City Building in Middle-Earth

uju32 said:

[...]
Year 3
[X] Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)
[X] Small Stone Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing, +1 Prestige)

Year 4
[X] Logging Camp (-3 Gold, +3 Wood)

Year 5
[X] Pasture (-3 Gold, +2 Food, +1 Income)

RATIONALE
[...]
At this rate, we add +1 Pop at Turn 3, which goes to Fishing, and accelerates our rate of growth so that we should be most of the way to the next population milestone by turn 5. And hopefully have enough wood stocked to build more ships by next turn.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Why then build two production buildings in Year 4 & 5? Even if we grow a second population in Year 5 we would still have one production building remain empty.

While trade agreements last five turns that just means there needs to be a pause at that point to renegotiate. It doesn't mean the turn needs to be five years, just that you need to make clear what you want built and in what order, and time progresses until that is accomplished or an event happens.

ctulhuslp said:

IIRC, Helots were in Messalia, which was separated from Sparta itself by hard to pass mountains. Which kinda supports my point.

I mean, Spartans got beaten by Thebans and didn't even fight Macedonians, IIRC, so I think they are way overhyped.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The helots existed both in the Messalia and Laconia area and... you do realize the Theban victory came after a lot of debilitating wars between Sparta and Athens? Honestly, the Spartans are hyped, but they were very good at what they did, but they lacked depth... look at their ruling system: two kings so that there was always one at home or the fact that the Helots outnumbered the Spartans about 7 to 1 (probably an exaggeration, but it is an unheard number of slaves to freemen in the ancient world) quite frankly their issue was that they couldn't afford losses, or else the Helots would get uppity... again.
Note Thermopylae, they only sent 300, because that was all they could spare.

They might be overhyped, and quite frankly I wouldn't wish the agoge on my enemies, but you are dismissing them terribly, specially about a quote that is mostly right, you make them a grave disservice

uju32 said:

Under advisement from @Admiral Skippy regarding when we expect Stone to be available, I shifted the military buildings to Year 2, leaving only the Taming of the Baranduin in year 1.

PLAN: CHINA MUST GROW LARGER v2
[X] Militia cannot be relied on for everything. (Military Size +1)

DIPLOMACY
[X]Year 1: Bree: Travel by ship upriver, disembark near the Brandywine Bridge, and travel overland.
[X]Year 2: Imladris: Reestablish regular contact with your far kin, possibly with permanent representatives or the possibility of fostering some of your children.
[X]Year 3: Mithlond: Reestablish regular contact.
[X]Year 4: The Lossoth. Send gifts of gratitude for their hospitality, as well as diplomats and trade to explore commercial links.
[X]Year 5: Tharbad: What's a gwan up here.


TRADE
[X] Buy 2 Food (Market Price+1): -6 gold/turn
[X] Sell 1 Wood (Market Price+1): +5 gold/turn
[X] Sell 1 Hardwood (Market Price): +5 gold/turn
[X] Buy 2 Stone (Market Price): -6 gold/turn
[X] Sell 2 Metal (Market Price): +4 gold/turn


BUILD ORDER
Year 1
[X] Tame the Baranduin (-10 Gold, -20 Stone)

Year 2
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Armories (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Training Grounds (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)

Year 3
[X] Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)
[X] Small Stone Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing, +1 Prestige)

Year 4
[X] Logging Camp (-3 Gold, +3 Wood)

Year 5
[X] Pasture (-3 Gold, +2 Food, +1 Income)



RATIONALE
We tame the Baranduin, to prevent spring flooding from wrecking our existing construction, or causing public health disasters.
Military Buildings to improve the quality of our forces. Then more food, then wood.

At this rate, we add +1 Pop at Turn 3, which goes to Fishing, and accelerates our rate of growth so that we should be most of the way to the next population milestone by turn 5. And hopefully have enough wood stocked to build more ships by next turn.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

while your plan does seem like a good basis, we need more ships, specially trade ships before the next renegotiation, think we can do without the sale of wood, maybe transition some of the still wooden districts to stone and use that for a trade ship?
that will let us increase our trade volume a tad...

@uju32, you deserve some replies on the points you've raised, but right now they'll have to wait whilst I post this. Here's my three year plan. There are some quirks to it which I'll quickly explain. The main thrust is trying to expand our fleet ASAP, because I think it may be even more crucial than we already thought. You guys might remember that earlier, I raised the possibility of tearing down wooden districts for more firewood, since we still seemed to have a lot of brown buildings on the map, right? I also raised the possibility of scavenging stone from some of the ruined cities in the region?

Well, I checked both of these things with @Sayle, and it turns out that yes, we do have a lot of wooden districts still, because we stopped rebuilding them in stone about halfway through. And yes, we can scavenge stone from abandoned cities, and the best candidate is Lond Daer (since Fornost is still 500 miles away even if there's a road), but we'll need ships. This seems to strengthen the case for a fleet being crucial to get us access to more stone even further, and it also gives us a potential route to make it quicker.

Hence this plan, which assuming the dice gods are at least ambivalent, should get us a Ciralya built in Year 5.


Three Year Plan: We Need A Bigger Boat Pt. 1

Civic Construction
Year 1
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Training Grounds (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
Year 2
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
Year 3
->[X] Assign New Population (1) to Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)
[X] Small Stone Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing, +1 Prestige)
[X] Tame the Baranduin (-10 Gold, -20 Stone)

Diplomatic and Military
Year 1
[X] Task the Rangers with making safe the main routes connecting Ost Falasuin to Bree and Tharbad. If they request support from the regular military, give it to them.
Year 2
[X] Send an embassy by ship to the Lossoth, thanking them for their hospitality in our time of need and bearing gifts. Also investigate possible future trade. (-1 Gold)
Year 3
[X] Send an embassy and trading mission to Tharbad and Bree, if it is safe to do so.

Trade and Treasury
[X] Import 2 Food (Market Price +1)
[X] Import 2 Stone (Market Price)
[X] Export 2 Metal (Market Price)
[X] Export 1 Hardwood (Market Price)
Net: -3 Gold/Turn


Notes
- Basically the whole objective of this plan is to let us build a trade ship in Year 5. Everything is bent towards it. With the wood we bank by rebuilding districts over these three years, plus rebuilding two more in the next two-year period, we will safely have enough to build a ship. The wood consumption estimates in my projection are based on averaging out a year's possible results; they effectively allow for about one Harsh Winter in five years.
- We're also not exporting wood despite it being at a good price right now, and running a trade deficit- this is the only way to maintain both wood stores, population growth, and have an infrastructure programme which isn't solely composed of rebuilding districts in stone.
- We also get the Baranduin tamed, build a residential district, and should build two specialised military districts over five years. The second one should be in the next five year period. Not to mention all the rebuilding in stone, which is worth doing. In terms of population growth and allocation, we should get another fishing fleet set up and establish another logging camp, pretty standard.
- The reason I'm splitting it into a three-year plan and a two-year plan rather than one five-year plan is to allow for the chance that Bree and/or Tharbad will offer us trading terms, and give us an opportunity to react. They might be willing to buy metal at a premium, for example.
- If we don't do this, by my calculations it will be Year 7 or possibly even Year 8 before we get to build a trade ship. Decide whether you're happy with that. This is the only way to have a ship by Year 5, significant infrastructure development, and population growth that I've been able to find. I've tried running the numbers on basically every other permutation and they don't work.

@Admiral Skippy ,I think your plan makes us too much prestige (which makes us more of a target because ~they are rich enough to build everything from stone~ or something) without enough defensive measures, to be honest. I like building up a lot, but we are being raided by small thingies (yet) almost every other turn, so I'd rather delay rebuilding for either another wall or one(?) more militia-related building somewhere.

Are you sure that stone reclamation doesn't require extra population assigned to the task? If it does, there's little point to building trade vessel asap.

ctulhuslp said:

@Admiral Skippy ,I think your plan makes us too much prestige (which makes us more of a target because ~they are rich enough to build everything from stone~ or something) without enough defensive measures, to be honest. I like building up a lot, but we are being raided by small thingies (yet) almost every other turn, so I'd rather delay rebuilding for either another wall or one(?) more militia-related building somewhere.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I mean, if you want to wait much longer for a trade ship, that's cool. But developing our sealift within the next five years seemed to be something people wanted to do; this is basically the only way to do it. The Prestige concern is probably valid to some extent but I don't think raising it by six should be hugely dangerous. I could happily change Taming the Baranduin to the Second Circuit Wall if people wanted; I got the impression that the general feeling was more towards taming.

A plan where we just build the second circuit walls and some military districts whilst saving money would be basically a doddle to write; it was what I was going to write originally before I started considering the question of whether or not we could get a trade ship by Year 5.

vsh said:

Are you sure that stone reclamation doesn't require extra population assigned to the task? If it does, there's little point to building trade vessel asap.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

There's been no indication that it does; we've never had to assign population for building projects (which is essentially what rebuilding in stone is) before.

@Admiral Skippy an intriguing plan and one I could get behind, but you are sorta forgetting to vote on the what to do with the current military district, and yeah I agree a trade ship by year five, so that it might be ready for the next renegotiation would be ideal, we would also need to see if we can squeeze another more militant ship (perhaps a sailing ship?) sending ships on their own is a bad idea and leaving none at home waters is equally a bad idea...

Chaos Blade said:

@Admiral Skippy an intriguing plan and one I could get behind, but you are sorta forgetting to vote on the what to do with the current military district, and yeah I agree a trade ship by year five, so that it might be ready for the next renegotiation would be ideal, we would also need to see if we can squeeze another more militant ship (perhaps a sailing ship?) sending ships on their own is a bad idea and leaving none at home waters is equally a bad idea...

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We do have the badass Númenórean ship as an escort, remember.

And yeah, I basically forgot to include that. I assumed that people could vote whatever way they wanted on that one; this is more of an infrastructure and resource management plan. But I could edit in my preference, once I work out what that happens to be.

Admiral Skippy said:

We do have the badass Númenórean ship as an escort, remember.

And yeah, I basically forgot to include that. I assumed that people could vote whatever way they wanted on that one; this is more of an infrastructure and resource management plan. But I could edit in my preference, once I work out what that happens to be.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I think you should leave it out of the plan.

[X] Militia cannot be relied on for everything. (Military Size +1)
"Three Year Plan: We Need A Bigger Boat Pt. 1"
Civic Construction
Year 1
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Training Grounds (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
Year 2
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
Year 3
->[X] Assign New Population (1) to Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)
[X] Small Stone Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing, +1 Prestige)
[X] Tame the Baranduin (-10 Gold, -20 Stone)

Diplomatic and Military
Year 1
[X] Task the Rangers with making safe the main routes connecting Ost Falasuin to Bree and Tharbad. If they request support from the regular military, give it to them.
Year 2
[X] Send an embassy by ship to the Lossoth, thanking them for their hospitality in our time of need and bearing gifts. Also investigate possible future trade. (-1 Gold)
Year 3
[X] Send an embassy and trading mission to Tharbad and Bree, if it is safe to do so.

Trade and Treasury
[X] Import 2 Food (Market Price +1)
[X] Import 2 Stone (Market Price)
[X] Export 2 Metal (Market Price)
[X] Export 1 Hardwood (Market Price)

Admiral Skippy said:

We do have the badass Númenórean ship as an escort, remember.

And yeah, I basically forgot to include that. I assumed that people could vote whatever way they wanted on that one; this is more of an infrastructure and resource management plan. But I could edit in my preference, once I work out what that happens to be.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Certainly but note I said that leaving our home waters bare is also a bad idea, and thus my suggestion of building even a less capable ship for patrol and the like, hell we could use it latter as part of an exploration fleet, though given the resource limitation we are facing... speaking of which I am not seeing any expansion of our food or lumber infrastructure, I assume we'll be doing those in year four?

Chaos Blade said:

Certainly but note I said that leaving our home waters bare is also a bad idea, and thus my suggestion of building even a less capable ship for patrol and the like, hell we could use it latter as part of an exploration fleet, though given the resource limitation we are facing... speaking of which I am not seeing any expansion of our food or lumber infrastructure, I assume we'll be doing those in year four?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Fishing boats in Year 3

Chaos Blade said:

while your plan does seem like a good basis, we need more ships, specially trade ships before the next renegotiation, think we can do without the sale of wood, maybe transition some of the still wooden districts to stone and use that for a trade ship?
that will let us increase our trade volume a tad...

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

No spare wood.
And I do not see any wooden districts left in our allotment; last check we'd converted all of them to stone.

Spacegnom said:

Why then build two production buildings in Year 4 & 5? Even if we grow a second population in Year 5 we would still have one production building remain empty.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Optimism, to be entirely honest.

As an alternative for people who really don't like the idea of rushing the ship out:

Five Year Plan: Plan Stay the Course
Civic Construction
Year 1
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Training Grounds (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
[X] Build the Second Circuit Wall (-10 Gold, -16 Stone)
Year 2
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Armories (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
Year 3
->[X] Assign New Population (1) to Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)
[X] Small Stone Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing, +1 Prestige)
Year 4
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
Year 5
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)

Diplomatic and Military
Year 1
[X] Task the Rangers with making safe the main routes connecting Ost Falasuin to Bree and Tharbad. If they request support from the regular military, give it to them.
Year 2
[X] Send an embassy by ship to Mitholond, thank them for their aid against the Witch-King and offer tokens of gratitude. Enquire about future trade.
Year 3
[X] Send an embassy to Imladris, thank them for their aid against the Witch King, and enquire if they have new tidings of the Enemy. Also inquire about trade, and fostering our sons.
Year 4
[X] Send an embassy by ship to the Lossoth, thanking them for their hospitality in our time of need and bearing gifts. Also investigate possible future trade. (-1 Gold)
Year 5
[X] Send an embassy and trading mission to Tharbad and Bree.

Trade and Treasury
[X] Import 2 Food (Market Price +1)
[X] Export 1 Wood (Market Price +1)
[X] Import 2 Stone (Market Price)
[X] Export 2 Metal (Market Price)
[X] Export 1 Hardwood (Market Price)
Net: 2 Gold/Turn


Notes
- This gets us basically does every useful thing we can do, leaving a healthy treasury and decent Stone stockpile, laying the way for Taming the Baraduin soon after.
- The trade ship will probably be in Year 7 under this plan, maybe Year 6 if we get very lucky with winters. I've still incorporated the idea of rebuilding in stone to bump up or wood stocks.
- Hopefully there's now a plan for everyone.

uju32 said:

No spare wood.
And I do not see any wooden districts left in our allotment; last check we'd converted all of them to stone.

Optimism, to be entirely honest.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

No plan that contained conversions won/ever reached that point in the queue. So, we still have three wooden (1x Mercantile/Civic/Residential) districts.

uju32 said:

And I do not see any wooden districts left in our allotment; last check we'd converted all of them to stone.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

If you look at the map of our city, and see all of the districts that are coloured brown rather than grey? Those are the ones that are still wooden.

There was some kind of effort to rebuild them in stone but it stalled pretty early, apparently.

Spacegnom said:

No plan that contained conversions won/ever reached that point in the queue. So, we still have three wooden (1x Mercantile/Civic/Residential) districts.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Really? Ugh.
I'll come back and redo the math a little later today, and free up some wood once I get some free time.

So is there a general feeling that people prefer Plan Stay the Course to Plan We Need a Bigger Boat?

Five Year Plan: Plan Stay the Course
[X] Militia cannot be relied on for everything. (Military Size +1)
Civic Construction
Year 1
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Training Grounds (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
[X] Build the Second Circuit Wall (-10 Gold, -16 Stone)
Year 2
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Armories (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
Year 3
->[X] Assign New Population (1) to Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)
[X] Small Stone Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing, +1 Prestige)
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
Year 4
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Training Grounds (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
Year 5
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Armories (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)

Diplomatic and Military
Year 1
[X] Task the Rangers with making safe the main routes connecting Ost Falasuin to Bree and Tharbad. If they request support from the regular military, give it to them.
Year 2
[X] Send an embassy by ship to Mitholond, thank them for their aid against the Witch-King and offer tokens of gratitude. Enquire about future trade.
Year 3
[X] Send an embassy to Imladris, thank them for their aid against the Witch King, and enquire if they have new tidings of the Enemy. Also inquire about trade, and fostering our sons.
Year 4
[X] Send an embassy by ship to the Lossoth, thanking them for their hospitality in our time of need and bearing gifts. Also investigate possible future trade. (-1 Gold)
Year 5
[X] Send an embassy and trading mission to Tharbad and Bree.

Trade and Treasury
[X] Import 2 Food (Market Price +1)
[X] Export 1 Wood (Market Price +1)
[X] Import 2 Stone (Market Price)
[X] Export 2 Metal (Market Price)
[X] Export 1 Hardwood (Market Price)

Admiral Skippy said:

So is there a general feeling that people prefer Plan Stay the Course to Plan We Need a Bigger Boat?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Much prefer Bigger Boat, more trade is more trade, bigger export/import amounts.
Wonder if we could offer to build merchantmen for our trader friends? in some sort of lease scheme perhaps?

Oddly I now find myself starting to like Plan Stay the Course. It basically gives us a small but capable military where we only had a militia before, and honestly, the trade ship is only vital to get done ASAP if we're absolutely prioritising the speed at which we can increase our Stone imports.

Admiral Skippy said:

Oddly I now find myself starting to like Plan Stay the Course. It basically gives us a capable military where we only had a militia before, and honestly, the trade ship is only vital to get done ASAP if we're absolutely prioritising the speed at which we can increase our Stone imports.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I am not sold on your "Trade ship to collect stone" idea just yet. But, a new trade ship will increase the maximum quantity of all our trade deals. This is what I am primarily after with your plan.

Five Year Plan: Plan Stay the Course

Civic Construction
Year 1
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Training Grounds (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
[X] Build the Second Circuit Wall (-10 Gold, -16 Stone)
Year 2
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Armories (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
Year 3
->[X] Assign New Population (1) to Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)
[X] Small Stone Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing, +1 Prestige)
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
Year 4
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Training Grounds (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)
Year 5
[X] Small Military District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, -2 Metal)
--[X] Armories (-5 Gold, Increase Quality)
[X] Convert District to Stone (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, + Prestige)

Diplomatic and Military
Year 1
[X] Task the Rangers with making safe the main routes connecting Ost Falasuin to Bree and Tharbad. If they request support from the regular military, give it to them.
Year 2
[X] Send an embassy by ship to Mitholond, thank them for their aid against the Witch-King and offer tokens of gratitude. Enquire about future trade.
Year 3
[X] Send an embassy to Imladris, thank them for their aid against the Witch King, and enquire if they have new tidings of the Enemy. Also inquire about trade, and fostering our sons.
Year 4
[X] Send an embassy by ship to the Lossoth, thanking them for their hospitality in our time of need and bearing gifts. Also investigate possible future trade. (-1 Gold)
Year 5
[X] Send an embassy and trading mission to Tharbad and Bree.

Trade and Treasury
[X] Import 2 Food (Market Price +1)
[X] Export 1 Wood (Market Price +1)
[X] Import 2 Stone (Market Price)
[X] Export 2 Metal (Market Price)
[X] Export 1 Hardwood (Market Price)
Net: 2 Gold/Turn

Spacegnom said:

I am not sold on your "Trade ship to collect stone" idea just yet. But, a new trade ship will increase the maximum quantity of all our trade deals. This is what I am primarily after with your plan.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

...It's a weird feeling when you find yourself arguing against your own plan. :lol

Obviously I get where you're coming from. Personally the reasons why I changed my mind were that; Plan Stay the Course leaves us with a much more intact treasury; Plan Stay the Course is much more in line with what I initially had planned for the next five years after Plan Outward Growth; the single-minded dedication to upgrading our military several steps in a single plan may be a better way to approach things than trying to do a little of everything at once. (I'll update it with proper bookkeeping in a moment.) Of course there are valid arguments for rushing the trade ship though. I just made quite a few duct-taped together compromises to get there, in all honesty, and I'm reassessing that.

Ultimately the best thing to do is probably to let people go with whichever they feel appeals to them the most. May the best plan win.

Three Year Plan: We Need a Bigger Boat (Pt. 1)
Votes (2): @Spacegnom, @Chaos Blade,

Five Year Plan: Stay the Course
Votes (3): Me, @Night_stalker, @HanEmpire,