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To Secure this Beachhead of Worker's Power: A Soviet Union Quest.

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[X] A Time for Peace: Lenin proposes that we begin a second round of negotiations with Germany that will formalize the terms of the Treaty of Warsaw, end the frontier violence, and allow for the new Soviet state to be consolidated. Moving forward with this proposal might allow us to gain additional territories in the west, but we would likely be forced to pay reparations to Germany in the form of food and currency, placing a strain on the already fragile social peace. Lenin points out that an intensification of the fighting with Germany would likely lead to even greater strains placed on our food system as we are forced to draft more peasants into the army.

As has already been noted, this is the only option. Trying to continue the war or to feign the status quo would simply lead to a German offensive that we would be unable to counter, and as a result, peace would have to be concluded on significantly worse terms, as in reality happened due to Trotsky's adventure.

[X] Keep Soviet Elections Fair: Julius Martov contends that the present system works perfectly adequately, and that there is little reason to redistrict the Soviets. He points out that the Left-SR's have been loyal to the government thus far, and that engaging in such a gerrymander would only inflame the tensions that do exist. Some fear, however, is that the Left-Socialist-Revolutionaries will act to obstruct the requisition of grain so long as they sit on the executive committee - this includes the Menshevik Commissar of Food, Matvey Skobelev.

I am extremely worried that the SRs will be reabsorbed by their extremist wing here, but I am prepared to at least give them a chance. Although I certainly do not trust Skobelev - I am prepared to bet that most of his party are actually supporters of the bourgeoisie.

[X] Sack the Red Bonaparte: Joseph Stalin contends that the left-communist Trotsky cannot be trusted, and warns of a "Bonapartist conspiracy" in the military. While Trotsky was not implicated in the Entente financing of Bukharin's Moscow Circle, he does have a loyal following in the army. If the left-communists were to ever grow in popularity, he would be a formidable ally to have, though Rykov notes that their influence in the party has been decimated following the emergency congress in August.

I definitely have a deeply negative level of trust in this person.
 
Random Member said:
And yet you trust a recommendation by Stalin. Curious. :thonk:
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Our opinions on Trotsky coincide (or given my knowledge, my opinion of him is probably considerably worse), so I see no reason to disagree. Of course, I don't think Stalin can't make mistakes, but the only person in the party whose opinion and whose devotion to the ideas of the revolution I trust more is Lenin.
 
Eternal_0bserver said:
Our opinions on Trotsky coincide (or given my knowledge, my opinion of him is probably considerably worse), so I see no reason to disagree. Of course, I don't think Stalin can't make mistakes, but the only person in the party whose opinion and whose devotion to the ideas of the revolution I trust more is Lenin.
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My opinion is that OTL the entire fear of a Red Napoleon turned out to be so comically overblown that it almost discredited the idea of being afraid of a Red Napoleon for generations to come.
 
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  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by Curby on Nov 12, 2024 at 9:43 AM, finished with 61 posts and 40 votes.
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  • Voting
    • I guess now we see if throwing in the towel on the Western Front can buy enough time for us to revamp the agricultural sector. You know so our people don't starve to death, the government will not survive a severe famine.
     
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    Sovnarkom Meeting Sep. 9, 1918: Riga Negotiations, Relations with America and China, Left-Communist Question.
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    • Main Conclusions of the September 2nd Sovnarkom Meeting
    Notes Taken by Vladimir Bonch-Bruyevich
    ​
    The Council of People's Commissars met and discussed the ongoing proxy conflicts with Germany. Lenin proposed a renegotiation of the Treaty of Warsaw to draw down our troop presence in the west and secure normal trade relations. A minority of commissars led by Alexandra Kollantai argued for a more informal detente that would enable us to more easily place pressure on Germany in the future, but they were decisively outvoted by a majority skeptical of continuing the proxy conflicts. Commissar of Foreign Relations Adolph Joffe resolved to draft a diplomatic cable to Germany requesting a new round of negotiations.
    ​
    A proposal to change the structure of soviet elections was tabled, as was one to sack the general of the 1st Red Army, Leon Trotsky.

    The State of the Revolution

    Current Composition of Sovnarkom​

    PositionOfficeholderParty
    ChairmanVladmir LeninBolshevik
    Head of Council-Administration.Vladimir Bonch-BruyevichBolshevik
    Commissariat of Foreign Affairs.Adolph JoffeSocial-Democratic
    People's Commissariat for AgricultureVladimir MilyutinBolshevik
    People's Commissar of Military AffairsJoseph StalinBolshevik
    People's Commissar of Naval AffairsPavel DybenkoBolshevik
    People's Commissariat for LabourJulius MartovSocial-Democratic
    People's Commissariat for Trade and IndustryDavid RiazanovSocial-Democratic
    People's Commissariat for EducationAnatoly LunacharskyBolshevik
    People's Commissariat for FoodMatvey SkobelevSocial-Democratic
    People's Commissariat for Internal AffairsAlexei RykovBolshevik
    People's Commissariat for JusticeNikolai KylenkoBolshevik
    People's Commissariat for Nationalities.Sergo OrdzhonikidzeBolshevik
    People's Commissariat for Posts and TelegraphsLev KamenevBolshevik
    People's Commissariat for RailwaysVictor NoginBolshevik
    People's Commissariat for FinanceYuri LurinSocial-Democratic
    People's Commissariat for Social WelfareAlexandra KollantaiBolshevik
    People's Commissar for Local Self GovernmentLev KarakhanSocial-Democratic

    Changes

    Relations with Germany have increased by +10 due to our proposal for negotiations (+15) and border tensions (-5). They are now mediocre rather than skeptical.

    Tensions on the western front have decreased by -20 due to our proposal for negotiations. They are now pervasive rather than boiling.

    Kolchak has suffered additional military defeats in the caucuses, raising the morale of the Red Army (+5). We now control the Kuban!

    Foreign Policy

    Britain is currently led by Bonar Law's Tories, which have the ideology of British Conservatism. Relations are…Poor (25/100)

    Germany is currently led by Ludendorff's military dictatorship, which has the ideology of Proto-Fascism. Relations are…Mediocre (40/100)

    America is currently led by William Jennings Bryan, governing in coalition with progressive republicans and northern democrats. These have an ideology ranging from technocratic social liberalism to populist industrial democracy. Relations are currently Mediocre (40/100).

    Relations with the Ukrainian Soviet Republic are Good (65/100)
    The Ukrainian Soviet Republic's level of autonomy is High (75/100).
    Tensions on the western frontier are pervasive (65/100, relations with Germany -3 per turn)

    Political

    The government's support among the Urban Working Class is…Robust (75/100)
    The government's support among the Urban Middle Class is…Middling (50/100)
    The government's support among the Russian Peasantry is Weak (30/100)

    The standard of living for the Urban Working Class is…Impoverished (25/100)
    The standard of living among the Urban Middle Class is…Insecure (35/100).
    The standard of living for the peasantry is…Impoverished (20/100)

    The power of the Bolsheviks is predominant (50/100)
    Among the Urban Working Class, the Bolsheviks are…Beloved (90/100)
    Among the Peasantry, the Bolsheviks are…Mistrusted (35/100)

    Right now, the Bolsheviks are dominated by the Leninist Center, which holds 75/100 of the party's political capital, ahead of Kamenev's right-bolsheviks (15/100) and the left-communists (10/100).

    The power of the Mensheviks is influential (15/100)
    Among the Urban Working Class, the Mensheviks are…Trusted (65/100)
    Among the Peasantry, the Mensheviks are…Mistrusted (35/100)

    Right now, the Left-SR's are acclaimed (80/100) by the peasantry, their power is significant (10/100) and they are mistrustful (35/100) of the present government!

    Military

    The size of the Red Army is mediocre (40/100)
    The morale of the Red Army is solid (70/100)
    The quality, supply, technological sophistication and training of the Red army is pathetic (15/100)
    …Leading to an Army strength (size + morale/quality times .5) of Weak (787.5/5000)
    Right now, the Red Army keeps around 70% of its forces in the west, giving us a western frontier strength of 551

    The size of the German Army is large (80/100)
    The morale of the German Army is waning (35/100)
    The quality, supply, technological sophistication and training of the German Army is robust (70/100)
    …Leading to an Army Strength of (4025/5000) Very Strong
    Right now, Germany keeps around 20% of its forces in the east, giving them a western frontier strength of 805, to which should be added the Austrian Eastern Army Strength of 905, the Western Ukrainian army strength of 150, and the Finnish Army strength of 60, giving a total of 1920.

    Right now, the likely result of a confrontation with Germany would be Abysmal (0/100) (Formula: German Army Strength - Soviet Army Strength/10.)

    Sovnarkom Meeting on September 9th, 1918​

    Once again, the eighteen people's commissars of the Russian Soviet Republic gather. The Chairman, Lenin, begins the session by going over minor agenda items, subjecting some of them to a vote. The gathered commissars are unusually quiet, almost expectant. Finally, the Bolshevik leader turns his attention to a small, frayed letter with the seal of the German Kaiser upon it, which he straightens several times before reading:

    "We are pleased to receive your request to formalize the final terms of the Treaty of Warsaw. We propose to meet in the city of Riga at your earliest convenience; a hotel has already been furnished and prepared for such an occasion. A delegation will be sent from Berlin led by Gustav Stresemann, who is authorized to speak on behalf of the German Empire. We simply request that these negotiations, until completed, remain confidential; there are parties who believe they would benefit from sabotaging the achievement of a final settlement."

    All of the people's commissars knew of the German response, but none besides Lenin and a few others in his inner circle had heard the precise details. The last portion, regarding the secrecy of the agreements, is interesting - most understand that this is a reference to Petliura's Ukrainian People's Republic, which has been at loggerheads with Germany for some time, despite being an ostensible client state. The selection of Stresemann is also somewhat unusual; he is not officially a member of German's foreign ministry, but instead an "advisor" to the military dictator Ludendorff who has accumulated a great deal of power due to his prowess in organizing the war economy. It is unclear if he technically possesses formal authorization to negotiate a treaty, though the cable has been signed by the German chancellor and bears the seal of the Kaiser.

    On the Matter of Priorities in Negotiations (Pick 3)

    In the Sovnarkom meeting, discussion immediately turns to the matter of the negotiations. There will be opportunities to wring concessions from Germany in return for grain shipments, but these will not be unlimited. We must decide what matters to prioritize. So far, six options have been mooted.

    []Ports in the Far North and Baltics: We could press Germany to return the ports of Narva and Murmansk to us. Narva has been a hotbed of insurrectionary red activity, and Germany may be glad to get rid of it. As a Baltic port, it will remain blockaded from most trade by Britain, but it will improve our supply of grain and other goods to northwest Russia, and allow us to trade more easily with Germany. Murmansk is another story - Britain has not dedicated ships to blockading this Finnish-held port, and securing it should allow us to trade with the Americas.

    []Demand the Ukrainian Heartland: If we are going to have any hope of consolidating the new soviet state, we must press for the return of the agriculturally-rich lands of Western Ukraine and German recognition of the Ukrainian Soviet Republic. We know that Germany is fed up with Petliura's government, but also quite reluctant to administer the territories themselves. Their attempt at a coup to place Hetman Pavlo Skorapidskyi in charge has already failed. If we press hard for them to return all the lands east of Rivne, they may buckle.

    []Secure German non-interference in the caucuses: Ever since the British captured Constantinople, Germany has been cut off from their Turkish ally in the east. Yet with the Entente's prospects looking grim, it might be a prudent idea to get a German guarantee of non-interference in our efforts to reconquer the formerly Russian lands of Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan. The former two already look like they may drift naturally into our sphere of influence, while Azerbaijan is in the midst of a war with Armenia and Britain, which has successfully seized Baku.

    []Request German industrial aid and capital goods: We may be the world's first worker's government, but our industrial base is piteous compared to many capitalist states. We must begin forthwith the expansion of our industry - this will provide us with the goods needed to trade for grain and allow us to ultimately mechanize our inefficient agriculture.

    []Reduce Reparations Payments: Germany is sure to demand harsh reparations, and our focus should be on making these as mild as possible. Right now, our peasants are barely producing enough to feed our own country, and overly punitive reparations might very well lead to famine and peasant insurrection.

    []Ask for a loan: Receiving a loan from Germany would provide us with crucial foreign currency that could be used to trade with neutrals or rebuild our own state-apparatus, which is currently in a rather parlous condition.

    On the Matter of Offers to the Germans (Pick between 0-3)

    The Germans will be more liable to meet our demands if we offer them something in return. We have several options...

    (If 50% or more of voters pick (x) options, (x) options will be chosen. For each option picked, one of our choices in [Prioritize in Negotiations] will be empowered.)

    []Crimea, with an offensive: We could offer Crimea to the Germans. We do not currently control the Peninsula, but the white forces there will have trouble holding out without continual resupply from Britain. We can commit to an offensive in the area, and turn over the region to the Germans following its conquest. (Note: This will lower British opinions of us, and might inflame the SR's as well.

    []Rosa Luxemburg and German Emigres (counts for all 3!): Returning Luxemburg and the German emigre socialists to Ludendorff would be a real gesture of conciliation, but it would also tar us in the eyes of the international socialist movement. Nonetheless, there are many People's Commissars who believe that the German emigres, with their support for the left-communists, have been nothing but a nuisance, and long for some way to be rid of them. (Note: This will drastically improve our relations with Germany, opening up new diplomatic options in the future, but might also harm the prospects of a German revolution!).

    []Rights to the Donbas Coal Fields: The Donbas coal fields are the largest and most productive in Russia. Their reconquest has given us a key source of this vital industrial raw material and allowed our munitions factories to start humming along once more. Giving Germany the resource rights to this coal will slow down our industry somewhat, but it will also give us a vital supply of German marks, which are still competitive on the world market.

    []Oil Rights in Baku: We do not control Baku, but with Kolchak's 1st volunteer army in tatters, we should soon be able to march south across the caucuses and confront the British presence there. The new prominence of the "landship" on the western front has lent renewed importance to oil, and offering the Germans rights to 40% of the Baku oil will make it difficult for them to refuse our other requests. Of course, this will draw us into much more direct conflict with Britain, and require a military commitment to a southern offensive. (Note: This will significantly lower the British opinion of us).

    On the Matter of America (Pick 1)

    Following the discussion of the upcoming negotiations, Sovnarkom turned to other foreign policy matters. Firstly, there is the question of America. Currently, our Soviet Republic is only recognized by the German Empire as the legitimate government of Russia; securing American recognition would lessen our international isolation and open the way to trade with the world's largest industrial power. However, some of the people's commissars have concerns...

    []Maintain the Status Quo: Adolph Joffe points out that typically, foreign treaties have to pass through the American legislature, where there is a great deal of hostility toward our worker's government. Petitioning Bryan to pass such a treaty would likely harm his own political prospects and might make him more vulnerable to a rumored impeachment attempt. Of course, it is hardly our job to defend the position of an American politician, but it might be more useful to have Bryan in charge as a friendly neutral than run the risk of a more anti-soviet government coming to power. Additionally, many centrist Bolsheviks fear that opening relations would inevitably lead to the acceptance of American loans, which would grant a capitalist government undue leverage over our internal politics.

    []Request formal recognition and the resumption of normal trade relations: Martov and the left-mensheviks believe that Bryan's America would present an excellent partner; after all, they share with us an opposition to British Imperialism and a commitment to neutrality in the Great War. Achieving recognition will open the way to American trade, and then, perhaps, to American loans. Both of these will allow us to stabilize our new worker's government. Moreover, American recognition might have a cascading effect, allowing us to break decisively out of our international isolation as we make contact with more governments in the western hemisphere.

    []Seek Friendly Relations: As a middle path, we might simply send Bryan a note expressing a wish for friendly relations. While this will not put us on the path toward trade or recognition, it may improve American attitudes and open up more informal channels of communication.

    On the Matter of China (Pick 1)

    Duan Qurui has successfully unified China following his victory over a KMT government in the Southern Pacification War. Warlordism continues to be a problem in the inner provinces, but, with the assistance of American investment and arms, the Chinese government now looks stronger and more stable than at any point since the fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1911. It has thus far remained neutral in the Great War, though some believe that Sino-Japanese tensions could lead it to join the Central Powers.

    []Recognize and support the KMT as China's legitimate government: Kollantai, Martov and Kamenev all oppose working with the Chinese government, which they argue is a reactionary military autocracy that has no long-term interest in cooperation. Instead, they believe we should recognize the progressive-nationalist KMT government of Sun Yat-sen, which has fled into the mountains of Yunnan. Rykov and Lenin attack this proposal as "liberal idealism", and point out that Yat-sen appears to have little support in the rest of China.

    []Send a proposal for mutual recognition to Qurui: Recognizing Duan Qurui's government should allow us to resume trade once Trotsky marches further into Siberia. Chinese foreign currency is not particularly valuable, but we might be able to use it to trade with some of the states in South America. Because of its relative underdevelopment, China is probably one of the few markets that will accept our rather shoddy munitions and arms - this could be a quite lucrative trade.

    []Remain uncommitted for now: Some of the commissars point out that the situation in China is not as stable as it might appear. Tensions with Japan are being steadily ratcheted up, and it would be unwise to commit ourselves to close relations with any Chinese faction until our own state is more stable.

    On the Matter of the Moscow Circle (Pick 1)

    Finally, Sovnarkom turns to domestic matters. One of the first discussions concerns the left-communist circle in Moscow. There will surely be howls of protests from these dissident bolsheviks when news breaks of our decision to seek a more formal detente with Germany. Their leaders have been demoted to more pedestrian positions, but they still control some party media. As Sovnarkom begins deliberating on the matter, three competing options present themselves…

    []Throttle their newspapers: It should be simple enough to repress the publications of the left-communists. While this will likely incense them and their german allies, their lack of a power base in either the party or the unions will mean that they can't do much about it. Stalin, Rykov, and Kylenko all favor this option, though Martov, Kamenev, and Kollantai are worried about the precedent it would set for party democracy.

    []Send them to aid Central Siberia: With much of Central Siberia devastated by the conflict with the whites, we might be able to put the left-communists to some use in administering the region. This would give them their first taste of real power, but perhaps the stint in the Siberian cold would temper some of their more utopian ideals and force them to give up their propagandizing for the hard work of governance. If we ever have future use for their skills in propaganda and agitation, they could always be recalled. Surprisingly, Lenin and Martov join together to endorse this plan.

    []Let them speak: We could simply allow the left-communists to continue organizing. Right now, they are not a real threat to Lenin's dominant centrist faction, though they might find more support among workers if they are allowed to spread their ideas without restrictions. Keeping them together in Moscow, rather than the dispersed towns of Central Siberia, would also make it easier for them to coordinate opposition with the left-SR's in Central Russia, something which both Skobelev and Kamenev voice concerns about.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • [X]Ports in the Far North and Baltics
    [X]Demand the Ukrainian Heartland
    [X]Secure German non-interference in the caucuses
    [X]Rights to the Donbas Coal Fields
    [X]Oil Rights in Baku
    [X]Request formal recognition and the resumption of normal trade relations
    [X]Recognize and support the KMT as China's legitimate government
    [X]Send them to aid Central Siberia
     
    Curby said:
    []Send them to aid Central Siberia: With much of Central Siberia devastated by the conflict with the whites, we might be able to put the left-communists to some use in administering the region. This would give them their first taste of real power, but perhaps the stint in the Siberian cold would temper some of their more utopian ideals and force them to give up their propagandizing for the hard work of governance. If we ever have future use for their skills in propaganda and agitation, they could always be recalled. Surprisingly, Lenin and Martov join together to endorse this plan.
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    This seems tempting, honestly, but I'm worried how it'll be taken. I just want them to actually try and succeed.
     
    [X] Plan Bread and Peace
    -[X]Ports in the Far North and Baltics
    -[X]Demand the Ukrainian Heartland
    -[X]Reduce Reparations Payments
    -[X]Rights to the Donbas Coal Fields
    -[X]Oil Rights in Baku
    -[X]Seek Friendly Relations
    -[X]Remain uncommitted for now
    -[X]Let them speak

    [X][Agenda] First Soviet Census
    [X][Agenda] Agricultural Potential Survey

    Goal is to gain land and make peace with the Germans so we can redirect forces towards ending the Whites elsewhere. Also trying to avoid famine by reclaiming Ukraine and reducing reparations in exchange for coal and oil. Otherwise, trying to avoid starting new conflicts, though this will annoy the British some but hopefully they're too busy to spare much for the Whites.
     
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    Form for Adding Agenda Items
  • Informational
    • I am adding a new mechanic to this quest. Each week, readers may vote to add up to two items to the agenda of the next Sovnarkom meeting. Items will only be added if they have the support of at least 5 participants. Agenda items may be either specific proposals or simply requests to discuss a subject of importance to the Soviet government in order to settle upon a unified policy. Following the submission of an agenda item, the agenda committee will review it, issuing one of the following decisions:

    Unqualified Approval: The agenda item will appear in the discussion program of the next meeting of Sovnarkom.
    Qualified Approval: The agenda item will appear in the discussion program of the next meeting of Sovnarkom, on the condition that requested changes are made to the item.
    Request for Revision: The Agenda committee finds that the item should not appear on the discussion program without significant revision. Following resubmittal, the committee will issue a decision of either unqualified approval, qualified approval, or denial.
    Denial: The Agenda committee finds that the item is not worthy for discussion in Sovnarkom, and opts to decline it.

    Form for the Submission of an Agenda Item​

    Motion to add to Agenda: (1-2 sentence explanation of the item).
    Reason for Agenda Item: (Not less than a paragraph explaining why Sovnarkom should consider the item).
    Proposed Policy Directions: (If intended as a request for discussion, 2-3 possible policies to address the issue. If intended as a proposal, a short discussion of a single policy and its merits).

    ____

    To vote for someone's agenda item to be included in Sovnarkom, simply write

    [x] (Agenda Item)
     
  • Informational
    • Nervos Belli said:
    [X] Plan Bread and Peace
    -[X]Ports in the Far North and Baltics
    -[X]Demand the Ukrainian Heartland
    -[X]Reduce Reparations Payments
    -[X]Rights to the Donbas Coal Fields
    -[X]Oil Rights in Baku
    -[X]Seek Friendly Relations
    -[X]Remain uncommitted for now
    -[X]Send them to aid Central Siberia

    Goal is to gain land and make peace with the Germans so we can redirect forces towards ending the Whites elsewhere. Also trying to avoid famine by reclaiming Ukraine and reducing reparations in exchange for coal and oil. Otherwise, trying to avoid starting new conflicts, though this will annoy the British some but hopefully they're too busy to spare much for the Whites.
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    I don't think this is plan voting.
     
    Parzival said:
    I don't think this is plan voting.
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    A bit new to quests on here - you are free to submit and vote for each other's plans, but votes will be tallied for each item individually. So if 40% of people vote for Plan A, 30% for Plan B, and 30% for Plan C, some combination of the prescriptions of the above plans will be chosen based on the tally of each individual item, not Plan A. Hope that makes sense. Of course, if over 50% vote for Plan A, all of its votes for individual items will automatically be chosen!

    A fun idea might be to allow for more "plan voting" once the Soviet Bureaucracy sorts itself out a bit. Right now, I feel like the chaos of individual voting is more historically accurate!
     
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    Curby said:
    A bit new to quests on here - you are free to submit and vote for each other's plans, but votes will be tallied for each item individually. So if 40% of people vote for Plan A, 30% for Plan B, and 30% for Plan C, some combination of the prescriptions of the above plans will be chosen based on the tally of each individual item, not Plan A. Hope that makes sense. Of course, if over 50% vote for Plan A, all of its votes for individual items will automatically be chosen!

    A fun idea might be to allow for more "plan voting" once the Soviet Bureaucracy sorts itself out a bit. Right now, I feel like the chaos of individual voting is more historically accurate!
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    Would you like me to remove my plan for now? I'm happy to do so if you'd prefer individual voting.
     
    Nervos Belli said:
    Would you like me to remove my plan for now? I'm happy to do so if you'd prefer individual voting.
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    No need to remove the plan! People are free to propose and vote for plans, but the individual items will just be tallied individually unless a single plan receives 50%+ of the vote (in which case individual voting and plan voting converge).
     
    Gonna hold back on actually voting for a couple of days in case anyone has anything interesting to add to the agenda (and to brew over concessions to the Germans; leaning towards coal fields, especially if Britain has proxies in both Baku and Crimea).
     
    @Curby: Regarding the negotiation priorities, does the order of our top picks matter? In other words, would our diplomats be pushing for concessions on the first winning concession, than the second, than the third?
     
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