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City Building in Middle-Earth

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[x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
[x] Do not lower taxes.
 
Food? Why the heck would we import food? It's the one thing we can produce on site in abundance without even needing a colony. And our larders are filled right now.

Granted, the price we're being offered is excellent. I'm guessing Gondor must have had a very good harvest recently. So I'm guessing it wouldn't be too wasteful right now.

Stone is expensive, but we need it, and it's difficult to produce natively. A colony near the Blue Mountains might help, but I'm concerned about the need for overland transportation. It's probably cheaper to ship over water all the way from Gondor than it would be to send it by cart over a far smaller distance.

@Sayle
Are there any locations upriver along the Baranduin that would be suitable for a highly productive quarry? "Highly productive" meaning at least 4 stone out of 5.


We definitely want to sell wood. There should be plenty of demand in Gondor, and we have the forests of Eryn Vorn within spitting distance of our city.

I propose that we send an expedition to search for Lebethron sites as soon as feasible. Then put a colony there. It needs a dock, some Housing, and little else. Food can be imported from Ost Falasuin. After having secured a steady supply of Lebethron, we should start thinking about making finished goods out of it instead of merely exporting the timber.

[x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
 
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Driven by Apathy said:
Food? Why the heck would we import food? It's the one thing we can produce on site in abundance without even needing a colony. And our larders are filled right now.

Granted, the price we're being offered is excellent. I'm guessing Gondor must have had a very good harvest recently. So I'm guessing it wouldn't be too wasteful right now.

Stone is expensive, but we need it, and it's difficult to produce natively. A colony near the Blue Mountains might help, but I'm concerned about the need for overland transportation. It's probably cheaper to ship over water all the way from Gondor than it would be to send it by cart over a far smaller distance.

@Sayle
Are there any locations upriver along the Baranduin that would be suitable for a highly productive quarry? "Highly productive" meaning at least 4 stone out of 5.


We definitely want to sell wood. There should be plenty of demand in Gondor, and we have the forests of Eryn Vorn within spitting distance of our city.

I propose that we send an expedition to search for Lebethron sites as soon as feasible. Then put a colony there. It needs a dock, some Housing, and little else. Food can be imported from Ost Falasuin. After having secured a steady supply of Lebethron, we should start thinking about making finished goods out of it instead of merely exporting the timber.

[x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
[x] Do not lower taxes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We need food to grow population to build new production buildings (Farms/quarries/fishing boats/etc.). Currently we are 7 food away from getting a new POP and we only gain 1 food per year. So, if we import 2 food we will have a new POP in just 3 years instead of 7.
 
Ooh, there's been an update while I was away!

I wonder how the negotiations we-

Sayle said:
So it was in the spring of 1981 of the Third Age Arvedui issued forth from Ost Falasuin in great panoply, for even reduced as they were the Dúnedain remained mighty in force of arms. They set camp at the edge of the forested cape of Eryn Vorn, blew their horns in challenge, and the Wildmen were afraid. Three days they waited, and each morn issued again their challenge with the sound of their horns, which was mighty and shook the leaves atop the trees.

At last the chieftain of those forest dwellers came forth to answer this challenge, and Arvedui rode out to meet him. The Chieftain of the Dúnedain was beheld in splendor, for in him was the might of Númenor yet undiminished and the Elendilmir upon his brow shone cold like steel. The halting westron of the Wildmen seemed uncouth to the ears of the Dúnedain, and many grievances were laid before Arvedui on the encroachment of workers and the felling of trees, of the rapacious greed of Númenor which drove the Wildmen from their great forests that no longer stood, and of the settlement of the Baranduin which they considered theirs to the eastern bank.

Then Arvedui grew angry, for it was the blood of his people who had been spilt for these grievances, and just recompense and the surrender of the timber they had felled he judged necessary for any peace. This he demanded and this the Wildmen refused, and so in his wroth Arvedui laid his hands on the chieftain of the Wildmen and slew him.

Thus the Dúnedain entered Eryn Vorn and there the valor of Old Arnor was shown in full, for in the Dúnedain was the might of Númenor. The streams of Eryn Vorn ran red in the slaughter, and the Wildmen were laid low to a man, and their hidden fastness within the forest was overthrown.
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Click to shrink...

 
Driven by Apathy said:
We definitely want to sell wood. There should be plenty of demand in Gondor, and we have the forests of Eryn Vorn within spitting distance of our city.

I propose that we send an expedition to search for Lebethron sites as soon as feasible. Then put a colony there. It needs a dock, some Housing, and little else. Food can be imported from Ost Falasuin. After having secured a steady supply of Lebethron, we should start thinking about making finished goods out of it instead of merely exporting the timber.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This.

Having a few other fortified settlements within a few days reinforcement distance isn't a bad idea. These can be great to focus on bringing in resources, create a bigger population, let you do more cartography, and actually forge a kingdom that's not a mere city state. In the larger safe zones created between these new settlements, the population can do more danger free farming.

Arnor only really fell not long ago. It's within living memory and people are going to want to come to the civilisation. They'll bring tradesmen and the city will be able to export finished goods as well as raw material. With an influx of a refugee population, building the settlements, especially with Elven and Dwarven aid, should be quicker going.

Meta knowledge - having the new kingdom as another balwark against Isengard can't be anything but a good thing.


Settlement idea:

 
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@RichardWhereat How about Lond Daer? It can be resupplied by sea if necessary, is at the mouth of a large river and relatively close to Tharbad, which is still settled.

Isengard may not exist as an independent power in this timeline depending on what happens. We do have the Dunlendings to deal with at some point down the line though.
 
Sayle said:
[ ] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[ ] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[ ] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sayle said:
[ ] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
[ ] Do not lower taxes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Current Treasury: 16 gold
Sell 2 Wood: +6 gold
Buy 2 Food: -2 gold
Buy 2 Stone: -6 gold
Sell 1 Lebethron: +3 gold
Militia: -2 gold
Mercantile District: +2 gold
Population: + 5 gold

NET INCOME: +6 gold

CONCLUSION
Cutting taxes by 50% will only cost us ~2 gold of income.
We can afford to cut our taxes in half for two years.
It will only reduce our income to +4 gold per turn, and if the population grows, our taxes go up anyway.


VOTE
[X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
[X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
 
[X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
[X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
 
[X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
[X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
 
@Sayle Market prices are still the same as last year? Did we finish all three building projects in one year? What is our treasury currently at? How much food and timber did we take from the wildmen?

@uju32 's analysis is correct. Lowering taxes should allow us to grow a new POP in 1-2 years depending on how much food we took from the wildmen.
[X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
[X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
Adhoc vote count started by Spacegnom on Apr 24, 2017 at 4:54 PM, finished with 319 posts and 50 votes.
  • [X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.
    [x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    [x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
    [x] Do not lower taxes.
    [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
    [X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
    [X] Victorious they returned to the city with spoils of food and timber, and the children of the House of Haleth were put to work in the fields for the sins of their fathers.
    [x] One Years Supply.
    [x] Small Civic District (-5 Gold, -2 Wood)
    [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
    [X] Do not lower taxes.
    [X] TA: 1976...The Path Less Hopeful
    [X] Store enough food for a year of no production.
    [X] Build Small Mercantile District [+2 Taxes] (-2 Gold: Demolish Shanties, -5 Gold: Build District, -2 Wood)
    [X] Build a stronger wall as each 'circle' of the settlement is completed, much in the model of Minas Anor.
    [X] Give Eärnur the palantir of Amon Sûl.
    [X] Plant crops and wait until next year.
    --[X] Build Small Residential District (-2 Wood, 2 Housing)
    [X] Establish a militia (-2 Gold per turn).
    [X] Build another logging camp. (-2 Gold, +3 Wood)
    [X] Export 1 Lebethron per year at market value.
    [X] Import 2 Stone per year at market value.
    [X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    [X] Do not lower taxes.
    [X] Store enough food for a year of no production.
    [X] Open a Mine [+2 Metal] (-5 Gold)
    [X] Build a stronger wall as each 'circle' of the settlement is completed, much in the model of Minas Anor.
    [X] Gripped by the horrors that have been inflicted upon their enemy by them, the circle of the king take a vow of pacifism, that their actions will never again sully their spirit
    [X] Small Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Wood, +2 Housing)
    [X] Small Civic District (-5 Gold, -2 Wood)
    [X] Preparing a punitive action would require deferring the construction of a new camp this year, but since most of your workers were survivors of the war with Angmar you should have a qualitative advantage.
    --[X] Show your might and attempt to come to some kind of agreement.
    [X] Small Civic District
    --[X] Establish Courts (-2 Gold, +1 Prosperity, +1 Guardsmen)
    [X] Build Docks (-5 Gold, -4 Stone, Shipbuilding)
    [X] Small Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Wood, +2 Housing)
    [X] Preparing a punitive action would require deferring the construction of a new camp this year, but since most of your workers were survivors of the war with Angmar you should have a qualitative advantage.
    --[X] Find their settlement and expel them from Eryn Vorn by force of arms.
    [X] The felling of trees is at the core of prosperity, in the building of houses and boats. Scarce it may be, but it is needed.
    [X] Ost Falasuin (City of the Shore)
    [X] One Years Supply.
    [X] Small Civic District (-5 Gold, -2 Wood)
    [X] Small Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Wood, +2 Housing)
    [X] Build Docks (-5 Gold, -4 Stone)
    [X] One years supply
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Spacegnom on Apr 24, 2017 at 4:54 PM, finished with 320 posts and 15 votes.
  • [x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    [x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
    [x] Do not lower taxes.
    [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
    [X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
    [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
    [X] Do not lower taxes.
    [X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    [X] Do not lower taxes.
Click to expand...
 
uju32 said:
We can afford to cut our taxes in half for two years.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Taxes, once lowered often seem rather problematic when being raised to previous levels. Basically I'm not convinced that a quicker pop spawn is worth disgruntled citizens that have gotten used to paying less.

[x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
[x] Do not lower taxes.
 
BrightFusion said:
@RichardWhereat How about Lond Daer? It can be resupplied by sea if necessary, is at the mouth of a large river and relatively close to Tharbad, which is still settled.

Isengard may not exist as an independent power in this timeline depending on what happens. We do have the Dunlendings to deal with at some point down the line though.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is true, but the population isn't large enough yet to support a new actual city. For the meantime having fortified settlements on the Brandywine, its tributaries, or close enough march would project power, and provide safe areas to farm, which brings in refugees and tradespeople, which increases access to food, tax, and an increased rate of population growth.

The downside to Lond Daer is its close proximity to the Dunlendings, distance from reinforcements if Orcs come down from the mountains, and lack of forests from when it was cataclysmically deforested. Unless elves, or ents are brought in to help reforest the area for renewable harvesting, it's not going to be viable for quite some time. However sending settlers and a portion of the army there to build a city and other fortified settlements would protect Minhiriath and bring it into the nation. May be an idea for a decade down the line.

For the meantime, the city is new, and it needs to bring in resources, people, and project power down its own river and environs so that it can attract refugees from Arnor, and tradesmen from Ered Luin. Of course, projecting power is a great way of defending its citizens, upholding the law, and attracting more population.

Tharbad's an important location, it helps control access on the Greyflood, and waters all the way to Rivendell. But that's an issue for later.

@BrightFusion I assume you want to extend across Minhiriath and Enedwaith? If not into Harlindon itself.
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
Taxes, once lowered often seem rather problematic when being raised to previous levels. Basically I'm not convinced that a quicker pop spawn is worth disgruntled citizens that have gotten used to paying less.
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Click to shrink...
This is a game, not RL.
And in this world, there are Consequences for not being big enough to weather actual problems.
Consequences that everyone alive remembers. Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Do remember that this is the THIRD iteration of the Northern kingdom.
It's been destroyed twice before, by being steamrolled by enemies who we weren't big enough or sturdy enough to defeat. They are not going to leave us alone forever, even with Gondor and the Elves having helped cut them back to size.

The city is less than ten years old.
We need to grow fast, and we need to get up to a size where we can beat off Ork/troll/hostile men attack without having to have Gondor or Rivendell bail us out; they will have problems of their own sooner or later, and will need our help.

And that doesn't even account for the fact that there be literal Dragons up north.

TL ; DR
Taxes? Not a problem.
Not when people remember what the alternatives are.
 
[X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
[X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]

Why not lower taxes permanently? Population is the ones who work the farms and quarries and work in the city; population > gold any day of the week.

So, uh, I am all for lowering taxes for the foreseeable future, because taxes are way less useful than workers.
 
[X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract
[X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]

Seems reasonable enough.
 
RichardWhereat said:
This is true, but the population isn't large enough yet to support a new actual city. For the meantime having fortified settlements on the Brandywine, its tributaries, or close enough march would project power, and provide safe areas to farm, which brings in refugees and tradespeople, which increases access to food, tax, and an increased rate of population growth.

The downside to Lond Daer is its close proximity to the Dunlendings, distance from reinforcements if Orcs come down from the mountains, and lack of forests from when it was cataclysmically deforested. Unless elves, or ents are brought in to help reforest the area for renewable harvesting, it's not going to be viable for quite some time. However sending settlers and a portion of the army there to build a city and other fortified settlements would protect Minhiriath and bring it into the nation. May be an idea for a decade down the line.

For the meantime, the city is new, and it needs to bring in resources, people, and project power down its own river and environs so that it can attract refugees from Arnor, and tradesmen from Ered Luin. Of course, projecting power is a great way of defending its citizens, upholding the law, and attracting more population.

Tharbad's an important location, it helps control access on the Greyflood, and waters all the way to Rivendell. But that's an issue for later.

@BrightFusion I assume you want to extend across Minhiriath and Enedwaith? If not into Harlindon itself.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Regarding Lond Daer, Orcs and Dunlendings would have to march at least 250 miles, through terrain without any supply line, if they want to even have a chance at threatening Lond Daer. If they are raiding, city walls would be sufficient to keep them out. If they are terminally stupid enough to siege, they would be trying to starve out a settlement which can be easily resupplied by sea, while they are sitting at the tail end of a 250 mile supply line, without any road passing through whatsoever. As long as the fortifications are up, it should be fine.

But yes, I agree it is not urgent in terms of priority. An closer alternative would be Sarn Ford. It is a strategic location as it is one of the few crossings of the Brandywine. Furthermore, the only surviving settlements are Bree and The Shire, which are extremely close to Sarn Ford - this is useful for both trade, military aid if necessary, and power projection. I think a settlement there would be a logical choice.

Minhiriath and Enedwaith are good locations to secure - but yes it can wait.
 
[x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
[x] Do not lower taxes.
 
[X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract
[X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
 
[X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
[X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
[X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
[X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
 
So, does the city building quest work by democratic vote, or through that, and civilised argument to advance positions?
 
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