Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.

Hugh Bris is a coward's word. We start tomorrow!

God I love this Logar.
Trust him: No,
but love him?
Absolutely.
Favorite Brother Material.

Edit:
[X] Slay Tchar

other than taking in a debt over our Legion Master Tchar has done us no wrong and in doing so has demonstrated that his goals and ours were previously aligned well enough that he had no need too. But... Tchar did try to hold one over the Legion... and the idea of spitting in the face of Chaos while we try to build a God of our own sounds incredible.

...and the first step down that path is to Slay Tchar and besides Angron doesn't need or want a slave nor the security risk Tchar represents walking free.
 
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What about the rest of his brothers? What about killing Tchar without talking to them about this?

What, and give it MORE opportunities to sink its claws into them? It has only one goal: freedom. It will tell any lie, sow any discord it can if it thinks it can get it.

Yea, murdering a prisoner in cold blood who is begging for their life is pretty nasty stuff. However, they totally did conspire to brew a civil war in the Imperium which would cause death and destruction on a massive scale. They were honest with us about their aims but that was still their goal. I don't believe in the death penalty as a punishment for criminals but if anyone has earned then it's Tchar. Very tricky decision, yes. I am not sure whether slay or free is the best option but I am leaning towards free.

A daemon isn't a person. It's a living, cancerous idea. Killing it isn't like killing a person. It's like smudging a line of text out of the universal book; a hateful little bit of script that is now blank and open for something better to be written in it's place. Additionally, daemons DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL. This is what sets them apart from mortal. Daemons CANNOT act contrary to their origins or character. They are living ideas, and therefore incapable of change, because what they are is WHO they are. I get it's a common urge to anthropomorphise things, and if this were ANYTHING else, I'd say let it live, even in chains. A Necron can change. Even a Drukhari can change. But Daemons are more like Orks or Tyranids; they view the world through a fundamentally warped lens that is inimical to sapient life. They CANNOT be trusted, only bartered with, and that in itself carries eternal risk.

So before I forget:

[X] SLAY TCHAR

Chop-chop Turkey-boy.
 
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There are very few opportunities to fully kill any daemon, much less a greater one, much less a greater Deamon of the Flaming Foul. Tchar is a High Rider, who feels that the best path to manipulate Angron is to be honest. His best case scenario involves us killing Malcador AND Dorne, shattering the unity of the legions and kicking off a civil war between our brothers, the Emperor, and whoever else is waiting to pounce on humanity from the dark corner of the galaxy. And honestly? Killing, permanently, a greater daemon of Tzeetch would save so many lives and souls, entire worlds and sectors spared the ravages of chaos, it's worth it. We may not know the cost, but becoming the avatar of the Anathema or even the Golden Man/god (unlikely) would still allow us to shape and influence how this religion develops and acts.

In other words, let's get us some chicken dinner!

[X] Slay Tchar
 
Right, and I can think of a billion ways this can go wrong. He could simply go back to the immaterium and have other daemons doing the meddling without explitictly telling them too, he can take overly strict definition of the word meddle, or use complicated theological arguement about the soul that no one is truely mortal so no one is affected by it, or restrict his meddling to affairs of Immortals.

Like say, the Primarchs and The Emperor, and through them the people they rule over.

Fair enough, I suppose I have to Concede that point and suggest that next time we get a chance to test these sort of ideas we bring Magnus along. I think I'm gonna change my vote as well.

Edit: To clarify, I would Dispute all of it, But the simple fact that I would need to Dispute it, and Complicate the deal to start dealing with contingencies proves your point more thoroughly than literally anything else could.
 
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[X] Free Tchar

Stabbing an ally in the back for the betrayal of not having a relationship with us we turned down in the first place really doesn't sit well with me. It's deciding suspicion of motives frees you of all obligations, and fundamentally makes Angron untrustworthy in the worst, literal sense; of him not being worthy of trust.

Our relationship with Tchar is purely transactional. He made it very clear at the start that he was using us for his own ends, just as we are using him for our own ends.

He kept his bargains. We kept our bargains. At no point did we ever offer him a promise of protection. There are no obligations between us. Tchar is not our ally or our friend or our brother; he is a ruthless, scheming warp being, and we are a brutal posthuman warlord.

Angron has no cause to be particularly angry. There was no trust betrayed here, as neither of us ever trusted the other in the first place. Tchar saw a chance, he made a bargain, and he saved many of our little brothers. But we don't want him to have his hooks in our Legion Master, and we are heavily invested in our alliance with Lorgar.

His death is not justice or vengeance; it is merely convenient.

[X] Slay Tchar

Because Lorgar thinks this way is best, and we trust Lorgar. It's nothing personal.

Freeing Tchar is just enabling in a way that makes no sense for Angron.

"Why yes I have no issues with your backstabbing and active attempts at corruption at my expense and the expense of my allies, and will send you on your merry way when you are gift wrapped for me, for some reason"

This isn't sparing Gollum, it's sparing Sauron for no apparent reason other than the manipulator baiting the hook a little before the painful if failed attempt to reel us in.

Angron takes heads and doesn't suffer those that would cage him. Take the daemon's head. We've just had it explained to us that it literally is a creature of manipulation that we know has been playing us, that's continuing to do harm and just set him up in one of the most painful ways possible, and which Angron himself hasn't killed because he didn't realize there was a way for it to stick.

He has that way now. Axe it so we can move on and do something more constructive than keep shooting ourselves in the foot over it with hilarious amounts of undesirable collateral. Ghreer and his sons matter far more than a creature that fucked around and should be about to find out- and which will continue to be a pain in the ass if bound, "spared" etc etc.

But Tchar didn't backstab us?

Backstabbing requires trust, and we've never trusted him. We knew that he made deals that advanced his interests, and we agreed to those deals when they were in our interest. He certainly withheld information from us, but he didn't owe us any information. He didn't owe us anything that we didn't pay for.

Tchar never promised not to make deals with the Chainbreakers. He saw an opportunity, he made a deal, and many of our "little brothers" are alive as a result. We have no reason to be angry.

However, we do have an excellent reason to kill him. If his death will free Ghreer from the bargain, then it's good for us. He's offered to release Ghreer, and under other circumstances I might vote to accept that deal. But Lorgar thinks this way is best, and we trust Lorgar.

We made bargains with a dangerous being who had powerful allies. Tchar also made bargains with a dangerous being who had powerful allies. I see no reason to engage in pretensions of moral superiority; we had a relationship of mutual convenience, and in the end it was convenient for us to kill him.
 
[X] Free Tchar
- [X] Angron came to free Ghreer, and Ghreer's freedom is offered to him now. Angron is a warrior, not a murderer. Lorgar wants a god of truth and light and boundless love, and such a god is not made by executing prisoners in their shackles.
 
[X] Free Tchar
- [X] Angron came to free Ghreer, and Ghreer's freedom is offered to him now. Angron is a warrior, not a murderer. Lorgar wants a god of truth and light and boundless love, and such a god is not made by executing prisoners in their shackles.

As I said earlier, we aren't playing Quaker Quest. Angron is a murderer, a butcher of children who slew an entire world.

Murder is murder. Angron has killed vast numbers of entirely innocent people who never did anything to deserve their fate. Butchering a fellow monster is not some kind of horrible crime, and fair fights are for idiots. The best time to kill someone is when they can't fight back.

I honestly don't understand why people keep insisting that Angron is some kind of paragon.
 
As I said earlier, we aren't playing Quaker Quest. Angron is a murderer, a butcher of children who slew an entire world.

Murder is murder. Angron has killed vast numbers of entirely innocent people who never did anything to deserve their fate. Butchering a fellow monster is not some kind of horrible crime, and fair fights are for idiots. The best time to kill someone is when they can't fight back.

I honestly don't understand why people keep insisting that Angron is some kind of paragon.

I mean, I voted for it not because Angron is a paragon, but because it seems like a good chance for character development and evolution *away* from the guy who butchered an entire world.
 
We are building a God of Human Principles here. Putting in Sugar, Spice, and Everything Nice. Adding the Chemical X of "cold blooded murder of a captive who has not done us any wrong" does not exactly seem like a particularly wise idea.

It's like how Malcador said on his story, if the Unspeakable King won, the Warp would have a claim on all that going forward. In the same way, beginning with a murder, and this is a murder, will narratively taint the entirety of Lorgar's grand creation. Angron has been a murderer in the past, but he does not need to continue to be one.

[X] Free Tchar
- [X] Angron came to free Ghreer, and Ghreer's freedom is offered to him now. Angron is a warrior, not a murderer. Lorgar wants a god of truth and light and boundless love, and such a god is not made by executing prisoners in their shackles.
 
[X] Slay Tchar

Lorgar's god is built from the faith of billions, not from the actions of one primarch. That's why the chaplains are out among the regular people instead of ingratiating themselves to his brothers, trying to influence them. I don't see any reason to believe that Angron slaying Tschar will have any detrimental effects on his god's creation.
 
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You know I am entirely convinced that Emp's entire initial plan regarding Angron was that he was supposed to serve (ironically) as a leash for the War hounds/World Eaters. When you take into account the initial batch of recruits were intentionally chosen for aggression, combine that with their original spartan esque fighting style and add in Angron's original empathy based powers it all adds up. Angron was supposed to act like the Roman god Mars to his troops but instead thanks to the Nails and all of Angron's buddies dying they ended up with Ares…or worse Kratos!

*cue God of War theme song*
 
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[] Slay Tchar

[X] Free Tchar
-[x] "This isn't the god we want to create, brother."
[X] Free Tchar
-[X] Angron came to free Ghreer, and Ghreer's freedom is offered to him now. Angron is a warrior, not a murderer. Lorgar wants a god of truth and light and boundless love, and such a god is not made by executing prisoners in their shackles.

I'd probably give freeing Tchar a chance if it were any other argument than "Angron isn't a murderer", because really? Angron clearly is murderer.
 
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[X] Slay Tchar

I'd probably give freeing Tchar a chance if it were any other argument than "Angron isn't a murderer", because really? Angron clearly is murderer.

The best argument I still have is that it would be a Bad Precedent to set for the first act in the name of their New God to be murdering a Prisoner, however the only Alternative I have is not truly Feasible and Tchar is, inherently, too much of a Monster to simply set free. He may be an Honest monster, but still a Monster.

So in the end, Killing him is the only option now, IMO.
 
You know I am entirely convinced that Emp's entire initial plan regarding Angron was that he was supposed to serve (ironically) as a leash for the War hounds/World Eaters. When you take into account the initial batch of recruits were intentionally chosen for aggression, combine that with their original spartan esque fighting style and add in Angron's original empathy based powers it all adds up. Angron was supposed to act like the Roman god mars to his troops but instead thanks to the Nails and all of Angron's buddies dying they ended up with Ares…or worse Kratos!

*cue God of War theme song*

There's a lot of little things in each of the Primarch's specialties; a lot of them seem to double-up in certain specialties but accomplish it in different ways. Corvus and Konrad were both heavy into stealth, one for terror and one as a rebel. Dorn and Perty were both siege experts, Dorn with the stronger defense and Perty the stronger attack (supposedly).

I'm convinced Angron was originally meant to see to his brother's psychological health, whereas one of the Lost and Purged was a medic and meant to see to their physical health.
 
[X] Free Tchar
- [X] Angron came to free Ghreer, and Ghreer's freedom is offered to him now. Angron is a warrior, not a murderer. Lorgar wants a god of truth and light and boundless love, and such a god is not made by executing prisoners in their shackles.
 
Would we be satisfied with a daemon that "respected" Angron and Lorgar, but continued soul fuckery elsewhere? Oh, Tchar would do it fairly. All of its deals are fair! And yet Ghreer didn't even know what he had actually done.
Yes, honestly. It's not a perfect solution, but it is a starting point.

Like, keep in mind here, at the end of the day Tchar is one daemon. A greater daemon, yes, but one daemon. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the infinitude of Chaos - spare Tchar or kill them, as far as consequences for the rest of the galaxy is concerned I don't think that actually matters.

But I think it does matter a lot for who Angron is, in his heart of hearts, and who Lorgar's god will be.
As I said earlier, we aren't playing Quaker Quest. Angron is a murderer, a butcher of children who slew an entire world.

Murder is murder. Angron has killed vast numbers of entirely innocent people who never did anything to deserve their fate. Butchering a fellow monster is not some kind of horrible crime, and fair fights are for idiots. The best time to kill someone is when they can't fight back.

I honestly don't understand why people keep insisting that Angron is some kind of paragon.
I'm not. Angron is a killer, he's slaughtered thousands, in standup fights and those who were helpless before him (he's a primarch; most people are helpless before him), with his own hands and by his order. But that does not mean he's a murderer, necessarily.

There is a distinction to be made between killing someone as part of an open conflict, even by underhanded means such as from afar or by ambush (many warrior traditions might even regard a skillful ambush as quite an honourable affair!), and killing a prisoner on their knees before you in chains. That difference may not matter to you, but it matters to a lot of people, myself included. The latter can only be called an execution. There's call for executions, sometimes. Is there call for it here, when Tchar is already offering us what we came for? And what crimes, exactly, would we be executing Tchar for?
 
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[X] Slay Tchar

Simple. We came here to get Tchar away from our legion and ourselves, let's try not to fumble that while we can.

As for Lorgar's plan we can deal with that later. Despite what Tzeentch and others think, the future isn't set in stone and can be changed (look at Guilliman waking up in 40k, it definitely changed fate).

There's a lot of little things in each of the Primarch's specialties; a lot of them seem to double-up in certain specialties but accomplish it in different ways. Corvus and Konrad were both heavy into stealth, one for terror and one as a rebel. Dorn and Perty were both siege experts, Dorn with the stronger defense and Perty the stronger attack (supposedly).

I'm convinced Angron was originally meant to see to his brother's psychological health, whereas one of the Lost and Purged was a medic and meant to see to their physical health.
The Big E definitely had defined roles for each of his primarchs, and you can see how their disparate upbringings have warped those plans.

There is a theory that the Primarchs are essentially old human warp gods forged in human flesh. Like that Russ is Odin and maybe Angron is Mars like you said.
 
[x] Slay Tchar
- [x] With Lorgar's permission, make it a killing duel

I prefer a duel rather than an execution.
 
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