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City Building in Middle-Earth

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[X] Victorious they returned to the city with spoils of food and timber, and the children of the House of Haleth were put to work in the fields for the sins of their fathers.
This is serfdom, a practice I think not uncommon in Middle Earth. I think what the Rohirrim did to the Dunlendings or what the Numenorians did to the "Middle-Men" wasn't to dissimilar. We can always reform our Serfdom later, for example make it last only a limited amount of generation.
This option puts our enemies in our fields. The other one puts them into our homes and dilutes the bloodline of Numenor.
Adhoc vote count started by Spacegnom on Apr 24, 2017 at 6:46 AM, finished with 251 posts and 12 votes.
  • [X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.
    [X] Victorious they returned to the city with spoils of food and timber, and the children of the House of Haleth were put to work in the fields for the sins of their fathers.
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Spacegnom said:
[X] Victorious they returned to the city with spoils of food and timber, and the children of the House of Haleth were put to work in the fields for the sins of their fathers.
This is serfdom, a practice I think not uncommon in Middle Earth. I think what the Rohirrim did to the Dunlendings or what the Numenorians did to the "Middle-Men" wasn't to dissimilar. We can always reform our Serfdom later, for example make it last only a limited amount of generation.
This option puts our enemies in our fields. The other one puts them into our homes and dilutes the bloodline of Numenor.
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The 'bloodline of Numenor' doesn't work that way. King Eldacar of Gondor was only half-Numenorean, but his lifespan was that of a full Numenorean, and he was not weaker or anything either. This way of thinking was basically what caused the Kin-Strife.

The decay of Numenorean traits is either due to lack of piety or slow withdrawal of the Valar's gift after the downfall of Numenor itself.
 
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BrightFusion said:
The 'bloodline of Numenor' doesn't work that way. King Eldacar of Gondor was only half-Numenorean, but his lifespan was that of a full Numenorean, and he was not weaker or anything either. This way of thinking was basically what caused the Kin-Strife.

The decay of Numenorean traits is either due to lack of piety or slow withdrawal of the Valar's gift after the downfall of Numenor itself.
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Breeding with the men of Middle Earth is repeatedly called out in multiple places as diluting the Numenorean bloodlines. it might not be the sole factor, but it absolutely is a factor in the diminishment of Men in Arda.


[X] Victorious they returned to the city with spoils of food and timber, and the children of the House of Haleth were put to work in the fields for the sins of their fathers.
 
Dark Abstraction said:
Breeding with the men of Middle Earth is repeatedly called out in multiple places as diluting the Numenorean bloodlines. it might not be the sole factor, but it absolutely is a factor in the diminishment of Men in Arda.
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@Dark Abstraction do you have any quotes or explicit evidence that support this theory? Keep in mind that sources 'written' by people from Gondor or Numenor regarding this matter have been proven wrong before (my previous post explained one example), so 'Word of God' or hard evidence would be useful here.

I'd put it this way - the half-Northman Eldacar lived longer than two of the later pure-blooded kings of Numenor itself. Numenorean lifespan began decreasing after they rejected the Elves and the Valar - the one king that reversed this trend was the one who repented.
 
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Sayle said:
Thus the Dúnedain entered Eryn Vorn and there the valor of Old Arnor was shown in full, for in the Dúnedain was the might of Númenor. The streams of Eryn Vorn ran red in the slaughter, and the Wildmen were laid low to a man, and their hidden fastness within the forest was overthrown.
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I'm not happy about this.
If I'd been aware genocide was on the menu, I'd have voted otherwise.
Destruction of this sort lessens Middle Earth, and doing it for gold is....

Sayle said:
Why? It's wiping out a tribe that attacked you. That's a total non-event. Rohan is going to be doing the same thing to the Dunlendings on a much larger scale for the next hundreds of years.
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Yeah, the Rohirrim.
The men of Gondor, the children of Elendil are supposed to be a little more farsighted; closer to Faramir than Boromir, if you get my meaning.


VOTE
[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.

Lesser of two evils, under the circumstances.
Indenture/serfdom looks entirely too much like what Numenor in it's decadence got up to in Middle Earth.

EDIT
*checks*
Yup, and that was the kind of thinking that got Gondor the Kin-Strife.
Best to nip it in the bud right here.
Not like they aren't Edain.
 
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Sayle said:
Why? It's wiping out a tribe that attacked you. That's a total non-event. Rohan is going to be doing the same thing to the Dunlendings on a much larger scale for the next hundreds of years.
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And when Saruman comes around, they'll pay for it.

Oh well. We tried. And I rather doubt the Wildmen would have been any better, had they been the victors. At least it doesn't seem like we left any non-captured survivors to make trouble for us in the future.

[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.

I don't much like it, but it's preferable to establishing a serf caste.
 
[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for thepeople of Arthedain had had lost their own.
 
Sayle said:
Why? It's wiping out a tribe that attacked you. That's a total non-event. Rohan is going to be doing the same thing to the Dunlendings on a much larger scale for the next hundreds of years.
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That kinda backfired when Saruman came around.

uju32 said:
I'm not happy about this.
If I'd been aware genocide was on the menu, I'd have voted otherwise.
Destruction of this sort lessens Middle Earth, and doing it for gold is....
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This is basically Sauron's dream - his enemies weakening each other before he swoops in for the kill.
 
[X] And from the forest the victors bore out food and timber, and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own.
Maybe have the captured form a lower caste of labourers and can rise up in society only through military service?

The first option sounds too much like slavery to me, or indentured servitude for my liking. The second option actually makes more sense and has happened historically. The victors taking with them the women and children of their enemy etc.
 
BrightFusion said:
The 'bloodline of Numenor' doesn't work that way. King Eldacar of Gondor was only half-Numenorean, but his lifespan was that of a full Numenorean, and he was not weaker or anything either. This way of thinking was basically what caused the Kin-Strife.

The decay of Numenorean traits is either due to lack of piety or slow withdrawal of the Valar's gift after the downfall of Numenor itself.
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True, but I don't feel like marrying the wives of our murdered enemies can be equated with intermarrying with longtime northmen allies. It is serfdom versus forcefully taking their wives and children. I don't think the later is more in line with the ideals of the Valar.
 
Spacegnom said:
True, but I don't feel like marrying the wives of our murdered enemies can be equated with intermarrying with longtime northmen allies. It is serfdom versus forcefully taking their wives and children. I don't think the later is more in line with the ideals of the Valar.
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I don't really like either option currently tbh. Choosing to go to war should have been one of last resort. Our current dilemma is already the best possible outcome; things could have been worse. There is only one way to dilute the bloodline of Numenor - committing acts like the one we just did.

I don't think I'll vote this time.
 
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BrightFusion said:
I don't really like either option currently tbh. Choosing to go to war should have been one of last resort. Our current dilemma is already the best possible outcome; things could have been worse. There is only one way to dilute the bloodline of Numenor - committing acts like the one we just did.

I don't think I'll vote this time.
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Yeah, I didn't expect this outcome either. But, I think we will probably get options down the road to make either choice less "dark".
 
Sayle said:
Why? It's wiping out a tribe that attacked you. That's a total non-event. Rohan is going to be doing the same thing to the Dunlendings on a much larger scale for the next hundreds of years.
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The difference is the inhabitants of Eryn Vorn are just trying to protect their forest.

The Dunlendings were, however, arseholes who (if my memory serves) picked a fight they couldnt win against Rohan. The Dunlendings were also out and out supporters of Sauron.

Also, Rohan are Northmen, not Dunedain. Gondor and the Elves would hold the descendents of Arnor to a higher standard than the North and Middle men.
 
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I admit, I'm a little miffed that 'send a punative expedition' turned into 'murder every last man, enslave the boys and rape the women'

I mean, really? The Dunedain are supposed to be better than this.

Especially since we were explicitly offered the chance to drive them out and we rejected it by a margin of 10:1. Seriously Sayle, this is both out of character for the Dunedain and for Arvedui, and explicitly against the choice of the players.
 
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BrightFusion said:
The 'bloodline of Numenor' doesn't work that way. King Eldacar of Gondor was only half-Numenorean, but his lifespan was that of a full Numenorean, and he was not weaker or anything either. This way of thinking was basically what caused the Kin-Strife.
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I can't back this up with a quote, at least not that fast. But I think that both blood and spiritual purity are important, reinforcing or compensating for the other. Yeah, if you're wise and noble half-dunedain, you'll be granted longevity and prowess on par with numenorians of old. But if you've got pure bloodline you can all but worship Morgoth and still live for two hundreds years. We're obviously not wise and noble here, so I'd prefer the atonement, if any, done in form that doesn't include losing the bloodline.
 
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BrightFusion said:
Or to put it this way:
-We built a settlement right at someone else's doorstep, metaphorically speaking at least.
-We enter someone else's territory and begin extracting resources without asking permission.
-The people whose territory we invaded decide to attack us for some reason. That reason is unclear but it is not exactly rocket science.
-We don't make an effort to understand why they defended themselves, or we don't care.
-Instead, we send in an army to wipe them out without any attempt at diplomacy.

Just because other OTL factions made a mistake doesn't mean we have to follow. We fell for this, hook, line and sinker.

This is not just a moral matter. The wildmen are obviously able to sustain themselves, and could have been of military assistance if required. We lost a potential ally at the very least.

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Except we didn't do that, we overwhelmingly voted for the 'show them we're not to be messed with then apply diplomacy' option, which is overwhelmingly not what we got.

If this is going to happen every time we attempt to leverage our force of arms against someone then we're better off taking a vow of pacifism.

[X] Gripped by the horrors that have been inflicted upon their enemy by them, the circle of the king take a vow of pacifism, that their actions will never again sully their spirit
 
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As an illustration, you rolled a 7 (borderline) to get them to come talk to you, then 1 on the outcome. You could have disengaged from the point of conflict entirely (ie, just logging towards the Blue Mountains instead, which was explicitly given as an option), but you chose to make a military expedition and force the issue with the implicit message of 'we will try and get rid of you if you don't stop this'. Basically you crit failed your actual negotiation roll, and honestly being told 'you suck, your ancestors suck, and no we're not going to give back the stuff we stole after our unprovoked attack or give any reparation for the people we killed' were absolutely fighting words from the Wildmen chieftain.

Keep in mind that Arnor broke up because of a civil war, the successor kingdoms regularly fought each other, and Gondor had the Kin-strife over what was basically blood purity. The Dunedain of Eriador haven't had a millennium of exile keeping the North safe to humble them.

PS: I'm sorry that a lot of people wanted diplomacy and that maybe this wasn't indicated clearly, but diplomacy with a small army backing you up implicitly involves potentially using said army if you don't get what you want. You don't start a conflict with a tribe then not kill them. You could have just stopped the point of conflict by not logging over there anymore and left the issue for later. Equally the Wildmen could have tried to communicate before trying to drive you off.
 
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FriedIce said:
Except we didn't do that, we overwhelmingly voted for the 'show them we're not to be messed with then apply diplomacy' option, which is overwhelmingly not what we got.

If this is going to happen every time we attempt to leverage our force of arms against someone then we're better off taking a vow of pacifism.
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Having re-read the previous posts, I'm retracting this. We did try to negotiate, but if the other side doesn't bulge it has to end at a point.

That said, I do think we need to be careful in dealing with the non-combatants.

FriedIce said:
I admit, I'm a little miffed that 'send a punative expedition' turned into 'murder every last man, enslave the boys and rape the women'

I mean, really? The Dunedain are supposed to be better than this.

Especially since we were explicitly offered the chance to drive them out and we rejected it by a margin of 10:1. Seriously Sayle, this is both out of character for the Dunedain and for Arvedui, and explicitly against the choice of the players.
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Will there be any enslaving or raping though? @Sayle can we just take them under our protection instead of as spoils? Also are all the men killed already, and what happens to the boys?
 
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Sayle said:
As an illustration, you rolled a 7 (borderline) to get them to come talk to you, then 1 on the outcome.
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So what you're saying is that dice outcomes matter more than both the In Character motivations of both the Dunedain and Arvedui and how the players explicitly, overwhelming voted?

I know it seems like I'm overly salty about this, but I know I didn't sign up to play The Fall of Numerour 2: Dunedain Boogaloo and to have it forced on me due to /dice rolls/ is more than a little galling.

If this is going to happen every time we roll a 1 on diplomacy we should never try to apply diplomacy again.

Edit: I'm going to go afk for a bit, it seems sensible to try and walk off my irritation.
 
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BrightFusion said:
Will there be any enslaving or raping though? @Sayle can we just take them under our protection instead of as spoils? Also are all the men killed already, and what happens to the boys?
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There's choice between forced serfdom (not exactly all-out slavery) and forced marriages (not exactly all-out rape).
FriedIce said:
o what you're saying is that dice outcomes matter more than both the In Character motivations of both the Dunedain and Arvedui and how the players explicitly, overwhelming voted?
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That's a drawback of playing the character with not a little amount of hubris. That was unexpected, but not at all improbable.
 
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[X] Victorious they returned to the city with spoils of food and timber, and the children of the House of Haleth were put to work in thefields for the sins of their fathers.

Fuck no to diluting Numenorean bloodline
 
FriedIce said:
So what you're saying is that dice outcomes matter more than both the In Character motivations of both the Dunedain and Arvedui and how the players explicitly, overwhelming voted?

I know it seems like I'm overly salty about this, but I know I didn't sign up to play The Fall of Numerour 2: Dunedain Boogaloo and to have it forced on me due to /dice rolls/ is more than a little galling.

If this is going to happen every time we roll a 1 on diplomacy we should never try to apply diplomacy again.
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I'm not entirely clear on why you think the Dunedain would be at all positively disposed to the people who attacked them. The Wildmen are clearly very negatively disposed to the Dunedain. Arvedui has been harassed and his people attacked. He's assembled military veterans to go sort the issue out.

Again, this was diplomacy with an army. It was a subset of a vote that involved assembling a core of military veterans in what was described as a punitive action. It was the vote that involved interacting with the Wildmen rather than just leaving them alone after they drove you off.

Yes, this was entirely preventable (but unlikely to resolve with a happy outcome). But it's not two dudes pulling swords on each other after meeting in the street.

If it helps, consider that even if they haven't been talking to each other, the Dunedain and Wildmen are just a hair short of being enemies.
 
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Sayle said:
Keep in mind that Arnor broke up because of a civil war, the successor kingdoms regularly fought each other, and Gondor had the Kin-strife over what was basically blood purity. The Dunedain of Eriador haven't had a millennium of exile keeping the North safe to humble them.
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It sounds like we may have butterflied Aragorn by choosing this option.

That is if we don't get rekt further down the line.
 
I think we are overly concerned about what happened in the past. We can't change it, the only thing we can make sure is to think before voting and make sure mistakes don't happen again.

@Sayle can we just take them under our protection instead of as spoils, should we choose to take the second option? Also are all the men killed already, and what happens to the boys?
 
Sayle said:
I'm not entirely clear on why you think the Dunedain would be at all positively disposed to the people who attacked them. The Wildmen are clearly very negatively disposed to the Dunedain. Arvedui has been harassed and his people attacked. He's assembled military veterans to go sort the issue out.

Again, this was diplomacy with an army. It was a subset of a vote that involved assembling a core of military veterans in what was described as a punitive action. It was the vote that involved interacting with the Wildmen rather than just leaving them alone after they drove you off.

Yes, this was entirely preventable (but unlikely to resolve with a happy outcome). But it's not two dudes pulling swords on each other after meeting in the street.
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And if it had just been a punative action of 'kill the chief and a bunch of his people to stop them from raiding our logging' I don't think anyone would have cared. Instead we apparently decided to indulge in the fullest extent of hubris available to us and take 'no I'm not going to stop raiding you' as an invitation to murder everyone of fighting age in their tribe and enslave and rape who remain.
 
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