To Secure this Beachhead of Worker's Power: A Soviet Union Quest.

@Curby , I think the bigger problem is the ones where there's a variable number of demands. Like, most of the "plans" for the second group didn't give the Germans three things, but two, and disagreed on which two as far as I can tell?
 
Different parts of SovNarKom working at cross-purposes so that the whole ends up overpromising feels like the voting system producing the intended result, honestly.

And hey, silver linings, this way all the concessions we demanded will be empowered. Beeg Ukraine, smol reparations, machine reproduction licenses.
 
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Clearly this is a sign that we need a strong central executive figure that can take necessary actions without worrying about the fickle wants of politicians.
 
@Curby , I think the bigger problem is the ones where there's a variable number of demands. Like, most of the "plans" for the second group didn't give the Germans three things, but two, and disagreed on which two as far as I can tell?

Different parts of SovNarKom working at cross-purposes so that the whole ends up overpromising feels like the voting system producing the intended result, honestly.

And hey, silver linings, this way all the concessions we demanded will be empowered. Beeg Ukraine, smol reparations, machine reproduction licenses.

The process described here, where cartelization and the multiplication of different centers of power leads to a form of logrolling and overcommitment precisely mirrors a dynamic described by Jack Snyder in Myths of Empire: Domestic Politics and International Ambition. The quick centralization of power in the hands of the Bolsheviks and sovnarkom meant there was less of this IOTL, but I think that this would be a much more pervasive issue here.

As a result, I am going to keep the voting system as-is for now, with all the attendant chaos and confusion. Thank you to everyone who has worked to tally votes. In the future, though, I am happy to do this on my own! I am also going to introduce a new mechanic that will allow for participants to eventually choose to only use plan or individual voting.
 
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Yeah, this feels entirely in character for the sort of political era that we're in. Our delegate to the negotiation is going to be receiving a hectic array of competing and sometimes contradictory orders and has to make sense of them as best as possible.
 
Yeah, this feels entirely in character for the sort of political era that we're in. Our delegate to the negotiation is going to be receiving a hectic array of competing and sometimes contradictory orders and has to make sense of them as best as possible.

I mean, I dunno, in this case we're intentionally giving the Germans more to strangle world revolution forever. Like this might actually be the, "We've lost the Quest in the sense of actually spreading world revolution" vote.
 
I mean, I dunno, in this case we're intentionally giving the Germans more to strangle world revolution forever. Like this might actually be the, "We've lost the Quest in the sense of actually spreading world revolution" vote.
I'm sure we'll hear as much from Luxemburg, Myasnikov, &co.
 
I still say when it comes to it, Germany can't win the war anyway, we don't actually have to deliver what we promised once we get Ukraine and some of those capital goods
 
That's largely my opinion as well. It will take time Germany doesn't have for us to get that Coal and Oil to them.
 
That's largely my opinion as well. It will take time Germany doesn't have for us to get that Coal and Oil to them.

I don't think this is a realistic perspective to have based on the actual text we're working from. Germany is doing better than it was OTL.

You're bringing in the OTL perspective, where Germany was absolutely doomed by this point, into what is a different timeline.
 
I don't think this is a realistic perspective to have based on the actual text we're working from. Germany is doing better than it was OTL.

You're bringing in the OTL perspective, where Germany was absolutely doomed by this point, into what is a different timeline.

As long as the british blockade remains germany is doomed, at this moment in time starvation at home is likely causing as many deaths as the actual battles, if not more.
 
As long as the british blockade remains germany is doomed, at this moment in time starvation at home is likely causing as many deaths as the actual battles, if not more.

The German food situation is indeed growing worse, though it is not as bad as IOTL:

-The recent conquest of Romania has provided much needed foodstuffs.
-Italian war reparations mean more food for Austria.
-Austrian partial demobilization allows for some food to be exported to Germany.
-American neutrality means Dutch policy is more friendly to Germany, entailing more import of food through neutrals ports.
-The British blockade is less effective ITTL because some of the ships had to be diverted to convoy duty against the submarine campaign.
-Food distribution is also run a bit more effectively than IOTL.

Right now, there is widespread malnutrition, but not much starvation.
 
I mean, I dunno, in this case we're intentionally giving the Germans more to strangle world revolution forever. Like this might actually be the, "We've lost the Quest in the sense of actually spreading world revolution" vote.

Kind of irrelevant to my point. Half of the people's commissars (i.e. the thread voters) said to give concessions to Germany, so that's what our negotiator will do. That causing bad, even incorrect, policy is a bug of fractious political systems such as what we're working with, and I think it that was simulated very effectively just now.
 
The German food situation is indeed growing worse, though it is not as bad as IOTL:

-The recent conquest of Romania has provided much needed foodstuffs.
-Italian war reparations mean more food for Austria.
-Austrian partial demobilization allows for some food to be exported to Germany.
-American neutrality means Dutch policy is more friendly to Germany, entailing more import of food through neutrals ports.
-The British blockade is less effective ITTL because some of the ships had to be diverted to convoy duty against the submarine campaign.
-Food distribution is also run a bit more effectively than IOTL.

Right now, there is widespread malnutrition, but not much starvation.
This implies we may have actually done the world/German revolution a service by guaranteeing empowerment of all requests with three concessions (assuming empowered low-reparations means minimizing in-kind grain reparations payments). Can't eat coal or oil; can't even make fertilizer out of 'em.

Whereas, if we had failed to empower low-reparations, Germany would benefit from Russian and Ukrainian grain to an even greater extent than Romanian and American grain.
 
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I am now somewhat reminded of the Chinese politics quest a while ago which got thread demcent, albeit because votes would fail if the KMT wasn't united in votes.
 
Agenda Committee Rulings on "First Soviet Census" and "Agricultural Potential Survey"
[X] First Soviet Census
Motion to add to the agenda: With the civil war raging on, large numbers of people are either mobilized or internally displaced. This motion proposes organizing a census for the purposes of getting an accurate picture of current demographics.
Reason for agenda item: The population numbers have wide-ranging effects, impacting everything from production numbers, military recruitment, agricultural output to ethnic distribution and demand for social services, to even parliamentary representation. Bad and outdated information is likely to affect any policy by the people's government negatively, creating either delays or directives which does not match the local material situation.
Proposed Policy Directive: This motion proposes the organization of a census by the SovNavKom in an effort to get an accurate understanding of rapid demographic developments following the civil war. While the organization of this census will take a significant effort and be a financial burden, it is also necessary for sound governmental policy and administration. With an early organizing of this census, the availability of the data could allow the government to better govern and service it's population.

Issue: The Motion to add the First Soviet Census to the next Agenda of Sovnarkom
Jurisdiction: Internal Affairs
Verdict: Unqualified Approval
Comment: In light of the present disorder of the taxation and revenue system and the reconquest of Central Siberia, the Committee unanimously moves to include the next item in the agenda of Sovnarkom. Presently, the Department of Internal Affairs lacks the necessary officials and funds to conduct a census, and Commissar Alexei Rykov looks forward to discussing with Sovnarkom proposals to rectify these matters.

Matvey Skobelev, Commissar of Food and Agenda Committee Member
Alexei Rykov, Commissar of Internal Affairs and Agenda Committee Member
Alexandra Kollantai, Commissar of Social Welfare and Agenda Committee Member

Alexei Rykov, in his role as Commissar of Internal Affairs


[X] Agricultural Potential Survey
Motion to add to the agenda: Russian agriculture suffers from a number of serious problems. This motion proposes the organization of an independent body to objectively survey existing agricultural production and the issues hampering agricultural output.
Reason for the agenda item: Agricultural production is a key issue of this government, impacting both the economy, living standards and national security. Furthermore, Russian agriculture has a low rate of mechanization compared to other nations, meaning that the civil war impact agricultural production significantly, with the availability of basic food stuff being a key issue. An independent and objective study of agricultural production and it's challenges is thus self-evidently useful for ensuring sound economic and agricultural policy.
Proposed Policy Directive: This motion proposes the organization of an independent body of agricultural experts to study the actual agricultural production of regions controlled by us and the problems hampering production. This would mean collecting data on a number of topics from the crops grown, land ownership structure and land useage, the amount of food exported, logistical integration into the wider economy, soil quality, water availability and climate conditions. Based on this knowledge, the government would be able to improve food production more effectively, while avoiding dangerous errors like the overestimation of regional food production.

Issue: The Motion to add a Agricultural Potential Survey to the next Agenda of Sovnarkom
Jurisdiction: Agriculture
Verdict: Unqualified Approval
Comment: Strains on the agricultural system are certain to metastasize given recent changes in the diplomatic direction of the Soviet Republic, and a survey to quantify production levels and streamline the requisition process is an excellent idea. Presently, in addition to the commissariat of agriculture there exist a number of independent bodies with overlapping jurisdiction over agricultural matters. The Agenda Committee, as well as Commissar of Agriculture Vladimir Milyutin, proposes integrating these institutions in order to raise the funds and marshal the personnel necessary for such a survey.

Matvey Skobelev, Commissar of Food and Agenda Committee Member
Alexei Rykov, Commissar of Internal Affairs and Agenda Committee Member
Alexandra Kollantai, Commissar of Social Welfar and Agenda Committee Member

Vladimir Milyutin, Commissar of Agriculture
 
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Sovnarkom Meeting Sept. 16: "Little Sovnarkom", Borah's Message, Agricultural Survey & Census
Main Conclusions of the September 9th Sovnarkom Meeting
Notes Taken by Vladimir Bonch-Bruyevich

Sovnarkom met in one of its longest sessions to date and discussed the priorities for the upcoming negotiations with Germany. A welter of competing demands were aired, though there were some areas of broad consensus. All concurred that reparation payments must be kept to a minimum and western ukraine returned to Soviet authorities. There was some disagreement on the amount of concessions that should be offered to Germany; eventually, it was decided to offer them wide-ranging resource rights and the Crimean peninsula, while keeping in mind that the fulfillment of the economic promises could be summarily retracted if we found it to be in our interest.

On the matter of America, it was agreed to reach out for formal recognition; a coalition of previously skeptical bolsheviks around Rykov and Kylenko were convinced that recognition did not necessarily entail taking loans.

The matter of China was debated for some time. While a large majority favored taking a non-committal stance, Kollantai and Kamenev joined together to castigate the majority decision, arguing that abandoning the KMT would create a precedent of Soviet weakness.

The question of the left-communists occasioned a fierce, but brief debate. After Lenin and Martov suggested that they be given positions in Central Siberia, the remainder of the Bolsheviks quickly coalesced behind Victor Nogin, who contended that Lenin's policy would allow them to cultivate an independent power base, especially given Trotsky's presence in the area. The Mensheviks Riazanov and Karakhan also voiced skepticism, though from a different angle: they believed that sending them to Siberia would constitute a form of exile and set a poor precedent for our treatment of political dissidents.


The State of the Revolution

Current Composition of Sovnarkom
PositionOfficeholderParty
ChairmanVladmir LeninBolshevik
Head of Council-Administration.Vladimir Bonch-BruyevichBolhevik
Commissariat of Foreign Affairs.Adolph JoffeSocial-Democratic
People's Commissariat for AgricultureVladimir MilyutinBolshevik
People's Commissar of Military AffairsJoseph StalinBolshevik
People's Commissar of Naval AffairsPavel DybenkoBolshevik
People's Commissariat for LabourJulius MartovSocial-Democratic
People's Commissariat for Trade and IndustryDavid RiazanovSocial-Democratic
People's Commissariat for EducationAnatoly LunacharskyBolshevik
People's Commissariat for FoodMatvey SkobelevSocial-Democratic
People's Commissariat for Internal AffairsAlexei RykovBolshevik
People's Commissariat for JusticeNikolai KylenkoBolshevik
People's Commissariat for Nationalities.Sergo OrdzhonikidzeBolshevik
People's Commissariat for Posts and TelegraphsLev KamenevBolshevik
People's Commissariat for RailwaysVictor NoginBolshevik
People's Commissariat for FinanceYuri LurinSocial-Democratic
People's Commissariat for Social WelfareAlexandra KollantaiBolshevik
People's Commissar for Local Self GovernmentLev KarakhanSocial-Democratic

Changes

A new political mechanic has been introduced!

Additional Austrian troops have been demobilized, bringing down their eastern army strength from 905 to 775.

As a result of our diplomacy, relations with America have improved from mediocre (40) to ambivalent (50).

According to intelligence reports, the Germans have begun an offensive on the southern bank of the Somme. Our analysts believe that they hope to drive to the coast and encircle the Franco-British force in Flanders!

Foreign Policy

Britain is currently led by Bonar Law's Tories, which have the ideology of British Conservatism. Relations are…Poor (25/100)

Germany is currently led by Ludendorff's military dictatorship, which has the ideology of Proto-Fascism. Relations are…Mediocre (40/100)

America is currently led by William Jennings Bryan, governing in coalition with progressive republicans and northern democrats. These have an ideology ranging from technocratic social liberalism to populist industrial democracy. Relations are currently Ambivalent (50/100).

Relations with the Ukrainian Soviet Republic are Good (65/100)
The Ukrainian Soviet Republic's level of autonomy is High (75/100).

Tensions on the western frontier are pervasive (59/100, relations with Germany -3 per turn)

Political

The government's support among the Urban Working Class is…Robust (75/100)
The government's support among the Urban Middle Class is…Middling (50/100)
The government's support among the Russian Peasantry is Weak (30/100)

The standard of living for the Urban Working Class is…Impoverished (25/100)
The standard of living among the Urban Middle Class is…Insecure (35/100).
The standard of living for the peasantry is…Impoverished (20/100)

The power of the Bolsheviks is predominant (50/100)
Among the Urban Working Class, the Bolsheviks are…Beloved (90/100)
Among the Peasantry, the Bolsheviks are…Mistrusted (35/100)

Right now, the Bolsheviks are dominated by the Leninist Center, which holds 75/100 of the party's political capital, ahead of Kamenev's right-bolsheviks (15/100) and the left-communists (10/100).
The power of the Mensheviks is influential (15/100)

Among the Urban Working Class, the Mensheviks are…Trusted (65/100)
Among the Peasantry, the Mensheviks are…Mistrusted (35/100)
Right now, the Left-SR's are acclaimed (80/100) by the peasantry, their power is significant (10/100) and they are mistrustful (35/100) of the present government!

The balance of power between Sovnarkom and the executive committee of Soviets is neutral (50/100) (Note: If this number exceeds 75/100, leading to Sovnarkom dominance, plan voting will be mandated. If it goes below 25/100, leading to Executive Committee Dominance, plan voting will be prohibited.)

Military

The size of the Red Army is mediocre (40/100)
The morale of the Red Army is solid (70/100)
The quality, supply, technological sophistication and training of the Red army is pathetic (15/100)
…Leading to an Army strength (size + morale/quality times .5) of Weak (787.5/5000)

Right now, the Red Army keeps around 70% of its forces in the west, giving us a western frontier strength of 551
The size of the German Army is large (80/100)
The morale of the German Army is waning (35/100)
The quality, supply, technological sophistication and training of the German Army is robust (70/100)
…Leading to an Army Strength of (4025/5000) Very Strong

Right now, Germany keeps around 20% of its forces in the east, giving them a eastern frontier strength of 805, to which should be added the Austrian Eastern Army Strength of 775, the Western Ukrainian army strength of 150, and the Finnish Army strength of 60, giving a total of 1780.
Right now, the likely result of a confrontation with Germany would be Abysmal (1/100) (Formula: German Army Strength - Soviet Army Strength/10.)


Sovnarkom Meeting on September 16th, 1918

Several people's commissars - Martov, Kamenev, Joffe - are missing from the present Sovnarkom meeting. We have received word that they arrived one day ago in Riga, where they are meeting with a delegation led by the German statesman Gustav Stresemann. Little has been exchanged thus far beyond the customary pleasantries. One of the German diplomats made the perhaps unadvisable remark that the Russian Soviet Republic and the German Empire bear a kind of kinship - we are both, he reportedly mused, revolutionary states attempting to remake the Anglo-French liberal order. Naturally, this hamhanded attempt at conviviality quickly became something of a joke in the central offices of the Bolshevik Party, though now it seems that the information has somehow slipped out to a much broader public, imperiling our promise to keep the negotiations confidential. The Germans do not know of this yet, but we will eventually have to decide whether to inform them of this slip-up, thus admitting to our own incompetence, or stay silent, perhaps leading our ill-weather adversaries to conclude that this was a malicious maneuver on our part.

The absence of several social democrats has lent a decidedly more Bolshevik cast to the present gathering, offering an opportunity to push through some legislative priorities. First, however, administrative matters must be attended to…


On The Matter of the "Little Sovnarkom"

The previous coalition government used a three-man committee known as the "Little Sovnarkom" to deal with second-order business that could not be resolved by individual commissariats. It became especially powerful in financial matters, and it frequently determined the amount of credit granted to different state agencies. The current government has not appointed new members to this body, slowing down the implementation of Sovnarkom policy.

All the commissars agree that it must be reconvened, though there are different proposals about the form it should take...

[]Maintain the status quo: Milyutin and Rykov served, along with a single left-SR, on the previous body, so it is unsurprising that they advocate for it to return in the same form. In this scenario, it is likely that they will be elected to the new body along with one Menshevik. This option would preserve continuity of institutions and personnel, but some believe that more should be done to empower the executive committee of soviets. (Note: This will shift the balance of power moderately toward Sovnarkom!)

[]Leninist Reform Plan: Lenin proposes that the chairman of the Central Executive Committee be given a permanent seat on Little Sovnarkom and observer status in Sovnarkom proper, and its number of members raised from 3 to 4. Two of the remaining three members would be decided by Sovnarkom, and the other appointed by the Chairman of the Central Executive Committee. Currently, it is Yakov Sverdlov who holds this position, one of the most astute and talented of Bolshevik politicians and administrators. Some People's commissars worry that giving Sverdlov such a position would unduly enhance his already considerable power - after all, in addition to his role as head of the executive committee, he is also the de facto leader of the Bolshevik Party apparatus. Thus far, he has remained loyal to Lenin, but he has also penned a series of left-wing critiques of Sovnarkom's economic policies, and some believe he has sympathies for Bukharin and the left-communists. (Note: This will shift the balance of power slightly toward the Executive Committee!)

[]Menshevik Reform Plan: The Mensheviks Lev Karakhan and Yuri Lurin propose an alternate restructuring of Little Sovnarkom. They plan to double the size of the body, and want half its members to be appointed by the executive committee. This would likely lead to greater executive committee participation in sovnarkom governance. Also, like Lenin's proposal, it would give Sverdlov or a close ally of his a seat on the reformed committee. After outlining this idea, a number of commissars criticize both the Menshevik and Leninist reform plans, arguing that involving the executive committee in administrative, sovnarkom business will give it substantive veto power over too many policies and slow down governance. (Note: This will shift the balance of power considerably toward the Executive Committee!)


On the Matter of Borah's Message

Following the discussion of administrative matters, Sovnarkom turns to a recent message received from the American Secretary of State, William Borah. In a diplomatic cable, Borah expressed that President Bryan is eager to establish diplomatic relations, but warns us that there is some concern over the "state of lawlessness and anarchy in the Russian lands, and reports of outrages against the members of the Orthodox Church". He proposes a private, confidential meeting in San Francisco with himself and the governor of California, Hiram Johnson; he assures us that this man, who belongs to the rival Republican party, is in fact a trusted confidante of Bryan. All the people's commissars agree that we should continue in our pursuit of diplomatic recognition, but there are some tactical differences...

[]Agree to the meeting, and provide assurances of goodwill: The Mensheviks seem positively enthused about this message, and use the occasion to point out that the state of anarchy and lawlessness among the Russian peasantry is indeed quite concerning, as are the reports of violence against peaceable members of the Orthodox church. While it would be unadvisable to disclaim that such outrages are being perpetrated, the Mensheviks argue that it in our interest to assure the Americans that our government is not associated with them. Several Bolsheviks pointedly respond that it would be impossible to determine if such acts are all being committed by "independent actors", and in any event, it is not the task of a capitalist government to dictate domestic policy to our worker's state.

[]Agree to the meeting, but make no other comment: Stalin, Rykov, and Ordzhonikidze propose that we should simply accept the invitation, and wait to see which conditions America intends to put on recognition and trade. Regardless of any disagreements the present people's commissars might have on domestic policy, they argue that there is little reason to show too much eagerness toward the Americans, who might take this as a signal of weakness.

[]Place our own conditions on the meeting: We have recently come across several documents indicating that America may have been involved in the funding of Indian dissidents. Nikolai Kylenko, a Bolshevik hardliner, thinks we should gently remind the Americans that we could cause quite a diplomatic scandal for them, as we already have for the British through the release of confidential diplomatic cables detailing their imperialist war aims in the Turkish theater. This will convince them to forego their foolish attempt to "condition" our recognition on changes in domestic policy. Kylenko's suggestion does spook the Mensheviks, Kamenev, and some centrist Bolsheviks, who worry that employing such threats so early in negotiations might not be the most prudent decision…


On the Matter of the Soviet Agricultural Potential Survey

Two recent proposals arrive from the commissariats. One of these, an agricultural potential survey, raises jurisdictional, political, and fiscal issues. The motion proposes that we collect comprehensive agricultural data on a range of topics: crops grown, land ownership structures, levels of land usage, food export/consumption ratios, soil quality, water availability, climate conditions, and degrees of logistical integration into the broader soviet economy. While this information would undoubtedly be a boon for the government, Vladimir Milyutin points out that it would take quite some time to gather, especially given the paltry state of the agricultural ministry and the tenuous nature of our control over the hinterlands of Central Russia. There is also a jurisdictional issue; the "peasant department" of the Central Executive Committee is currently run by the left-SR Maria Spiridinova. She was placed there largely because she condemned the decision of her left-SR colleagues to leave Sovnarkom, and she is reportedly still quite popular among the peasantry. As Sovnarkom begins to debate the issue, a number of proposals begin to crystallize…

[]A restrained, centralized survey: Milyutin complains that the proposed survey is far too ambitious, and argues for a much more restricted one that focuses primarily on crop types, logistical matters, and typical rates of surplus production. This would permit us, he argues, to much more easily coordinate grain requisitions, which will allow a more efficient exploitation of grain produce. To accomplish this, he argues that Spiridinova's peasant department should be merged into his agricultural commission, something which will likely anger many left-sr's. (Note: This will moderately move the balance of power in the direction of Sovnarkom, and will significantly decrease the left-sr's opinion of the government)

[]Let's keep what friends we have: Hesitant to alienate Spiridonova, Lenin suggests moving forward with a similar plan, but having Milyutin work in consultation with Spiridonova. Stalin, Rykov, and Milyutin himself all point out that this is likely to lead to bureaucratic imbroglios and confusion, but it might still be better than the alternatives.

[]The Narodnik Knows the Peasants Best: Maria Spiridonova has remained loyal to our government and has spent years working tirelessly on behalf of the Russian peasant. The negotiations with Germany might very well alienate more of her left-SR comrades; let's try to keep this one on our side. Milyutin will not be happy with it, but placing the commissariat of agriculture in the hands of someone with the trust and adoration of the peasants would probably lead to a more effective survey. Of course, subordinating a commissariat to an executive committee department would set a precedent in favor of the latter. Additionally, Spiridinova is likely to want a longer, more detailed survey: we'll have to either pay to expand her personnel or content ourselves with the survey taking much longer…(Note: This will moderately move the balance of power in the direction of the Executive Committee, and significantly improve the left-SR's opinion of the government. It will also increase the power of the left-sr's.)

[]Our Agriculture is Perfectly Adequate: Rykov points out that there is at present no reports of famine, and that anyways, such a survey should probably not be commenced until all of the lands in the east have been reconquered. Besides, there is a much more pressing proposal for a census, which could use whatever funds were to be allocated to the agricultural survey. One final thought: isn't it more important to survey humans than it is soil characteristics?


On the Matter of the Soviet Census

Sovnarkom is tired…or at least, its various members are. One can often feel it in the air - and see it, too. Kylenko gazes contemplatively at the baroque ceilings, Stalin taps his foot erratically, and Lenin, like an impetuous schoolteacher, speaks with an added sharpness, as if to call his distracted pupils to order. But it is not of too much use; the mundane work of Sovnarkom can only rarely reach the dizzying intellectual heights of Marx and Engels, but this is the reality of running the worker's state. There is one additional matter of business to discuss, the census, and Rykov perks up at its mention: this is a chance to secure funding for his department.

[]Rykov's Plan: The Commissar of Internal Affairs argues that a census is very much necessary, that it impacts everything from production numbers, military recruitment, agricultural output to ethnic distribution and demand for social services (at this point, Skobelev and Kollantai glance at Rykok - he is citing from the motion as if the words were his own, but no matter...). He explains that his department presently does not have the personnel required for such a task, but he notes that there are many trained "bourgeois specialists" affiliated with the old, tsarist regime who could assist with a census. Perhaps if he was provided funding to hire them without facing charges of "right-wing deviation", he could put together a national census.

[]Proletarians, not Bourgeois Specialists: Alexandra Kollantai agrees that we should conduct a census, but wants to use party activists rather than professional bureaucrats to carry it out. This is an excellent project for youth and labor organizations; after all, going house-to-house, collecting information - this doesn't sound so different from running a political campaign, something which the Bolsheviks are very well-versed in. Some worry that farming out such matters-of-state to the party apparatus might set an unhealthy precedent, but Lenin, who enthusiastically supports this plan, reasons that concentrating power in the professional bureaucracies would be far more deleterious to the building of a worker's state than an expansion of the party's role. This argument appears to convince several commissars - Ordzhonikidze and Lunacharsky both speak up in its defense, pointing out that the party does have tens of thousands of enthusiastic activists who would gladly do such work.

[]We Already have a Census: Milyutin points out that the Tsarist regime already conducted a census back in 1897; this was some time ago, but the basic numbers still seem fairly accurate for much of Central Russia, save a few million causalties from the Great War. Besides, trying to pay for both a census and the very much needed agricultural survey would strain the government's finances, which are currently in a parlous state. The Menshevik Finance Commissar Yuri Lurin, a normally quiet presence at Sovnarkom meetings, speaks up to second this argument, though he does note that a new census will likely pay for itself in the long run.
 
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[X] Plan: Common Lenin W
-[X]Leninist Reform Plan: Lenin proposes that the chairman of the Central Executive Committee be given a permanent seat on Little Sovnarkom and observer status in Sovnarkom proper, and its number of members raised from 3 to 4. Two of the remaining three members would be decided by Sovnarkom, and the other appointed by the Chairman of the Central Executive Committee. Currently, it is Yakov Sverdlov who holds this position, one of the most astute and talented of Bolshevik politicians and administrators. Some People's commissars worry that giving Sverdlov such a position would unduly enhance his already considerable power - after all, in addition to his role as head of the executive committee, he is also the de facto leader of the Bolshevik Party apparatus. Thus far, he has remained loyal to Lenin, but he has also penned a series of left-wing critiques of Sovnarkom's economic policies, and some believe he has sympathies for Bukharin and the left-communists. (Note: This will shift the balance of power slightly toward the Executive Committee!)
-[X]Agree to the meeting, but make no other comment: Stalin, Rykov, and Ordzhonikidze propose that we should simply accept the invitation, and wait to see which conditions America intends to put on recognition and trade. Regardless of any disagreements the present people's commissars might have on domestic policy, they argue that there is little reason to show too much eagerness toward the Americans, who might take this as a signal of weakness.
-[X]Let's keep what friends we have: Hesitant to alienate Spiridonova, Lenin suggests moving forward with a similar plan, but having Milyutin work in consultation with Spiridonova. Stalin, Rykov, and Milyutin himself all point out that this is likely to lead to bureaucratic imbroglios and confusion, but it might still be better than the alternatives.
-[X]Proletarians, not Bourgeois Specialists: Alexandra Kollantai agrees that we should conduct a census, but wants to use party activists rather than professional bureaucrats to carry it out. This is an excellent project for youth and labor organizations; after all, going house-to-house, collecting information - this doesn't sound so different from running a political campaign, something which the Bolsheviks are very well-versed in. Some worry that farming out such matters-of-state to the party apparatus might set an unhealthy precedent, but Lenin, who enthusiastically supports this plan, reasons that concentrating power in the professional bureaucracies would be far more deleterious to the building of a worker's state than an expansion of the party's role. This argument appears to convince several commissars - Ordzhonikidze and Lunacharsky both speak up in its defense, pointing out that the party does have tens of thousands of enthusiastic activists who would gladly do such work.


Made a plan of what I thought were all the best options, then realized it's also what Lenin proposed or supported in everything but America (where he said nothing) so went with the plan name from that.

Big Sverdlov fan, don't want to give the Left-SR's too much strength (plus it would strengthen the executive committee too much), love Kollontai's idea, and the centrist option for America seems best
 
[X]Leninist Reform Plan
[X]Agree to the meeting, but make no other comment
[X]Our Agriculture is Perfectly Adequate
[X]Rykov's Plan

I think a slightly larger Executive should be fine, and we shouldn't promise the Americans anything before we meet them, especially something we probably can't promise them. As to the two surveys, I do think it makes sense to focus on one at a time with limited resources, and of the two the regular census will be more valuable and also easier to do in our current circumstances, as most of the population is in the West. And for the census, I'd rather not give state duties over to party structures, and I don't trust the Bolshevik volunteers to accurately record information on non-Bolshevik coalition members.
 
[X] Plan: Common Lenin W
-[X]Leninist Reform Plan: Lenin proposes that the chairman of the Central Executive Committee be given a permanent seat on Little Sovnarkom and observer status in Sovnarkom proper, and its number of members raised from 3 to 4. Two of the remaining three members would be decided by Sovnarkom, and the other appointed by the Chairman of the Central Executive Committee. Currently, it is Yakov Sverdlov who holds this position, one of the most astute and talented of Bolshevik politicians and administrators. Some People's commissars worry that giving Sverdlov such a position would unduly enhance his already considerable power - after all, in addition to his role as head of the executive committee, he is also the de facto leader of the Bolshevik Party apparatus. Thus far, he has remained loyal to Lenin, but he has also penned a series of left-wing critiques of Sovnarkom's economic policies, and some believe he has sympathies for Bukharin and the left-communists. (Note: This will shift the balance of power slightly toward the Executive Committee!)
-[X]Agree to the meeting, but make no other comment: Stalin, Rykov, and Ordzhonikidze propose that we should simply accept the invitation, and wait to see which conditions America intends to put on recognition and trade. Regardless of any disagreements the present people's commissars might have on domestic policy, they argue that there is little reason to show too much eagerness toward the Americans, who might take this as a signal of weakness.
-[X]Let's keep what friends we have: Hesitant to alienate Spiridonova, Lenin suggests moving forward with a similar plan, but having Milyutin work in consultation with Spiridonova. Stalin, Rykov, and Milyutin himself all point out that this is likely to lead to bureaucratic imbroglios and confusion, but it might still be better than the alternatives.
-[X]Proletarians, not Bourgeois Specialists: Alexandra Kollantai agrees that we should conduct a census, but wants to use party activists rather than professional bureaucrats to carry it out. This is an excellent project for youth and labor organizations; after all, going house-to-house, collecting information - this doesn't sound so different from running a political campaign, something which the Bolsheviks are very well-versed in. Some worry that farming out such matters-of-state to the party apparatus might set an unhealthy precedent, but Lenin, who enthusiastically supports this plan, reasons that concentrating power in the professional bureaucracies would be far more deleterious to the building of a worker's state than an expansion of the party's role. This argument appears to convince several commissars - Ordzhonikidze and Lunacharsky both speak up in its defense, pointing out that the party does have tens of thousands of enthusiastic activists who would gladly do such work.
 
Before this cscades into another pile of conflicting vote formats, @Ultrackius can I ask you to have your plan formatted like so instead? This extends to other votes too so that SV's vote tally can count them properly.

[] Plan: Common Lenin W
-[]Leninist Reform Plan
-[]Agree to the meeting, but make no other comment
-[]Let's keep what friends we have
-[]Proletarians, not Bourgeois Specialists
 
[X] Plan: Soviet Centralist
-[X]Leninist Reform Plan: Lenin proposes that the chairman of the Central Executive Committee be given a permanent seat on Little Sovnarkom and observer status in Sovnarkom proper, and its number of members raised from 3 to 4. Two of the remaining three members would be decided by Sovnarkom, and the other appointed by the Chairman of the Central Executive Committee. Currently, it is Yakov Sverdlov who holds this position, one of the most astute and talented of Bolshevik politicians and administrators. Some People's commissars worry that giving Sverdlov such a position would unduly enhance his already considerable power - after all, in addition to his role as head of the executive committee, he is also the de facto leader of the Bolshevik Party apparatus. Thus far, he has remained loyal to Lenin, but he has also penned a series of left-wing critiques of Sovnarkom's economic policies, and some believe he has sympathies for Bukharin and the left-communists. (Note: This will shift the balance of power slightly toward the Executive Committee!)
-[X]Agree to the meeting, but make no other comment: Stalin, Rykov, and Ordzhonikidze propose that we should simply accept the invitation, and wait to see which conditions America intends to put on recognition and trade. Regardless of any disagreements the present people's commissars might have on domestic policy, they argue that there is little reason to show too much eagerness toward the Americans, who might take this as a signal of weakness.
-[X]The Narodnik Knows the Peasants Best: Maria Spiridonova has remained loyal to our government and has spent years working tirelessly on behalf of the Russian peasant. The negotiations with Germany might very well alienate more of her left-SR comrades; let's try to keep this one on our side. Milyutin will not be happy with it, but placing the commissariat of agriculture in the hands of someone with the trust and adoration of the peasants would probably lead to a more effective survey. Of course, subordinating a commissariat to an executive committee department would set a precedent in favor of the latter. Additionally, Spiridinova is likely to want a longer, more detailed survey: we'll have to either pay to expand her personnel or content ourselves with the survey taking much longer…(Note: This will moderately move the balance of power in the direction of the Executive Committee, and significantly improve the left-SR's opinion of the government. It will also increase the power of the left-sr's.)
-[X]Rykov's Plan: The Commissar of Internal Affairs argues that a census is very much necessary, that it impacts everything from production numbers, military recruitment, agricultural output to ethnic distribution and demand for social services (at this point, Skobelev and Kollantai glance at Rykok - he is citing from the motion as if the words were his own, but no matter...). He explains that his department presently does not have the personnel required for such a task, but he notes that there are many trained "bourgeois specialists" affiliated with the old, tsarist regime who could assist with a census. Perhaps if he was provided funding to hire them without facing charges of "right-wing deviation", he could put together a national census.

Not good with names but that's the only thing I can think of but my plan is similar to "Common Lenin W" but changed the last two with Spiridonova's and Rykov's plan as I think it's a better alternative to alinating Spiridonova and Kollantai's plan.
 
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