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City Building in Middle-Earth

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BrightFusion said:
I think we are overly concerned about what happened in the past. We can't change it, the only thing we can make sure is to think before voting and make sure mistakes don't happen again.

@Sayle can we just take them under our protection instead of as spoils, should we choose to take the second option? Also are all the men killed already, and what happens to the boys?
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I'd assume young boys are included in 'children'. This wasn't root and branch cleansing, just killing those who fought (basically all the men). You could take them under your 'protection', but politically independent they're unlikely to survive.

It's not like the cultural assimilation of non-Numenoreans isn't a proud tradition. Elendil didn't take Arnor and Gondor (which includes Rohan) by either being nice or by just populating it with the people from the three ships out of Numenor and minor Numenorean ports.
 
FriedIce said:
And if it had just been a punative action of 'kill the chief and a bunch of his people to stop them from raiding our logging' I don't think anyone would have cared. Instead we apparently decided to indulge in the fullest extent of hubris available to us and take 'no I'm not going to stop raiding you' as an invitation to murder everyone of fighting age in their tribe and enslave and rape who remain.
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.....

Why does it feel like you're assigning modern values to a medieval setting?
 
@Sayle so is this allowed?

[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young under their protection, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.

@FriedIce what's done is done. As far as I am aware there are no time machines in LoTR. We can't prevent the mistake since it already happened, so we need to think of solutions rather than dwell on it too long.
 
[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for thepeople of Arthedain had had lost their own.
 
BrightFusion said:
@Sayle so is this allowed?

[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young under their protection, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.

@FriedIce what's done is done. As far as I am aware there are no time machines in LoTR. We can't prevent the mistake since it already happened, so we need to think of solutions rather than dwell on it too long.
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I'd argue that as written that's a bad idea because it allows their culture to continue as a separate entity and simply puts off the problem until the next generation. Also protection is rather nebulous. I'll keep the sentiment in mind, but I think it would be better to stick with the established options.
 
[X] Victorious they returned to the city with spoils of food and timber, and the children of the House of Haleth were put to work in the fields for the sins of their fathers.
 
Sayle said:
I'd argue that as written that's a bad idea because it allows their culture to continue as a separate entity and simply puts off the problem until the next generation. Also protection is rather nebulous. I'll keep the sentiment in mind, but I think it would be better to stick with the established options.
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What I mean is to take them in and assimilate them. What I was concerned about is forced marriages and treating them as property instead as human beings. I meant physical rather than cultural protection.

And besides, there might be a few things we could learn from them as well. If it is pragmatic to do so, I don't see why not.
 
[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.

Before voting, do keep in mind that so far nobody has provided any explicit evidence that Numenorean bloodline can be 'diluted'.
 
[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.
 
[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.

Thats what basically happened, according to the family legend, to one of my ancestors with the Western Cherokee. They kidnapped her to replace a daughter lost to disease, treated her very well, and she went and married a brave. By all accounts she lived by the traditions of the tribe but decided not to raise her children that way, and we all put white on the census forms so we have no paperwork to back it up.
 
[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.
 
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Early TA 1982
  • Threadmarks
    • The survivors of the Wildmen are dispersed through the population, and life moves on. The logging camp is re-established in the vicinity of Eryn Vorn and the lebethron is once again available to finance Ost Falasuin's trading needs. This is fortunate as the treasury diminishes with each shipment of stone from Gondor, and there is serious discussion about the possibility of halving the population of the city to establish a second settlement closer to the Blue Mountains.

    In the interim, however, the courts move into action as buildings are occupied by clerks and guardsmen who have previously been forced to endure conditions in the increasingly cramped and rundown city center. With a central authority visibly in place to arbitrate sentencing and the varied disputes incurred in the day-to-day running of a large congregation of people there is an immediate drop in complaints of petty theft or other minor crimes. It is not a moment too soon when the docks are built, providing opportunities for shipbuilding that may potentially allow trade at greater quantities.

    This is certainly on the mind of the traders from Dol Amroth when they arrive and moor at the new docks. There are new opportunities available, and while they attempt to increase the price of stone you narrowly avoid giving into their arguments. Their offer to trade for metal is so laughably extortionate it's hard to even be offended. Far more notable is the short-term offer for a fixed two year contract. They are willing to buy wood 1 gold above market price and sell food 1 gold below, in the usual quantities.

    [ ] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [ ] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    [ ] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)

    In addition to this the slow pace of growth has raised questions about taxation. At present taxes are normal, but lowering them would allow the purchase of more food for the average citizen and increase a sense of security. Feelings of prosperity are often as good as the real thing for encouraging growth.

    [ ] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
    [ ] Do not lower taxes.
    Adhoc vote count started by Sayle on Apr 24, 2017 at 10:11 AM, finished with 6 posts and 4 votes.
    • [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
      [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
      [X] Do not lower taxes.
      [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
      [x] Do not lower taxes.
      [x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
      [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
      [x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
      [x] Do not lower taxes.
    Click to expand...

    Adhoc vote count started by Sayle on Apr 24, 2017 at 4:39 PM, finished with 33 posts and 15 votes.
    • [x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
      [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
      [x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
      [x] Do not lower taxes.
      [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
      [X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
      [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
      [X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
      [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
      [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
      [X] Do not lower taxes.
      [X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
      [X] Do not lower taxes.
    Click to expand...

    Adhoc vote count started by Sayle on Apr 25, 2017 at 4:32 AM, finished with 328 posts and 20 votes.
    • [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
      [X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
      [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
      [X] Lower Taxes (1 Gold per 2 Population) [+50% Growth]
      [x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
      [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
      [x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
      [x] Do not lower taxes.
      [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
      [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
      [X] Do not lower taxes.
      [X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
      [X] Do not lower taxes.
      [x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
      [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
      [x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
    Click to expand...
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • [x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    [x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)

    Hmm, unsure about the wood selling. On one hand, we are back in wood surplus. On the other hand, we need building materials. As for the food, we have gold. No reason not too buy while it is in sale.

    Edit: Eh, we only have residential disctrict on the queue that's needing wood. Okay then. And Stone is still a must.

    [x] Do not lower taxes.

    Lowering tax would put us into deficit. Later perhaps. Once we got more trade going.
     
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    It's only two years worth of wood, and the price is high. Let's take advantage of it while we can. We still need more stone.
    [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)

    Our growth is currently at a pace we can cope with. Once we've got a proper civic district and we renovate the city center, then yeah, sure I'd be happy to lower taxes to increase growth.

    [X] Do not lower taxes.
     
    [x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    [x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
    [x] Do not lower taxes.
    Wood and food is a net gain of +4 gold for us, and we're gonna need that stone.
    And since growth is mostly a function of food, we can kick up growth with a food surplus and be more financially solvent than by lowering taxes
     
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    [X] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [X] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)


    [X] Do not lower taxes.
     
    Theunderbolt said:
    It sounds like we may have butterflied Aragorn by choosing this option.

    That is if we don't get rekt further down the line.
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    We arent the only Dunedain in Eriador. Aragorn came from the descendents of one of the other kingdoms, I believe, not the one we are the remnants of.

    He came from the Dunedain that had fled towards the Troll-fells near Imladris. Which was how Aragorn knew and was such good friends with Elrond and his family.

    Sayle said:
    I'd assume young boys are included in 'children'. This wasn't root and branch cleansing, just killing those who fought (basically all the men). You could take them under your 'protection', but politically independent they're unlikely to survive.

    It's not like the cultural assimilation of non-Numenoreans isn't a proud tradition. Elendil didn't take Arnor and Gondor (which includes Rohan) by either being nice or by just populating it with the people from the three ships out of Numenor and minor Numenorean ports.
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    Click to shrink...


    It is important to note that much of whatw as originall Numenor was extremely lightly populated, if it was populated at all.

    The Rohorrim are actually the former Horse Lords of Rhovanion, and didnt arrive until MUCH later.

    The only major group of people I know of other than the Druedain of West Gondor/the Enedwaith were the River Men who lived around the mouth of the Anduin.

    In fact, the only two places where cross-breeding between Dunedain and non-Dunedain is an actual thing is both around the mouth of the Anduin between Dunedain and River-men and in the area just north of Minas Tirith around Calenhad on the way towards the former province of Calenhardon (Rohan).

    Other than that, the Druedain were forced out (not exterminated) which is how the tribal confederation of the Enedwaith came to be (which eventually aided the forces of Order in the War of the Ring and were eventually incorporated into the Reunited Kingdom after the people of the Enedwaith defeated the Dunlendings).
     
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    [ ] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [ ] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)

    [ ] Lower the taxes. The population boom is important at this stage, so that defenders are available, and future armies can come quicker.

    I'd also recommend taking seeds from the Lebethron trees and planting them all around the place. Invite elves to come and help them grow. Start a renewable logging operation so that generations after generations can prosper from the trade. Maybe they can teach your people arts of growing magic?

    Racial Diplomacy.

    The Grey Havens aren't too far away, and they're masters of shipbuilding. Their aid in designing a port city would be immense.
    Ered Luin is just a stones throw away, and they're master miners. A century long treaty that allows them the right to mine your metals in exchange for a percentage, and training would benefit you greatly. Their aid in designing a fortified city would be immense.
    The Shire is just upriver, and was founded only 381 years ago. Having a second source of food for those lean winters would be beneficial. Consider building a trading post at the Brandywine Bridge. They are otherwise strategically useless.
     
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    @Sayle Market prices are still the same as last year? Did we finish all three building projects in one year? What is our treasury currently at?
     
    [X] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    In case of a bad winter we already have some wood stored in a longhouse, plus now that the Wildmen problem has been dealt with, logging can be done even in winter, even if with some difficulties. Better to buy more food in case of a bad harvest or a winter colder than normal.

    [X] Do not lower taxes.
    The growth would have been nice, but I'd like for our settlement to establish itself more firmly before a population boom happens. Build up more districts, a nice stone wall to repel invaders, set up a more efficient militia and training program... then we can talk about population growth, so that our citizens don't have to build another shantytown outside our walls.
     
    kahn1234 said:
    We arent the only Dunedain in Eriador. Aragorn came from the descendents of one of the other kingdoms, I believe, not the one we are the remnants of.

    He came from the Dunedain that had fled towards the Troll-fells near Imladris. Which was how Aragorn knew and was such good friends with Elrond and his family.
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    Click to shrink...

    Aragorn is a direct descendent of Arvedui, from the direct male line of Isildur (High King of Arnor) and Arvedui's wife, sole remaining daughter of the direct male line of Anarion(King of Gondor) and by the laws of Numenor rightful Queen of Gondor.

    Except the Steward and nobility of Gondor elected the victorious general Earnil II, current King of Gondor, instead.
     
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    [x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    [x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
    [x] Do not lower taxes.
     
    [x] Sell 2 Wood (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price+1]
    + 6
    [x] Buy 2 Food (TA1983-TA1984) [Market Price-1]
    - 2
    [x] Buy 2 Stone [Market Price] (Renew Contract)
    - 6
    [x] Do not lower taxes.
    + 2
    + 3 Lebethron
    So, our treasury will be 16 with income 3 (Edit: wrong 6 check next page). A bit tight but I think we can manage.
     
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