Bunraku (Samurai Mecha Quest)

No7sHere said:

We are simply not in a position where we can gain any significant power or wealth by ourselves, we will have to align with someone eventually and from what we've heard about this family they are one of, if not the best options around.

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We are in position to gain power and wealth, as a puppeteer and a key asset of Summer army. Her argument is that nobody knows us and our former fame is useless. Well, it's fixable, isn't it? Service will provide us opportunities.

We are not in a position to rise up the ranks quickly without significant backing, but any backer will expect to get returns off their investments. And we probably won't rise too high on our own.

Melancholeric said:

Agreeing to in any form serve the scheming noblewoman that wants to use Tomoe in the nastiest of ways is not a good idea, and being connected with her family sends a certain sign to anyone who's watching.

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It's not like we look at her as if she is a fairy godmother either. She is not using us in a 'nastier' way than we'd be using her, or rather, her money and connections.

I'llNameThisL8r said:

Literally the only thing she can offer us is a slight edge in quality and a lot of expediency in exchange for a disproportionately large amount of obligation.

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What is a proportionate amount? I mean, we can never dream of reaching the position that would rival the Dragon's on our own, but their family does.

Maneuvering to have enough of a voice in the family to make use of that power whenever we want to is going to be tricky (and I expect our value to drop sharply if we produce an offspring who would have a claim to the throne without requiring us), but we can make it work, as we are smart, educated and talented, and our Bunraku is among the best. We can be a valuable addition to their family, and then working for them would directly benefit us, making it less of an 'obligation' and more of a good business sense.

It's workable.

[X]Reject Kozakura's offer. (There is an etiquette for doing this without offending Kozakura, but this will likely will cut anyfurther involvement with the family.)

[X]Reject Kozakura's offer. (There is an etiquette for doing this without offending Kozakura, but this will likely will cut any further involvement with the family.)

Kozakura's coming to Tomoe now because Tomoe have not yet really found her bearing in her new environment. This is when her general dissatisfaction and impatience will most likely cause her to commit to something without much forethought. Kozakura can't wait longer because should Tomoe manage to get her feet under her this whole deal will be much less attractive.

As for independence...it might be easier to find room to grow under someone who's autocratic and authoritative but generally uninterested in the business of mere mortals than under someone who's sure to micromanage every aspect your life to advance her own agenda (thinly disguised as her family's agenda). This marriage will be to a fourth grandson...that' not really a position of power or freedom.

Nevill said:

What is a proportionate amount? I mean, we can never dream of reaching the position that would rival the Dragon's on our own, but their family does.

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A proportional amount would be what we have with the Dragon, military service in exchange for room, board, wealth & aid.
She's asked for both military and political aid, information on her political rival, our title and bloodline, and a decent portion of our personal freedom in exchange for not much more than what we would have gotten regardless .

Maneuvering to have enough of a voice in the family to make use of that power whenever we want to is going to be tricky (and I expect our value to drop sharply if we produce an offspring who would have a claim to the throne without requiring us), but we can make it work, as we are smart, educated and talented, and our Bunraku is among the best. We can be a valuable addition to their family, and then working for them would directly benefit us, making it less of an 'obligation' and more of a good business sense.

It's workable.

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All of this is ignoring that she
1) is, at least in part, doing this to snub our boss. Meaning we're going to need to rely more on her after we piss him off.
2) pretty clearly considers us more of a tool or thing to be collected than business partner, and will be maneuvering to keep us more and more under her control as we try to influence the family from within.

I'llNameThisL8r said:

A proportional amount would be what we have with the Dragon, military service in exchange for room, board, wealth & aid.
She's asked for both military and political aid, information on her political rival, our title and bloodline, and a decent portion of our personal freedom in exchange for not much more than what we would have gotten regardless .

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Remind me, how well did it work for Ondo and other puppeteers that have been in our Lord's service for years? How much wealth did he gain since our last expedition? I recall him getting more indebted to his master, if anything.

It is not impossible to break through with exceptional deeds, but most people are expected to break even, if that.

Kozakura offers us something out of the box that we won't get otherwise, period. The best armsmaster is booked unless we outbid the wealthiest clan in Summer. Good luck with that. And that's just an example of what is available without a firmer commitment.

I'llNameThisL8r said:

pretty clearly considers us more of a tool or thing to be collected than business partner, and will be maneuvering to keep us more and more under her control as we try to influence the family from within.

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Of course. She has everything and an airship and we have nothing but birthright. She has the upper hand in this negotiation, and is not afraid to show it. It is up to us to worm our way up and make ourselves someone to be reckoned with. It's not a guarantee... but it's a possibility.

Nevill said:

Remind me, how well did it work for Ondo and other puppeteers that have been in our Lord's service for years? How much wealth did he gain since our last expedition? I recall him getting more indebted to his master, if anything.

It is not impossible to break through with exceptional deeds, but most people are expected to break even, if that.

Kozakura offers us something out of the box that we won't get otherwise, period. The best armsmaster is booked unless we outbid the wealthiest clan in Summer. Good luck with that. And that's just an example of what is available without a firmer commitment.

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1) Ondo is a gambler and a drunk, him being in debt is entirely expected.

Of course. She has everything and an airship and we have nothing but birthright. She has the upper hand in this negotiation, and is not afraid to show it. It is up to us to worm our way up and make ourselves someone to be reckoned with. It's not a guarantee... but it's a possibility.

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2) she's offering a flat amount of rewards and prestige. There's no 'firmer commitment,' no possibility of upward mobility, we're not getting anything more that what she gives us. Trying to get more out of her is a waste of time and effort.

[X]Accept Kozakura's offer. (While this does not lock you into marriage, this is an implicit acceptance of his courtship and tie you more closely to the Tenshin family the more you let it happen.)

[X]Reject Kozakura's offer. (There is an etiquette for doing this without offending Kozakura, but this will likely will cut any further involvement with the family.)

[X]Reject Kozakura's offer. (There is an etiquette for doing this without offending Kozakura, but this will likely will cut any further involvement with the family.)


Let's not fall for the sunk cost fallacy.

So I think the question is: What's the harm in accepting?
This isn't rhetorical by the way. I genuinely want to know how seriously this will be taken and how bad the consequences of accepting this particular offer are. If we say "Yeah sure, I'll give it a shot" but reject any future advances (we don't hit it off or have second thoughts or whatever) will many see this as allying ourselves with the family? Will we be able to break things off without making enemies?

My read is that we'd basically be agreeing to meet the dude, and promising nothing yet. If that's the case, then we really ought to
[X]Accept Kozakura's offer. (While this does not lock you into marriage, this is an implicit acceptance of his courtship and tie you more closely to the Tenshin family the more you let it happen.)

InterstellarHobo said:

So I think the question is: What's the harm in accepting?
This isn't rhetorical by the way. I genuinely want to know how seriously this will be taken and how bad the consequences of accepting this particular offer are. If we say "Yeah sure, I'll give it a shot" but reject any future advances (we don't hit it off or have second thoughts or whatever) will many see this as allying ourselves with the family? Will we be able to break things off without making enemies?

My read is that we'd basically be agreeing to meet the dude, and promising nothing yet. If that's the case, then we really ought to
Accept Kozakura's offer. (While this does not lock you into marriage, this is an implicit acceptance of his courtship and tie you more closely to the Tenshin family the more you let it happen.)

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In order: She's a political enemy of our boss and getting the better end of a very lopsided deal, some people almost certainly will, and no.

And to not promising anything by saying yes see 'this is an implicit acceptance of his courtship'.

I got the impression from Omikron's posts that accepting one or maybe two such offers was an extremely low level of commitment, and that we'd suffer minimal consequences (basically no future offers and maybe minor ill will from the Tenshin family) if we backed out early.
Accepting courtship doesn't mean we're suddenly engaged- it's merely the start of a process leading up to engagement.

InterstellarHobo said:

I got the impression from Omikron's posts that accepting one or maybe two such offers was an extremely low level of commitment, and that we'd suffer minimal consequences (basically no future offers and maybe minor ill will from the Tenshin family) if we backed out early.
Accepting courtship doesn't mean we're suddenly engaged- it's merely the start of a process leading up to engagement.

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Yes, it doesn't lock us into the engagement, but saying no at any point after this would be considered an insult.

[X]Reject Kozakura's offer. (There is an etiquette for doing this without offending Kozakura, but this will likely will cut any further involvement with the family.)

Accepting would cut into our samurai buddies time. Also MADO SCIENCE requires a lot of time.

[X]Reject Kozakura's offer. (There is an etiquette for doing this without offending Kozakura, but this will likely will cut any further involvement with the family.)

One thing I don't like about the Japanese medieval ages is that advancement is so goddamn difficult. You're expected to die with your Lord, there really isn't a bureaucracy worth the name, and daimyo hold all the land and power.

Whereas with the Chinese (Three Kingdoms and such) there are multiple routes of advancement. You can be a scholar-aristocrat and hold volumes more power than you ever would have swinging a sword. You can join the banner of a warlord and in a short few years rise to leading your own force. You can forsake the path of civil society for the jianhu and the special powers that can be acquired there.

Gotta say things would be a lot easier if we were in the second situation rather than the first.

Personally the biggest element against it for me is that we're negotiating at a disadvantage(yes, courtship is a negotiation like any other amongst nobles):

What we have to bargain with:
-Our name bloodline and what our children could bring to them politically.
-Our Bunraku
-The promise of future gains
-The promise to screw our liege in their favor(subtly of course)

What they have to bargain with is:
-Status
-Wealth
-Connections
-Land

Basically, we WILL be wrapped up in very strong bonds of obligation and debt. If we had our own land, wealth or SOME connections, then we can achieve some kind of parity and be Princess of [Place] instead of Princess of [Blank]...but we're currently practically living on charity.

Which means dealing with nobility is basically trading your loyalties around. Each time you do it your value drops as well. Earning the ability to even say No is going to be very hard.

Oh, what's that? Obtaining power and influence comes with fucking costs. What a fucking surprise.

This isn't even locking us in to this course and we should at least explore the option further, but the moment it looks like might have to give up anything, SV backs down.

Melancholeric said:

Agreeing to in any form serve the scheming noblewoman that wants to use Tomoe in the nastiest of ways is not a good idea, and being connected with her family sends a certain sign to anyone who's watching.

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She's offering a political marriage that would come with access to significant material benefits. Clearly this is using Tomoe in the "nastiest of ways".

Also, she's clearly plotting to rebel against Lord Summer, even though the only evidence we've had so far is that the family maintains a relative degree of indepdence, and, oh, would rather avoid getting into a fight over who owns that airship because it would be very messy for both sides.

Seriously, I love how people are twisting this offer into "this woman is evil and terrible and will make us go against our lord and we're BEING USED" here. Are we even reading the same fucking update?

Yeah, she's calculative and expects a return on her investment. Anyone else willing to back us would be the same.

I mean, we even had a pretty big hint when Takeda mentioned he had a thing going on with her son, people just didn't pick up on it.


Also, if we're aiming for the Imperial Throne in the long term having a heir is kiiiiind of fucking important.

I'llNameThisL8r said:

1) Ondo is a gambler and a drunk, him being in debt is entirely expected.

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Oh sure, go ahead and be the judge of that, even though you have zero fucking evidence to back it up, just cheap stereotypes.

I mean, Tomoe is also a drunk and a gambler and therefore it's also natural for her to be in debt, by your metrics.

2) she's offering a flat amount of rewards and prestige. There's no 'firmer commitment,' no possibility of upward mobility, we're not getting anything more that what she gives us. Trying to get more out of her is a waste of time and effort.

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"Join our family, have the ability to call upon to our influence and wealth when you need it" is a flat amount of rewards and doesn't offer us any potential for upward mobility, we're being scammed. Total-fucking-ally.

EDIT:

Omicron said:

Actually," he says, brow furrowing, "you're not from here, so what you might find most noteworthy is that they own one of these flying ships we see over the city once in a while. Well, they don't own it, really; they have it in keeping for lord Summer, as it technically belongs to him, but I doubt either side would like to press the issue on who really owns that ship. They're of the few who can butt heads with him."

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Keep in mind, they do have power and clout. There are presumably others who are just as, if not more powerful in Summer, but they haven't approached us.

Arcus2611 said:

Also, she's clearly plotting to rebel against Lord Summer, even though the only evidence we've had so far is that the family maintains a relative degree of indepdence, and, oh, would rather avoid getting into a fight over who owns that airship because it would be very messy for both sides.

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I find it hilarious.

- We want a self-repairing Bunraku because the idea of getting in Lord's debt like Ondo terrifies us. We need to stay independent.
- You know who also prizes their independence? The head of Tenshin family.
- This woman is fucking evil and is plotting against her rightful sire!

I am not too enthusiastic about the choice - I'd take the Ondo route any time and would rather be drinking merrily by now - but the reasoning for refusal gets weird sometimes.

This is why I would love to hear the answer to the problem Satar's brought up above - what is the meaning of independence in the setting? Can you refuse an order from your liege that you personally disagree with, or tell him 'kthxbye', take your Bunraku and leave for greater pastures at any time? Is changing allegiances no more complicated than changing apartments? What good does it do us?

I can understand the benefits for a clan that has enough power to be a governing force in their own right. But for a single person still subservient to their liege?

We lose our prospects with the likes of Tenshin if we are in Lord of Summer's pocket, but is that all? What can the Lord demand from an indebted person that he can't demand of us yet? I guess observing what would be required of Ondo could help clarify that.

I'm somewhat interested in knowing what kind of status and holdings Tomoe had in Autumn, so we can compare it to our current conditions and what we're being offered here, and also how long it took us to get to our previous position.

This would give us some sort of yardstick to judge the value what we're being offered here.

[X]Accept Kozakura's offer. (While this does not lock you into marriage, this is an implicit acceptance of his courtship and tie you more closely to the Tenshin family the more you let it happen.)

veekie said:

Basically, we WILL be wrapped up in very strong bonds of obligation and debt. If we had our own land, wealth or SOME connections, then we can achieve some kind of parity and be Princess of [Place] instead of Princess of [Blank]...but we're currently practically living on charity.

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Now this, this is a valid concern. One of the reasons I mentioned is that she wants to buy us cheap while we are at our lowest. She is basically telling us that we are a nobody and have nothing, and she is doing us a grand favor by offering as much as she did.

The important thing to note is that accepting the courtship is not accepting the deal as it is given, but merely the possibility of a deal. You tell them 'yes, you may be a worthy ally and I will consider your proposal', but there is nothing stopping you from raising your - currently not very high - value in the meantime, and then telling them that you are worth more than that, so they should give you more or you are leaving.

The nature of negotiation is that both sides try to sell high and buy low, and this is but a beginning, a preliminary agreement to start the talks.

Sure we have nothing to barter with yet, but we aren't signing the contract either. And if we fail to make something of ourselves before that time comes and remain a no-name whose blood is the most important thing about her, then why are we puffing up our cheeks?


My personal reservations about the choice come from two sources. First, having two possibly conflicting allegiances, to the family and to the liege, may be more constricting than I'd like. Second, the character perspective. It's not even the prospect of marriage or that it is political (which I feel is one of SV's peeves) - a 'ghost in the flesh' should not aspire to happiness according to Ondo, - but I would be concerned about taking obligations that might obstruct us from smiting evil with reckless abandon. Then again, we might just go for it if we think it will let us smite harder.

Arcus2611 said:

I mean, Tomoe is also a drunk and a gambler and therefore it's also natural for her to be in debt, by your metrics.

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It is. She's a gambler and a drunk without any land. Her being in debt eventually makes sense.

"Join our family, have the ability to call upon to our influence and wealth when you need it" is a flat amount of rewards and doesn't offer us any potential for upward mobility, we're being scammed. Total-fucking-ally.

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Look, if you can find something in the update saying that she will just sit idly by and let us gain more power and influence in the family that she controls without slapping us back down so we're under her thumb again, I'll back down on this. Until then I'm going to continue saying that the deal gives us no room to gain anything more than what we're given.

I'llNameThisL8r said:

It is. She's a gambler and a drunk without any land. Her being in debt eventually makes sense.

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And if I believe you here, then it makes all the more sense to accept the Tenshin offer, because otherwise we're going to eventually end up in debt.

I'llNameThisL8r said:

Look, if you can find something in the update saying that she will just sit idly by and let us gain more power and influence in the family that she controls without slapping us back down so we're under her thumb again, I'll back down on this. Until then I'm going to continue saying that the deal gives us no room to gain anything more than what we're given.

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You seem to be convinced this is some kind of trap option that will utterly screw us over in the long run and will offer us no further opportunities for advancement. If it was, do you think the GM would have offered it in the first place?

I do think it's going to come with costs, but said costs will be proprtional to the benefits, unless @Omicron decides to be malevolent (in which case we're fucked any way)