Consumption

[X] Stealth vs. Magic.
[X] Appearance Improvements ("Cute").

Vebyast said:

People remain recognizable when they're down entire limbs. Or when they're wearing high heels or using tongs to extend their reach. In fact, you'll find that the human brain is flexible enough moment to moment to incorporate tools like those claw grabber things into your body image so you can use them better. Badly applied makeup is one of the easiest ways to screw up your body image.

It's also worth mentioning that she specifically intends - and prides herself on her ability to! - maintain Melia's body image and appearance:

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I don't know what you're trying to point out? You keep listing positively mundane things in comparison to the changes she wants to give Melia in order to look like this land's idealized weak female nobles. Are you trying to say Melia is confident in her body but still wants to drastically change that much? Also, I wouldn't recognize Melia if all those changes happened. Maybe she's talking about mental recognition or recognition of self.

If your point is that Melia would be happy with the change, I don't disagree. If the voters and by extension Melia want to completely overhaul herself, then it's what she wants. I don't want the story to happen that way but I can see it.

Brainwasher said:

I don't know what you're trying to point out? You keep listing positively mundane things in comparison to the changes she wants to give Melia in order to look like this land's idealized weak female nobles. Are you trying to say Melia is confident in her body but still wants to drastically change that much? Also, I wouldn't recognize Melia if all those changes happened. Maybe she's talking about mental recognition or recognition of self.

If your point is that Melia would be happy with the change, I don't disagree. If we and by extension Melia want to completely overhaul herself, then it's what she wants. I don't agree with that but I can see it in the story.

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I'm pointing out that real life itself provides examples of humans easily tolerating changes that are more dramatic than what Delight is planning. Go look up before/after examples of bodybuilders cutting. High heels vs hiking boots vs bare feet, sweat pants vs. skinny jeans or skirts, swimsuits and sweaters, haircuts, beards, eyeglasses, makeup, the list goes on. You are massively underestimating the flexibility of human body image and how good we are at recognizing each other. If anything, Delight's changes are the ones that're boringly mundane. I mean, come on, making someone a couple inches shorter, changing their knees a bit? That's practically subliminal!

Brainwasher said:

I don't know what you're trying to point out? You keep listing positively mundane things in comparison to the changes she wants to give Melia in order to look like this land's idealized weak female nobles. Are you trying to say Melia is confident in her body but still wants to drastically change that much? Also, I wouldn't recognize Melia if all those changes happened. Maybe she's talking about mental recognition or recognition of self.

If your point is that Melia would be happy with the change, I don't disagree. If the voters and by extension Melia want to completely overhaul herself, then it's what she wants. I don't want the story to happen that way but I can see it.

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Whilst in terms of what's actually happening makeup is much more mundane than magical transformations, in terms of how much your face actually appears to change for the purposes of self-image, makeup would probably have a greater effect.

Vebyast said:

I'm pointing out that real life itself provides examples of humans easily tolerating changes that are more dramatic than what Delight is planning. Go look up before/after examples of bodybuilders cutting. High heels vs hiking boots vs bare feet, sweat pants vs. skinny jeans or skirts, swimsuits and sweaters, haircuts, beards, eyeglasses, makeup, the list goes on. You are massively underestimating the flexibility of human body image and how good we are at recognizing each other. If anything, Delight's changes are the ones that're boringly mundane. I mean, come on, making someone a couple inches shorter, changing their knees a bit? That's practically subliminal!

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Deathbybunnies said:

Whilst in terms of what's actually happening makeup is much more mundane than magical transformations, in terms of how much your face actually appears to change for the purposes of self-image, makeup would probably have a greater effect.

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If that part I bolded is all you think Delight is planning to change in Melia, I urge you to reread her paragraphs describing what she plans on changing and maybe some of my earlier posts going on about specifics that bothered me.

Accessories, clothing, haircuts, makeup, etc... just aren't that intrinsic to a person. It's very different to be unhappy with such things compared to being unhappy with your body itself.

Dude, I can lose half my body weight without messing with my self-image. You aren't going to convince me that Delight is planning something more extreme than that. She specifically prides herself on not fucking up people's self-images or their ability to be recognized. You're reaching really, really hard.

[X] Appearance Improvements ("Cute").

[X] Magical Failsafes
[X] Sonic Amulet.

Was convinced for the Sonic Amulet. Cute and Amulet cover our bases pretty (dealing with people + dealing with everything else) well while the Stealth option would be nice, it would be rather limited in a nature area. Cute because why not, though I wouldn't be averse to switching it out.

Plus anything we don't get can still be negotiated for if/when Delight wants to hitch a ride in our head.

Honestly forgot about the magical failsafes, thats a good idea to get.

Vebyast said:

Dude, I can lose half my body weight without messing with my self-image. You aren't going to convince me that Delight is planning something more extreme than that.

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I'm assuming by how quickly you responded though that you didn't actually go over what she was planning or what I've said about it? I consider the changes enough that she'd be more recognizable going from obese to starving than she would after the changes Delight has planned for her.

Brainwasher said:

I'm assuming by how quickly you responded though that you didn't actually go over what she was planning or what I've said about it? I consider the changes enough that she'd be more recognizable going from obese to starving than she would after the changes Delight has planned for her.

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Alivaril said:

"Again, some of those girls look like they're in danger of imminent collapse. We'll go with a healthy amount instead of the famine-victim impressions. Still well within the range, just not the unfortunate end. Blushing would almost certainly need its own changes. Confining it to the cheeks in times of minor or moderate embarrassment is a must. We want you to look good, not as though you have a fever.

"Your skin color gets significantly paler underneath your clothing, marked by lines on your upper arms and around your ankles. Personally, I think you'd look a little too much like a ghost if your entire body was your original skin color—honestly, did you come from a mountain village or something? Irrelevant, I suppose. Suffice to say I'd change your body's coloration to be more regular. If you have no preference, I'd go with the slightly tanned skin coloration. Your hair wouldn't fit with the porcelain look, among other problems.

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Alivaril said:

"Good. Now, I'd need to take a look at how you'd cry. Looking terrible can still evoke sympathy, pity, or guilt, so I'd leave most of that. However, an overly runny nose? Disgust isn't useful. If you went for normal beauty, I'd adjust your spine and muscles so as to make standing up straight significantly easier. For the cute route, I'd instead ensure hunching won't damage your neck, back, and spine. Hanging or ducking your head counts. Obesity hasn't been considered attractive for centuries. Needing to watch your diet always struck me as rather unfortunate; I can let you eat practically whatever you want and still remain within the current standard of beauty."

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Alivaril said:

"There are some things which work on just about everyone. Scars, for one thing. Few people think those look good on a girl. I'd get rid of any current ones and make sure your body knows how to properly heal future would-be scars. Your hands look fine from a distance, but don't quite pass close inspection. Their minor calluses and deformities need to go. Your elbows and knees are so very much worse; the bone blatantly sticks out and just doesn't suit you. A little is fine and even normal, but you're downright pointy."

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Alivaril said:

"While we're on the subject of your arms, they're too big. Large muscles may have served you well in your life thus far, but unfortunately, they don't really look right on an Arcane. I can shrink them down to something closer to what a well-raised noble would possess while keeping their functionality. Well, perhaps a bit larger. Some of those poor girls look like a particularly fierce wind would defeat them. Some find that attractive, others don't, and keeping your muscles while going so far would be really quite difficult. We might as well go with what won't sacrifice your strength. Arcanes are weak enough as it is."

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It's fucking makeup, a diet, and posture practice. I could do these things in real life.

[X] Appearance Improvements ("Cute").
[X] Sonic Amulet.

Since people don't want to do safe magical experimentation, changing to the Sonic Amulet so that we have a way of dealing with hostile non-human enemies (since humans are covered by being cute)

[X] Appearance Improvements ("Cute").
[X] Sponsorship.

Brainwasher said:

I'm assuming by how quickly you responded though that you didn't actually go over what she was planning or what I've said about it? I consider the changes enough that she'd be more recognizable going from obese to starving than she would after the changes Delight has planned for her.

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Calling someone out with "I assume you didn't actually do X" seldom does anything productive. Please don't.

Vebyast said:

It's fucking makeup, a diet, and posture practice. I could do these things in real life.

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The other changes would be more than one could do without cosmetic surgery IRL, but Melia's character portrait would still fit her. A good number of the changes sound as though they'd be hidden under the types of clothing Melia (currently) believes are appropriate and thus prefers to wear.

Safe magical experimentation sounds like a good way to freak out any and all mages we seek instruction from. Oh, it's okay for me to fuck up, really, I'm being reckless because an extremely old being protected me against miscasts.

It also sounds like our home country's academy and the role system they have was better quality than the rest of the multiverse. They were able to train magicians in groups without blowing up a large number after all.

I will go ahead and point out that the poison immunity ALSO allows for experimentation, albeit of a chemical nature rather than in a magical fashion. Things like nibbling on a piece of strange plant to see what it does suddenly gets MUCH safer and in a pinch it would probably prevent the worst effects of food poisoning- at a cost, sure, but less than normal.

Someone said it would only be helpful if we happened to be poisoned- that's kind of silly when it rather obviously allows MC to use poison herself without worrying too much about incidental contact.

The sonic amulet and poison immunity make for a rather nice 'girl of the wilds' build rather than a 'helpless waif' build- rather than relying on people ignoring our elementals and pretending to be helpless, we can use those strong arms Delight was so critical of to learn how to use a bow. Poisoned arrows are certainly nothing to sneer at in terms of firepower.

On the other hand, if you DO want to play the innocent waif, carrying around a bit of poisonous 'cooking spices' in case someone decides you'd make a nice trophy or otherwise acts completely unreasonable couldn't hurt.

It's not exactly the kind of poison immunity where we can stride through clouds of poison or accidentally mishandle certaindeathpoison in the middle of a fight. Rather, its just that we survive rather than die.

Vebyast said:

It's fucking makeup, a diet, and posture practice. I could do these things in real life.

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I don't think you're really getting what's bothering me about these issues, so I'll try to explain.

Let's take it point by point:
Makeup - This is a temporary item, whilst controlling blushing in public is cool not being able to freely do so in private adds a certain inhuman disconnect. Same issue with controlling crying, although this doesn't fit in make-up or the other two categories you mentioned. Also, turning your skin into a completely different color with make-up has many of its own troubles and is only temporary. I also don't like changing skin tones to something "better", at least Jade's change was clearly unnatural becoming extremely light without paleness.

Diet - Being able to freely eat however much without consequences isn't something you can do with diet. Adds a bit more inhumanity, not much but when combined with the other aspects starts stacking up. Sounds like an objectively great trait mechanically though.

Posture Practice - This is distinctly turning your spine inhuman or reinforcing it magically to allow you to not have to bother with posture practice so we can slouch cutely. Don't see what practicing posture practice has to do with that. Is once again, just a bit unnatural.

Other - There's also the issues of making Melia completely free of blemishes/scars and getting rid of calluses/shrinking muscles whilst maintaining their capability somehow which makes her seem doll-like and more inhuman/uncanny. There's also implications that she'll change a bunch of other little things like when she mentioned her feet that adds even more to this.

Alivaril said:

Calling someone out with "I assume you didn't actually do X" seldom does anything productive. Please don't.

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You're right, that was thoughtless of me. Even if it got him to respond with his thoughts about the changes specifically, it made him upset and less focused on what I'm trying to get across due to my unkind tone. I'll be more careful.

Alivaril said:

The changes would be more than one could do without cosmetic surgery IRL, but Melia's character portrait would still fit her. A good number of the changes sound as though they'd be hidden under the types of clothing Melia believes are appropriate and thus prefers to wear.

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Muscle tone on her arms and calluses on her hands wouldn't be noticeable in the portrait even if they were there since it's not too close and the clothes cover most of her body that potentially changes. Aside from the skin-color change, it's still as fitting as before.

Darn it, I'm disappointed that at this rate, we probably won't get the Sonic Amulet. We're cute/pretty enough; we don't need to waste a boon on it! Still think Stealth vs Magic and Sonic Amulet are the best choice for Melia.

[X] Magical Failsafes
[X] Stealth vs. Magic

I'd prefer Beauty over Cute, but neither one is a priority ATM.

Brainwasher said:

somehow which makes her seem doll-like and more inhuman/uncanny

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I guarantee you that Delight's changes won't have this problem. It's probably safe to assume not just that she's better with makeup than we are but that she's the most skilled sentient on the plane when it comes to appearances. It'd be astounded if she didn't know how to avoid the uncanny valley.

Brainwasher said:

Posture Practice - This is distinctly turning your spine inhuman or reinforcing it magically to allow you to not have to bother with posture practice so we can slouch cutely. Don't see what practicing posture practice has to do with that

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Melia can already slouch cutely. This change only makes it not hurt her back.

Brainwasher said:

Diet - Being able to freely eat however much without consequences isn't something you can do with diet.

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Melia can already go on a diet and exercise to achieve the desired appearance. This is just an easier way to do it.

If your argument is about "staying natural", I'm, uh, not sure how to respond. Should we get rid of all of our clothes? How about giving up on haircuts and brushing our teeth? And it's a good thing that Melia doesn't need glasses or, worse, insulin or a pacemaker. All of those things are pretty massively unnatural. How about makeup? Makeup is probably the least natural thing on the entire list. You can be born with different levels of knobbliness in your joints or a different height or whatever, but no human in the world has truly perfect skin. And don't get me started on supernormal stimuli.

And before you say that "That's different, they're all temporary"... I wear clothes every day. Not quite the same clothes, but close. I brush my hair and my teeth every day. I don't wear glasses, but people that need glasses wear their glasses every day. And you bet that most people that wear makeup wear it every day, often with the same setup! Hell, how about computers? I'm damn sure not the same person offline as I am online.

That said, it sounds like you're... not sure what the word is. Devoutly anti-transhumanist? And it's seated deeply enough that trying to debate this with you would be a waste of time. I certainly doubt that you're going to convince me, especially in the space of a forum thread, to abandon my own beliefs on the topic.

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[X] Magical Failsafes
[X] Stealth vs. Magic

Vebyast said:

I guarantee you that Delight's changes won't have this problem. It's probably safe to assume not just that she's better with makeup than we are but that she's the most skilled sentient on the plane when it comes to appearances. It'd be astounded if she didn't know how to avoid the uncanny valley.

Melia can already slouch cutely. This change only makes it not hurt her back.

Melia can already go on a diet and exercise to achieve the desired appearance. This is just an easier way to do it.

If your argument is about "staying natural", I'm, uh, not sure how to respond. Should we get rid of all of our clothes? How about giving up on haircuts and brushing our teeth? And it's a good thing that Melia doesn't need glasses or, worse, insulin or a pacemaker. All of those things are pretty massively unnatural. How about makeup? Makeup is probably the least natural thing on the entire list. You can be born with different levels of knobbliness in your joints or a different height or whatever, but no human in the world has truly perfect skin. And don't get me started on supernormal stimuli.

And before you say that "That's different, they're all temporary"... I wear clothes every day. Not quite the same clothes, but close. I brush my hair and my teeth every day. I don't wear glasses, but people that need glasses wear their glasses every day. And you bet that most people that wear makeup wear it every day, often with the same setup! Hell, how about computers? I'm damn sure not the same person offline as I am online.

That said, it sounds like you're... not sure what the word is. Devoutly anti-transhumanist? And it's seated deeply enough that trying to debate this with you would be a waste of time. I certainly doubt that you're going to convince me, especially in the space of a forum thread, to abandon my own beliefs on the topic.

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I'm not some devout anti-transhumanist out to attack your personal beliefs. I just wanted you to understand my point of view. I'll try to simplify it for you since the details of my posts seem to be ignored in favor of painting some weird picture of me to attack.
1. I don't like the idea of Melia becoming this society's idealized female noble which is rather doll-like and distinctly different in body to what she currently is. I don't really consider it "better" at all or trans-human, just fixing oneself more to appeal to this culture's ideals for some reason. As for the adorableness aspect, I value Melia being taken seriously + another benefit more than that.
2. In case you want to go off on another tangent about how I'm against all things unnatural, I did mention how I liked Jade? Her transformation is distinctly much more trans-human, just less focused on appealing to others and changing ones appearance as a priority.

Brainwasher said:

2. In case you want to go off on another tangent about how I'm against all things unnatural, I did mention how I liked Jade? Her transformation is distinctly much more trans-human, just less focused on appealing to others and changing ones appearance as a priority.

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Man, the struggle with Jade and her personal self image was so real. Enough that when Agneyastra did adjust it, Jade very quickly did a 180 on the subject. I mean, it was in addition to all the other things, but when you're literally throwing in votes to deliberately prop up her physical self image and prompt Agneyastra to discuss the matter, I don't know how you get that appearance and how she appeared to others wasn't awfully important to the early quest. Several orders of magnitude more than it is here actually.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:

It's not exactly the kind of poison immunity where we can stride through clouds of poison or accidentally mishandle certaindeathpoison in the middle of a fight. Rather, its just that we survive rather than die.

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While I agree that clouds of poison would be a problem, I see no reason that poison which is lethal in small quantities would be hard to shrug off- combat accident or not. The basic mechanic seems to be that rather than circulating, poison is isolated with incredible efficiency and bled out. This means that you'd logically be all but immune to poisons which are extremely lethal in very small quantities like botulin toxin or poison dart frog venom barring a relatively massive injection.

And yeah, Jade's self-image problem was a big plot point. It was a valid and realistic concern, and worth playing through, but I'm just as happy to largely leave that behind with a different character.