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Breaker of Chains (30k Angron Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] Slay Tchar
I'm voting for this because I really want to see what Lorgar will do and in the end, even with bindings, Tchar is a threat to people Angron is responsible for.
 
The Bird said:
I mean, I voted for it not because Angron is a paragon, but because it seems like a good chance for character development and evolution *away* from the guy who butchered an entire world.
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Tchar, the semi-autonomous entity that just tried playing stupid games with us and just tap-danced over Angron's issues is...probably a bad place to start with that character development though, especially when we have Lorgar's mission statement on hand as the alternative.
 
[X] Free Tchar
-[x] "This isn't the god we want to create, brother."

(To clarify, this is the free vote but also 100% ride or die on Lorgar's heresy because that shit is wild)


Break all the chains.

Also, I really want to see if we can't somehow win at heresy by being nice instead of grimdarking.
 
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Rachel_wulf said:
The best argument I still have is that it would be a Bad Precedent to set for the first act in the name of their New God to be murdering a Prisoner, however the only Alternative I have is not truly Feasible and Tchar is, inherently, too much of a Monster to simply set free. He may be an Honest monster, but still a Monster.

So in the end, Killing him is the only option now, IMO.
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That makes sense, It's definitely a bad precedent. I want to free him too, but I just don't want to unleash this monster on everyone else, if we could somehow stop him acting in that way without binding him to eternal slavery then that'd be great. Maybe banish him to the warp forever & stop him from egging on other daemon and having to follow the spirit of the deal instead of trying to find loopholes, maybe it's too hopeful of me.
 
[X] Slay Tchar

I don't think there's been signs of some AU version of Chaos. They've been open handed with Angron because they need him for now but it's the 'generosity' of a drug dealer's first taste. Severing this relationship permanently isn't the worst thing even if there are character arguments for Freeing out of mercy.
 
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong or if I've missed a few updates, but I was the impression that Angron did, yes, annihilate Nuceria and something like 9/10s of its population but that his actions since were not in fact redoing the Death of Nuceria over and over again?

That he and his Legion were in fact noteworthy for NOT engaging in the mass murder of populations (especially psyker, xenia, and mutant populations) that are standard practice for say...the Space Wolves and Death Guard.

That Angron and his Legion in fact value martial honor and triumph over worthy foes, that Angron's beef with the Emperor is because he has ethical and moral objections to the use of overwhelming force employed on the helpless and innocent, that the whole point of putting Konrad Curze down like a mad dog was in part because he was gleefully slaughtering the helpless and the innocent and had no intention of stopping, was trying to come up with ways to slaughter the helpless and innocent quicker without sacrificing the ever important drawn out agony and terror?

I mean if I missed the update where Angron cheerfully unleashed the Chainbreakers on the Geriatric Republic of the Assisted Living Nebula and the Pacifist Kingdom of Gandi VI, personally biting off the heads of a hundred thoudand children and beaming with pride as the Emperor named him King Shithead of Shitty Person Mountain fair enough, that's on me, but I'm pretty sure I would have remembered that.
 
[X] Free Tchar
-[X] Angron came to free Ghreer, and Ghreer's freedom is offered to him now. Angron is a warrior, not a murderer. Lorgar wants a god of truth and light and boundless love, and such a god is not made by executing prisoners in their shackles.
 
Wade Garrett said:
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong or if I've missed a few updates, but I was the impression that Angron did, yes, annihilate Nuceria and something like 9/10s of its population but that his actions since were not in fact redoing the Death of Nuceria over and over again?

That he and his Legion were in fact noteworthy for NOT engaging in the mass murder of populations (especially psyker, xenia, and mutant populations) that are standard practice for say...the Space Wolves and Death Guard.

That Angron and his Legion in fact value martial honor and triumph over worthy foes, that Angron's beef with the Emperor is because he has ethical and moral objections to the use of overwhelming force employed on the helpless and innocent, that the whole point of putting Konrad Curze down like a mad dog was in part because he was gleefully slaughtering the helpless and the innocent and had no intention of stopping, was trying to come up with ways to slaughter the helpless and innocent quicker without sacrificing the ever important drawn out agony and terror?

I mean if I missed the update where Angron cheerfully unleashed the Chainbreakers on the Geriatric Republic of the Assisted Living Nebula and the Pacifist Kingdom of Gandi VI, personally biting off the heads of a hundred thoudand children and beaming with pride as the Emperor named him King Shithead of Shitty Person Mountain fair enough, that's on me, but I'm pretty sure I would have remembered that.
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A thought occurs to me but, it was mentioned previously that Lorgar HAS been preparing this for a long time, perhaps since Monarchia, potentially even before, with old preparations turned to a new purpose. And, returning to my earlier thoughts of the story this starts, I've thought of another way to see this. Executing the Daemon would not be the First act of this new God, Capturing it was.

Capturing it as you would any Criminal, Given a Trial, and Summarily executed for their crimes. If we look at it this way, you could spin this into an Act of a God of Equality. All creatures, even the Previously Immortal spirits of the Warp, shall be judged by the same laws, and Granted the appropriate punishments. From this perspective, this is not a Callous murder of a Helpless Enemy, but the Merciful Execution of a Criminal beyond redemption.

But I think I might also be rambling, and possibly thinking too deeply on this.

Efit: I couldn't stop thinking because this train of though has it's hooks in me now but, If we are able to make Tchar's death a Duel to the Death, it could Strengthen this perspective.

I'm about to get into really pedantic, Religious territory but fuck it I've been there this whole time without embracing it, haven't I?

So setting this up as an Execution via a Duel to the Death means that, should all else fail, should all signs point to your Guilt, all speech cry for your Damnation, but you are Truly Redeemable, then your Will to fight will show it. And if, Before the final blow is struck you are found Redeemable, Begging Guidance back onto the path, Instead of a Killing blow it can be a Hand offered to pick you back up out of the dirt, to PROVE worthy of the mercy you have been shown, and to never Stray again.

Obviously we cannot set that sort of Precedent in a single fight but, with effort that would form a VERY Mighty God to rally behind, wouldn't it?
 
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[X] Slay Tchar

There's a lot of people talking about moral implications and character and shit. I don't care about that.

Lorgar has killed a daemon and we haven't. Lorgar.

We can't let Lorgar one up us like this, there's nothing he's killed that we can't.
 
Imrix said:
Yes, honestly. It's not a perfect solution, but it is a starting point.

Like, keep in mind here, at the end of the day Tchar is one daemon. A greater daemon, yes, but one daemon. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the infinitude of Chaos - spare Tchar or kill them, as far as consequences for the rest of the galaxy is concerned I don't think that actually matters.

But I think it does matter a lot for who Angron is, in his heart of hearts, and who Lorgar's god will be.

I'm not. Angron is a killer, he's slaughtered thousands, in standup fights and those who were helpless before him (he's a primarch; most people are helpless before him), with his own hands and by his order. But that does not mean he's a murderer, necessarily.

There is a distinction to be made between killing someone as part of an open conflict, even by underhanded means such as from afar or by ambush (many warrior traditions might even regard a skillful ambush as quite an honourable affair!), and killing a prisoner on their knees before you in chains. That difference may not matter to you, but it matters to a lot of people, myself included. The latter can only be called an execution. There's call for executions, sometimes. Is there call for it here, when Tchar is already offering us what we came for? And what crimes, exactly, would we be executing Tchar for?
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In character, Lorgar thinks this is the best way, and we trust our brother. It's that simple.

Out of character...

We began the Quest by ordering our Legion to murder everyone on Nuceria. Everyone. Toddlers, babies...Angron butchered them all. He feels no regret for this decision.

That's who Angron is, in his heart of hearts. It's not all of him. He's the person who let aliens escape and shielded mutants and offered mercy to the outcast and the despised. But he's also the person who ordered the ceramite boot of his Legion to crush the head of every last toddler and felt the satisfaction of a promise kept and a job well done.

The distinctions of warriors are the lies of cowards who refuse to acknowledge the truth of what they are. As you point out, an ordinary human soldier might as well be in chains for all the chance he has against Angron. The Primarch has slain thousands of those soldiers with his own axe, butchering them for the dreadful sin of resisting the High Rider's yoke. And while our Legion is not the Night Lords, civilians die when we bring worlds to compliance. The old man caught in a burning house, or the teenager trapped in a crossfire. How many innocent lives have we taken in the last century?

Tchar is not innocent. He had a better chance than the toddlers of Nuceria or the civilians caught in the gears of the Great Crusade. He made a mistake, and now he pays for it. Just as we will if the Emperor discovers our schemes before we are ready to act. The heights are paved with daggers, and those who slip should not expect a mercy they would not grant.

Crimes? Why would the mighty speak of law? Tchar was useful to us alive, but our brother thinks he would be more useful dead. Lorgar offers us the sword, and he has given us many reasons to trust his judgement. Tchar was an asset, but assets exist to be expended. He would sacrifice us for his own ends- he has made no secret of that- so we should we hesitate to do the same?

Our hands drip with the blood of billions. Shall we stand upon a mountain of infant skulls and claim that we are not a murderer?
 
[X] Slay Tchar

Perhaps this will go poorly in the long-term, but the decision was made to take up Logar's solution to the problem, and I think it Tchar demonstrated through his immediate decision to demand that Angron release him how much of an "ally" the two of them are. Besides Logar is expecting to get answers about the path he seeks to walk through the slaying of Tchar, and I'm not seeing a good reason to deny him those answers.
 
dptullos said:
In character, Lorgar thinks this is the best way, and we trust our brother. It's that simple.

Out of character...

We began the Quest by ordering our Legion to murder everyone on Nuceria. Everyone. Toddlers, babies...Angron butchered them all. He feels no regret for this decision.

That's who Angron is, in his heart of hearts. It's not all of him. He's the person who let aliens escape and shielded mutants and offered mercy to the outcast and the despised. But he's also the person who ordered the ceramite boot of his Legion to crush the head of every last toddler and felt the satisfaction of a promise kept and a job well done.

The distinctions of warriors are the lies of cowards who refuse to acknowledge the truth of what they are. As you point out, an ordinary human soldier might as well be in chains for all the chance he has against Angron. The Primarch has slain thousands of those soldiers with his own axe, butchering them for the dreadful sin of resisting the High Rider's yoke. And while our Legion is not the Night Lords, civilians die when we bring worlds to compliance. The old man caught in a burning house, or the teenager trapped in a crossfire. How many innocent lives have we taken in the last century?

Tchar is not innocent. He had a better chance than the toddlers of Nuceria or the civilians caught in the gears of the Great Crusade. He made a mistake, and now he pays for it. Just as we will if the Emperor discovers our schemes before we are ready to act. The heights are paved with daggers, and those who slip should not expect a mercy they would not grant.

Crimes? Why would the mighty speak of law? Tchar was useful to us alive, but our brother thinks he would be more useful dead. Lorgar offers us the sword, and he has given us many reasons to trust his judgement. Tchar was an asset, but assets exist to be expended. He would sacrifice us for his own ends- he has made no secret of that- so we should we hesitate to do the same?

Our hands drip with the blood of billions. Shall we stand upon a mountain of infant skulls and claim that we are not a murderer?
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I mean.

No, that's not who Angron is. It's a thing he did, once, in the exceptional circumstances of just starting out and having been subject to Nucerian cruelty for his whole life, but as @Wade Garrett points out above, it's not an approach he's repeated basically ever, so I don't know where you're getting this idea that it's who Angron is. He's not.

As for the rest, the whole 'the distinctions of warriors are the lies of cowards who refuse to acknowledge the truth of what they are.' stuff, uh... No, frankly, that's just a steaming pile of edgy horsecrap used to justify making no attempt to restrain the horrors of war. Lorgar is inventing a god because the world should be better than that. Now is exactly the time to cling to principles and fine ideals.
 
Obviously others may differ, and this is informed by my personal opinions, but I want Tchar dead and fucking gone. Tchar presents an illusion that its deals are fair because both parties entered into them willingly, but this is a lie. Tchar will act whether or not you agree or ask [1]. Tchar seeks to accustom you to its deals, and then always wheedle just a little bit more [2]. Tchar will give you a gift and count it a deal that leaves you in debt [3]. Tchar will find you when you're desperate, and offer you a way out -- but it's a deal you made without full knowledge that can damn not only you but those you love as well. Not only did Ghreer not actually know what he was agreeing to [4], but Tchar's deal would have given him a claim on the Chainbreakers as a legion, and even after attempts at mitigation it could have harmed others that Ghreer loves [5]. Tchar may say that it only gives "bargain freely offered, price fairly agreed" but it's exactly the same bullshit that every goddamn predatory payday loan company gives: 'if you sign on the dotted line, even if we obscure what you're agreeing to, even if it's at ruinous cost, we'll save you right now -- and then do our damnedest to keep you in debt forever.'
[X] Slay Tchar

1: "Angron will not refuse this gift. Partly [...] because if you refuse the secret then Tchar will find some other way to 'help' you."
2: "Always it offers boons and prizes and then slides in a little note of obligation at the end, tempting and cajoling you into agreeing, into giving just a little more."
3: "Clever men might have been tempted to leave that out, to accept a free gift in exchange for no burden, but with Magnus' aid you've gathered stories from a hundred worlds and people who get clever with spirits never come out ahead." This is, admittedly, Angron's understanding of how deals with daemons works, but from what I understand it's very accurate.
4: "You can't say for certain, but it feels right, and judging from the way Ghreer's face goes utterly ashen it rings true to him as well."
5: "Likely there is nothing that this creature can do to the Chainbreakers as a whole now, but that does mean that the effect is focused entirely on Ghreer himself."
 
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I do find it funny that the worry about Lorgar falling to Chaos, thinking he could safely use its warp powers to ascend humanity to the next stage and drag us down with him... the moment he pops up, saying he can use the warp powers of the belief of the human race to ascend humanity to its next stage of purpose we're right onboard with him.
 
Yeah, uh, the loan shark metaphysically locked by definition into being an asshole who already acted on that in a way we're aware of IC is not exactly the best place to act as a caricature of peace and forgiveness. (Like, seriously, I'm not seeing any coherent reason to want to let Tchar go be evil other than hoping it somehow wins brownie points to do this...right in front of Lorgar after rejecting his plan...for reasons?)

If this was pre shady backstabbing/ manipulation, it might be different IC- but right now we have all the reason in the world to make with the choppy chop and negative reason to just let Tchar out so it can be our and everyone else's problem again.

The good news for Tchar is that we're going to give it what it wanted- us acting against the Emperor, and we are not in fact going to enslave it.

The bad news is that it probably has a sword allergy and chicken is on the menu.

The sword is all but called the "duty" option. I think we should take it.
 
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I don't feel that the principals argument very convincing. If we free him with the terms he can't bargain with the chainbreakers what principals are we setting? "As long as I don't know about the horrible things you are doing to others I don't care?" Or the other, don't bargain with mortals deal. That's either, I have Magnus level hubris and I'm instantly betrayed/hoodwinked. Or better yet we offer mercy and then turn around and let Tchar slowly die of starvation? This isn't a prisoner who can be changed or reformed Tchar must make bargains that advance his master's desires and, those desires kill and corrupt people.
 
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