[X] Sansa will marry Lord Harrold Arryn and become Lady of the Vale, renewing ties to the North and Riverlands.
[X]Yes
Tying the Starks to the ruling family of the Vale and to the royal family sitting on the Iron Throne is likely to benefit the North greatly in the long-term.
And I'm not interested in achieving MAXIMUM WAIFU, so marrying a beautiful, even if scarred, woman that is the heiress to the throne of the continent seems like a pretty good option. It's a political masterstroke practically handed to us, courtesy of a generously expended god point (thank you @Hopper).
Adhoc vote count started by Dark Abstraction on Jul 23, 2017 at 1:10 AM, finished with 82 posts and 37 votes.
[X] Sansa will marry Lord Harrold Arryn and become Lady of the Vale, renewing ties to the North and Riverlands.
[X] We will support King Stannis. It is after all the right thing to do. We will defer the question of betrothal until after we've sorted out Renly. With the caveat that, should the war go against us, Princess Shireen will be welcome and safe in Winterfell at any point.
[X] Not yes, but not no either. Our beloved sister has been through a lot of bullshit these past few months, and packing her off to the Vale straight away seems... unkind. If Lord Harry (and his puppeteers, but let's not say that in the reply letter) would but give her some time to adjust after leaving the Lannister/Waters court, perhaps a more formal introduction of the two...?
These seem like wafflely middle-ground votes that don't do anything but delay and annoy people who want an answer now. Not six months from now. Especially Stannis.
To everyone writing in here, just one quick thing: remember who we're dealing with here. It's Stannis. The Mannis' virtues are many and varied. One of them is the complete inability to deal with any kind of flowery, equivocating waffley bullshit. So I would really think about a dozen times before trying to serve him up a plate of it.
Why the hell would Stannis be mad at us? We're supporting him without taking the betrothal in return. If we frame it in our usual Stark honor-bound speech, he should be very pleased that we're doing our duty to him without any transaction in the mix. This way, Stannis can be assured that Robb isn't supporting him because he wants his ass next to the throne. I don't see why Stannis would be upset at all. We're not outright denying it either, we're just postponing it until we kick Renly's teeth in.
Not a terrible idea, but if Renly soundly beats the Lannisters and takes King's Landing, he would get a boost in legitimacy and more potential support in the form of the Crownlands. We might end up worse off than if we just took the fight straight to him. I guess the overall battle plan will be up to Stannis though.
Not really. Even if we beat Renly first, we're gonna have to go up against the Lannisters afterwards anyway because Joffrey is not gonna give up s long as he has troops. Better to let them weaken each other rather than fight them ourselves. Also, like I said, Stoney Sept is like a chokepoint for Renly's army. We should just go there and wait for him to attack us.
Not really. Even if we beat Renly first, we're gonna have to go up against the Lannisters afterwards anyway because Joffrey is not gonna give up s long as he has troops. Better to let them weaken each other rather than fight them ourselves. Also, like I said, Stoney Sept is like a chokepoint for Renly's army. We should just go there and wait for him to attack us.
I'd rather face Kevan with hostages and a string of victories on our side. The Lannisters have lost nearly all credibility and Joffrey can yell and scream all he wants, but once all the kingdoms are united against him, it's only a matter of time until King's Landing falls. It's a matter of destroying our foes piecemeal rather than waiting for Renly to consolidate his rule by taking King's Landing. It's up to Stannis in the end and I imagine that it would be anathema to his very essence to allow Renly to take his throne, his birthright, before him. If we're staying IC, holing up in the Riverlands would likely be unacceptable to both Stannis and Robb when they have the numbers to meet Renly in the field on decent footing. I think we'll end up having to agree to disagree on this because, unless we're given agency over the decision, it's out of our hands.
On a bit of a side note, I keep on imagining what the parley between Stannis and Renly would be like. It was one of my favorite scenes in the books, but now that Melisandre isn't there, that excellent quip about smoked ham is out the window... Oh well...
[X] Not yes, but not no either. Our beloved sister has been through a lot of bullshit these past few months, and packing her off to the Vale straight away seems... unkind. If Lord Harry (and his puppeteers, but let's not say that in the reply letter) would but give her some time to adjust after leaving the Lannister/Waters court, perhaps a more formal introduction of the two...?
[X] We will support King Stannis. It is after all the right thing to do. We will defer the question of betrothal until after we've sorted out Renly. With the caveat that, should the war go against us, Princess Shireen will be welcome and safe in Winterfell at any point.
You know Stannis just got himself a huge legitimacy boost from the honorable Ned Stark proclaiming him the rightful king + Ned winning the trial by combat, proving his innocence of treason, and now he has just inherited Robert's winning Stark-Tully-Arryn alliance. He's also using the standard Baratheon banner whereas Renly is using the Tyrellized version of the Baratheon standard.
[X] We will support King Stannis. It is after all the right thing to do. We will defer the question of betrothal until after we've sorted out Renly. With the caveat that, should the war go against us, Princess Shireen will be welcome and safe in Winterfell at any point.
[X] Not yes, but not no either. Our beloved sister has been through a lot of bullshit these past few months, and packing her off to the Vale straight away seems... unkind. If Lord Harry (and his puppeteers, but let's not say that in the reply letter) would but give her some time to adjust after leaving the Lannister/Waters court, perhaps a more formal introduction of the two...?
[X] Not yes, but not no either. Our beloved sister has been through a lot of bullshit these past few months, and packing her off to the Vale straight away seems... unkind. If Lord Harry (and his puppeteers, but let's not say that in the reply letter) would but give her some time to adjust after leaving the Lannister/Waters court, perhaps a more formal introduction of the two...?
[X] We will support King Stannis. It is after all the right thing to do. We will defer the question of betrothal until after we've sorted out Renly. With the caveat that, should the war go against us, Princess Shireen will be welcome and safe in Winterfell at any point.
As for the odds, maybe we can improve them further by working out a deal with the Lannisters. The throne is a lost cause for them, but if we help make sure they don't lose everything...
I'd rather face Kevan with hostages and a string of victories on our side. The Lannisters have lost nearly all credibility and Joffrey can yell and scream all he wants, but once all the kingdoms are united against him, it's only a matter of time until King's Landing falls. It's a matter of destroying our foes piecemeal rather than waiting for Renly to consolidate his rule by taking King's Landing. It's up to Stannis in the end and I imagine that it would be anathema to his very essence to allow Renly to take his throne, his birthright, before him. If we're staying IC, holing up in the Riverlands would likely be unacceptable to both Stannis and Robb when they have the numbers to meet Renly in the field on decent footing. I think we'll end up having to agree to disagree on this because, unless we're given agency over the decision, it's out of our hands.
I think you're overestimating how reasonable Cersei and Joffrey can be. If we can get Tyrion and/or Kevan to agree on removing them from power, acknowledging Stannis as ruler and consolidating their armies to ours, then great. But I don't think that likely to happen and in that case, turtling really is the best option.
These seem like wafflely middle-ground votes that don't do anything but delay and annoy people who want an answer now. Not six months from now. Especially Stannis.
To everyone writing in here, just one quick thing: remember who we're dealing with here. It's Stannis. The Mannis' virtues are many and varied. One of them is the complete inability to deal with any kind of flowery, equivocating waffley bullshit. So I would really think about a dozen times before trying to serve him up a plate of it.
But we are supporting Stannis, without any waffling. Just without the caveat of Robb marrying Shireen. And the Vale is backing us anyway, it's just a choice of how strong our Alliance would be.
I think you're overestimating how reasonable Cersei and Joffrey can be. If we can get Tyrion and/or Kevan to agree on removing them from power, acknowledging Stannis as ruler and consolidating their armies to ours, then great. But I don't think that likely to happen and in that case, turtling really is the best option.
Cersei and Joffrey? Reasonable? Hah! I'm assuming Kevan can keep them in line but if he can't they'll likely be issuing nonsensical orders left and right with little grasp on the situation. The remnants of the Lannister army will likely answer directly to Kevan anyway and the Crowlanders will be jumping ship to either Renly or Stannis as soon as the opportunity presents itself. They possess little tangible power.
You assume that Renly will accommodate us and attack at Stony Sept once he takes King's Landing. He has little incentive to do so and will probably like the idea of Stannis coming to him. King's Landing is, in his opinion, the 'real prize' after all. If things go his way, he's likely to attract the might of the Crownlands either negating his losses or further swelling his numbers advantage against us.
Turtling might be the 'safest' option but it's certainly not foolproof and I doubt Stannis would approve.
[X] Sansa will marry Lord Harrold Arryn and become Lady of the Vale, renewing ties to the North and Riverlands.
[X] No, let the southerners fight each other and save northern lives.
[X] Sansa will marry Lord Harrold Arryn and become Lady of the Vale, renewing ties to the North and Riverlands.
[X] No
I don't think it's a great idea to put off that marriage alliance to the Vale. We really need it locked in as soon as possible if we're going to war with Renly. Plus, putting it off leaves the very real risk of Harry just marrying someone else, and we're never going to get a more advantageous match. Also, for those hoping for Willas Tyrell, remember that if we beat Renly, it's very likely that Stannis will replace the Tyrells with the Florents. A Tyrell alliance does us no good then.
As for Robb marrying Shireen, I personally don't like the idea, but I'm willing to go along with putting the decision off until after the war concludes, when we have a clearer picture of the long term situation. The reason that I'm leaning towards saying no though, is that it would mean Robb giving up his birthright of Winterfell for a position that IC I doubt he even wants. It's also debatable just how much power he'd really have. Sure, he'd have influence over Shireen, but the same could probably be said for any number of her future advisers, and, ultimately, all the real power would be hers. I'd take being a Lord Paramount over that.
I think you're overestimating how reasonable Cersei and Joffrey can be. If we can get Tyrion and/or Kevan to agree on removing them from power, acknowledging Stannis as ruler and consolidating their armies to ours, then great. But I don't think that likely to happen and in that case, turtling really is the best option.
Cersei and Joffrey have no direct influence in the Westerlands or on their forces right now. Stafford is in the one who is actually there getting their new host going.
If he's going to listen to instructions from any of the Lannisters in King's Landing, it would be Kevan. Since the incest is basically confirmed at this point Cersei's name is probably mud with her family.
You said it yourself, the write-in doesn't have us waffling about backing Stannis, at least that's what you intend it to mean.
So if we're not waffling on backing Stannis...we're opposing Renly. There's no getting around that. That means his 100,000 will be gunning for us. Going on the defensive is fine if it works, but we should be proactive about getting any advantage we can. That includes potentially offering the Lannisters a way out and to hang on to the Westerlands if it means a chance at gaining their troops.
But we are supporting Stannis, without any waffling. Just without the caveat of Robb marrying Shireen. And the Vale is backing us anyway, it's just a choice of how strong our Alliance would be.
It could be seen as wanting to not tie ourselves too closely to Stannis, to give us a potential way to back out. That may not be true, but it's how it could seem.
As an aside...the update mentioned Lord Manderly seeking a match between Robb and one of his daughters. If Robb picks Shireen he'll be disappointed but not overly so. A Princess and future Queen is a better offer. However...Robb being King-Consort makes Bran the heir to Winterfell, which improves the betrothal and port deal in Plan Turtle for Manderly.
[X] We will support King Stannis. It is after all the right thing to do. We will defer the question of betrothal until after we've sorted out Renly. With the caveat that, should the war go against us, Princess Shireen will be welcome and safe in Winterfell at any point
[X] Sansa will marry Lord Harrold Arryn and become Lady of the Vale, renewing ties to the North and Riverlands.
[X] No.
Think about the North, guys. With Robb married to Shireen, who will rule the North after Ned's death? Bran? As a cripple that will be a bit difficult. With Rickon in the Riverlands, Sansa in the Vale and Arya who knows where...that makes the Starks' position in the North not a good one. Robb has never cared about the Iron Throne and as a consort, he'll have to stay in KL most of the time.
That's not worth it, aside from the fact that Stannis' victory is not assured and if we tie ourselves to him in marriage, we'd go down too, if Renly wins. As it is, Robb is already ambivalent towards the whole thing and would rather have them kill each other.
Cersei and Joffrey? Reasonable? Hah! I'm assuming Kevan can keep them in line but if he can't they'll likely be issuing nonsensical orders left and right with little grasp on the situation. The remnants of the Lannister army will likely answer directly to Kevan anyway and the Crowlanders will be jumping ship to either Renly or Stannis as soon as the opportunity presents itself. They possess little tangible power.
You assume that Renly will accommodate us and attack at Stony Sept once he takes King's Landing. He has little incentive to do so and will probably like the idea of Stannis coming to him. King's Landing is, in his opinion, the 'real prize' after all. If things go his way, he's likely to attract the might of the Crownlands either negating his losses or further swelling his numbers advantage against us.
Turtling might be the 'safest' option but it's certainly not foolproof and I doubt Stannis would approve.
If We can bring Lannister and Crownland armies into the fold, then yes, going proactive so the Crownlanders can't join Renly is a good idea. But if we can't and we're gonna have to fight them after defeating Renly, then it is best we stay away and watch them reduce each others numbers, maybe even wipe one of them out.
I'm not assuming anything. I said if Renly attacks us instead of Cersei, it is going to be at Stoney Sept, which is the only point where his lands meet ours, and since it has Westerlands on one side and Crownlands on the other, forming a natural chokepoint, the best strategy is to defend there.
Cersei and Joffrey have no direct influence in the Westerlands or on their forces right now. Stafford is in the one who is actually there getting their new host going.
If he's going to listen to instructions from any of the Lannisters in King's Landing, it would be Kevan. Since the incest is basically confirmed at this point Cersei's name is probably mud with her family.
You said it yourself, the write-in doesn't have us waffling about backing Stannis, at least that's what you intend it to mean.
Yes, again, if we can bring the Lannisters to the fold, great. Means we can fight Renly on equal grounds in terms of troop numbers, and should, so that Renly cannot gain more men or resources from the Crownlands. Turtling is only for if we can't get the Lannisters to betray Cersei and Joffrey, and would have had to fight them after defeating Renly anyway.
So if we're not waffling on backing Stannis...we're opposing Renly. There's no getting around that. That means his 100,000 will be gunning for us. Going on the defensive is fine if it works, but we should be proactive about getting any advantage we can. That includes potentially offering the Lannisters a way out and to hang on to the Westerlands if it means a chance at gaining their troops.
It could be seen as wanting to not tie ourselves too closely to Stannis, to give us a potential way to back out. That may not be true, but it's how it could seem.
Again, the only point that Renly can attack us without taking either the Crownlands or the Westerlands is Stoney Sept, and then he has to deal with Lannisters on both his flanks while attacking us.
And with the way we've phrased it, mixed with the Starks' penchant for honour, it would require a really low roll for Stannis to take it that way. Especially when he knows and respects Ned for his honour, and he just proved by being the only one to declare for him (while nearly getting his head chopped in the process).
Edit: Selyse is a Florent, right? Who wants to check if the Florents want to be the LPs of the Mander by declaring for us instead of Renly? IIRC, there were some in the Stormlands that were pretty ambivalent about Renly too. Maybe now that Stannis has a fighting chance, some would be willing to switch over to us?
Northern Houses tend to stay loyal, and the only two that didn't in the books aren't a concern here.
House Karstark doesn't have a beef with us at all. And Roose Bolton won't rebel for shits and giggles. He rebelled in canon cause Robb was making increasingly bad decisions which were threatening his standing, the North was in a losing position, and he saw a huge opportunity to take control.
But here the North are in an incredibly strong postion, and his status quo will always be maintained. Roose has got no reason to rebel.
Not to mention Ned will still be in the North, and by the time Bran gets around to ruling his heir will definitely be in place. Whether that's his kid, one of Robb's, or maybe another one of Ned's.
Bran will be fine.
Edit: Not to mention Bran will have a fuckoff huge direwolf at his side.
[X] We will support King Stannis. It is after all the right thing to do. We will defer the question of betrothal until after we've sorted out Renly. With the caveat that, should the war go against us, Princess Shireen will be welcome and safe in Winterfell at any point.
[X] Not yes, but not no either. Our beloved sister has been through a lot of bullshit these past few months, and packing her off to the Vale straight away seems... unkind. If Lord Harry (and his puppeteers, but let's not say that in the reply letter) would but give her some time to adjust after leaving the Lannister/Waters court, perhaps a more formal introduction of the two...?
Davos said Stannis would make supporting the North and the Watch a priority. Both are good for their word.
Robb would be king-consort, so while Shireen may hold the reins of power, Robb will have a considerable influence on policy and priorities as her husband.
Yes, I'm well aware that the North's interests would be cared about... this generation. Sure, Stannis, Shireen and Robb will care about the North and Robb's children might care about it but what happens after? The same thing that always happens when someone from the periphery takes power. Power reverts to the center, either through assimilation or conflict.
[X] Not yes, but not no either. Our beloved sister has been through a lot of bullshit these past few months, and packing her off to the Vale straight away seems... unkind. If Lord Harry (and his puppeteers, but let's not say that in the reply letter) would but give her some time to adjust after leaving the Lannister/Waters court, perhaps a more formal introduction of the two...?
[X] No.
