 'if-then' sort of thing, assuming an accurate premise. She's talking while really looking at Melia's body and figuring out what would be best, and ocassionally using habitual filler while she tackles the problem.

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See, I get that, but the point is, we can't ignore or decline to interpret the words coming out of her mouth at face value, just because she might not 'really mean them.' If she doesn't explicitly say "nope, changed my mind, those muscles look great on you," it's a safe assumption that her cosmetic surgery is predicated on the idea that muscles are ugly, because she just said that.

Simon_Jester said:

See, it's noteworthy that just about no one voted for the "romantic good looks" version of the appearance enhancement. I mean, it's not like sheer, stunning, heartstopping beauty of the "Helen of Troy" kind isn't an asset too. Melia could make a lot of use of it.

Why does 'Beauty' have few or zero votes after something like thirty people have voted, if not more? Because as a whole, we don't want to deal with the long-term consequences of permanently looking like the wet dream of everyone we meet that's into females. It's a power that will act constantly in Melia's life, all the time, always on, with no way to conveniently deactivate it should it become inconvenient.

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I gave my exact reasoning for not voting for either: no Cute because I don't want it; no Beauty because I don't want it right now (and also tactical reasons, which are a concern with this voting method). Given the choice of one, the other, or neither, I'd pick Beauty hands down.

Those same tactical concerns are why I'm switching from Magical Failsafe to Sonic Amulet. All of the boons are useful IMO except for the artificial asexuality one, which is just and I've been in favor of making Delight a traveling partner in part so she can tease Melia about romance and other things. So, to me, it's just a matter of choosing (Beauty over Cute) and then prioritizing the list.

[X] Sonic Amulet.
[X] Stealth vs. Magic.


@Alivaril The way I would've done this vote, Appearance would be a single option with two subvotes, and voters would be encouraged to mark one of them in even if they don't actually want Appearance to be one of the winners. That way, you can get a greater sense of which of the two mutually-exclusive options is more popular and you have an instant runoff already in place. My vote, in that setup, would look like this: (and yes, the tally program can understand it)

[] Appearance
-[K] Beauty
[K] Sonic Amulet.
[K] Stealth vs. Magic.

[X] Magical Failsafes
[X] Stealth vs. Magic

Gotta love how literally nobody is voting for Imagination Reclamation.

Alivaril said:

What about for them to willingly answer your endless questions and enjoy doing it?"

Delight's exasperation is slowly replaced by demonic glee.

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I admit, she knows how to sell her craft.

[x] Appearance Improvements ("Cute").

SwiftRosenthal said:

I gave my exact reasoning for not voting for either: no Cute because I don't want it; no Beauty because I don't want it right now (and also tactical reasons, which are a concern with this voting method). Given the choice of one, the other, or neither, I'd pick Beauty hands down.

Those same tactical concerns are why I'm switching from Magical Failsafe to Sonic Amulet. All of the boons are useful IMO except for the artificial asexuality one, which is just and I've been in favor of making Delight a traveling partner in part so she can tease Melia about romance and other things. So, to me, it's just a matter of choosing (Beauty over Cute) and then prioritizing the list.

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I acknowledge this- but I'd have expected Beauty to pick up at least SOME votes if it were generally accepted that having it is worth the potential costs and drawbacks, which was my original point- many of us seem to think it's not.

Simon_Jester said:

I acknowledge this- but I'd have expected Beauty to pick up at least SOME votes if it were generally accepted that having it is worth the potential costs and drawbacks, which was my original point- many of us seem to think it's not.

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It might be one of those things where if the Cute option was eliminated entirely some people would shuffle over to Beauty. Have to remember no one would pick both as they are literally mutually exclusive. So people who prefer to change appearance may also prefer Cute, no?

Many of us seem to think there are only two things to pick.

It's actually pretty close...

Uh... that would explain why you voted for only one thing, I guess, Nevill?

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:

It might be one of those things where if the Cute option was eliminated entirely some people would shuffle over to Beauty. Have to remember no one would pick both as they are literally mutually exclusive. So people who prefer to change appearance may also prefer Cute, no?

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To be fair, you have a point.

At the same time, though, if what you say is true, people are considering Cute preferable to Beautiful. Why? Probably because they don't consider the 'power' Beauty grants desirable, or want to avoid some of the unwanted kinds of attention it might attract. Which wraps right back to my point: altering your appearance to the point where your attractiveness becomes a supernatural, 'weaponized' kind of good looks causes problems.

Some ways of doing this may cause less problems than others, and I accept that. At the same time, I'm arguing that it really isn't worth it for us to seek out those problems, even the smaller ones.

Changing over because of tactical considerations.

[X] Stealth vs. Magic
[X] Sonic Amulet

Oh, one thing I was going to mention - Delight doesn't seem to believe in asexual but romantic attachments, either, given what she says about the effects of removing sexual attraction. I'm inclined to think she views those things in a cynical way, giving me another reason to want to avoid an appearance change.

Simon_Jester said:

Uh... that would explain why you voted for only one thing, I guess, Nevill?

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Yes. I want 'cute', I don't want 'sound amulet', and there isn't anything that could plausibly beat Stealth vs. Magic.

Simon_Jester said:

At the same time, though, if what you say is true, people are considering Cute preferable to Beautiful. Why? Probably because they don't consider the 'power' Beauty grants desirable, or want to avoid some of the unwanted kinds of attention it might attract.

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There is a logical fallacy in there, since wanting one thing over the other somehow translates into the other thing being 'undesired' or 'problematic'.

If Delight offered us money (directly, not in the way Sponsorship works), right then and there, no one would look at the offer twice. In no way that suggests that people at large would consider money in itself something unwanted.

If Melia were older and if her problems were different, I would consider 'Beauty'. As it is, I (and a big contingent of other voters) believe 'Cute' a good enough fit for our intended goals if Delight is going to deliver on her promises. Which I noticed some people doubt and search for hidden downsides, but a good portion of those would contradict Delight's own words, and if we can't trust her on that, there is little else to talk about.

Aside from everything that was said about the Cute option, I'm highly concerned that it would turn out to be not what Melia wanted.

Nixeu said:

Also, it only means we might need to work to be considered a threat. And, of course, this would not extend to our elementals, who could remain perfectly frightening.

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Should Cute win, someone at some point would try to "rescue" us from our elementals. I'm calling it.

Deathbybunnies said:

Another point I'd like to make in favour of an appearance upgrade is that this is very clearly Delight's area of expertise. Even if you consider the other options to be superior, you should take into account that whilst we can almost certainly get similar (and possibly superior) effects elsewhere, this is as good an appearance upgrade as is likely possible. She clearly takes great pride in her abilities in this area, considering the lesser solutions of others (glamours, etc.) as downright insulting in comparison.

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I don't think we need an appearance upgrade at all. Delight herself noted that Melia is already cute and beautiful enough.

SystemicHatter said:

And a Vasil breaking someone's heart by ditching them? Heh.

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I don't get the reference.

Vebyast said:

In the context of this quest? If we end up "needing" to "fix" the fact that Melia's on birth control, something has gone horribly wrong and I probably want no part in it.

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Playing this quest for 20+ years IC? It may be of the "horribly wrong" variety, but unlikely.

What A Day said:

Gotta love how literally nobody is voting for Imagination Reclamation.

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Despite being a decent option, it gives no immediate benefit. Oh the other hand, if it was free, I would definitely consider it.

[X] Stealth vs. Magic
[X] Sonic Amulet

Still not sold on the amulet personally, but I'd like to have two boons, rather then one and a constant parade of NPC's shouting "I'm taking her home with me!" or "Get in the kitchen, where you'll be safe!"
Besides all that, Melia doesn't appear to enjoy breaking hearts in the first place. She's already done that some as is, either appearance option just ramps that up more.

It's not like we won't be bringing Delight with us anyway, she could always touch up our appearance later if we absolutely need it for some reason
I believe I've made my position clear on the matter of bringing a new passenger along when we go Drifting >_>

Time for tactical voting, I guess.

[X] Appearance Improvements ("Cute").
[X] Stealth vs. Magic

Also a note about Steath vs. Magic is that it's indiscriminate. What if we wanted to be inspected, like with Morgan? That may become problematic.

I can't find where the sonic amulet is explained (clearly there's something I'm missing since so many people are voting for it) and am considering changing my vote. Can someone help? EDIT: Nevermind, I'd just searched the update for "sonic" and not found it, I see it now.

Anonnermus said:

I believe I've made my position clear on the matter of bringing a new passenger along when we go Drifting >_>

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It's possible that Delight might not want to come along. (What we know of her personality suggests she'd like the idea, but it's less clear that she'd be okay with us being unable to promise we can come back to this world. She might have, you know, stuff here.)