LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
Legit question, what mech fuckup?
Everyone is Zaealix Mafia (Mafia)
- Thread starter hugh_donnetono
- Start date
- Mafia
The original pile-on was due to weird speculation on role cards wasn't it, i kinda class that under 'mechanical fuckup' in my head.
Nictis
Best Sidekick
- Location
- Ninja Dave's Cookies
- Pronouns
- Any
Better not.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
Ah.
TBH, I'm doing a reread and the way everyone just piled on on YP is honestly confusing as hell because he... didn't really do anything to deserve it? "talked about mechanics speculation day 1" is not inherently scummy imo, and the only thing anyone else had against him early on was like, a nothing flavor interpretation argument. At the peak of the YP wagon almost fully half the players were voting for him because... reasons.
YP may suck at defending himself, but that's weird as hell and I'm almost 100% certain there were scum on that wagon.
- Location
- United States
FWIW My vote was based on thinking that YP was a bad vote and that even if there wasn't a lot to go on on 99lies I thought voting him had the best tradeoff between the chance to hit scum and avoiding potentially hitting a town pr, since he did seem scummy to me. I thought YP had a power role because he hinted heavily at having one before he claimed and because I thought the "mech fuckup" was more likely of a singleton pr than it was scum in a qt, because if YP did random into his own name and was in a qt he'd almost certainly have a partner that didn't, and if he lied because he wasn't sure or misread the vanilla role card than it seems like a mistake someone would be more likely to make without and teammates to talk things over with.
I also thought the YP wagon was way to strong and had far too few valid alternatives to have any chance of being right. If there were two or three other scum on YPs team (which to me seemed the most likely numbers at the time) I thought they should have been be able to get another wagon to at least three votes to make it YP or X. A bus wouldn't make any sense since it was either over random chance or YP making a mistake about what's on the vt role card.
Internally it wasn't a firm jump, it was mostly a growing unease with my YP vote and then deciding to go for a suspicion that didn't seem to have big logical issues with it.
This is the first post I saw as him hinting at this. Most of the other were just that he raises the possibility of 3p existing, which seems weird to me since there's no publicly available information that would suggest 3ps exist at all, and it's not intuitive from the flavor.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
Fair enough. I don't personally get that out of that post, but I can see it if I squint.
While I agree that there was likely scum on the early YP wagon, I am still more stumped about the 99L pivot. Like, I don't see a single convincing argument anyone made that would justify that 8 people vote them up.
- Location
- United States
The reason why I voted YP today but did not vote him yesterday are
1) He claimed the pr, and it's a traditionally scum pr. Raises possibility for me of scum claiming his power to look like a town pr.
2) Seems pretty likely there's two factions with kills. That probably means the maximum number of scum on any one scum team is lower than the 4x +1 = 17, x=4 number, which raises the likelihood that YP is on a scumteam because it means he could be on a scum team (or be a singletown sk) that did not have the manpower to successfully divert.
3) Scum doesn't let town kill scum D1 with no viable alternatives. So as we approached the end of day 1 with YP still the top vote, the likelihood that YP wasn't scum went up because scum would do something to make sure he didn't get lynched. If YP is scum, they did though, so the "if he's scum, why are we able to lynch him so easily?" argument doesn't work.
IMO these raise the likelihood that YP is scum... but I'm going to unvote him (well, I guess actually take off my mistaken sheep of him) because putting it all out like that I'm not sure it convincingly answers "If he was scum, why was he the top vote with like 10 minutes to go at EoD?"
[X] Null
1) He claimed the pr, and it's a traditionally scum pr. Raises possibility for me of scum claiming his power to look like a town pr.
2) Seems pretty likely there's two factions with kills. That probably means the maximum number of scum on any one scum team is lower than the 4x +1 = 17, x=4 number, which raises the likelihood that YP is on a scumteam because it means he could be on a scum team (or be a singletown sk) that did not have the manpower to successfully divert.
3) Scum doesn't let town kill scum D1 with no viable alternatives. So as we approached the end of day 1 with YP still the top vote, the likelihood that YP wasn't scum went up because scum would do something to make sure he didn't get lynched. If YP is scum, they did though, so the "if he's scum, why are we able to lynch him so easily?" argument doesn't work.
IMO these raise the likelihood that YP is scum... but I'm going to unvote him (well, I guess actually take off my mistaken sheep of him) because putting it all out like that I'm not sure it convincingly answers "If he was scum, why was he the top vote with like 10 minutes to go at EoD?"
[X] Null
CoolCatmanC
Also known as RandomCommentsInc.
- Location
- Inside my head.
My argument for voting out 99 is that I know him from my quest pretty simple: Young Zaealix had just claimed invest and he was already at eight votes. It was highly likely, I thought, that if I didn't vote at all Young Zaealix would have been thrown out. However, If I voted 99Zaealixs (who already had six votes) There was a decent chance someone else would as well and so we'd at least tie.
That was my logic, and I stand by it. I really wasn't expecting the levée en masse that happened afterward, and the only reason I didn't retract my vote when that happened is because, again, not voting wouldn't have saved anyone, and the only difference was this time I wasn't willing to sacrifice the second-highest voted.
That was my logic, and I stand by it. I really wasn't expecting the levée en masse that happened afterward, and the only reason I didn't retract my vote when that happened is because, again, not voting wouldn't have saved anyone, and the only difference was this time I wasn't willing to sacrifice the second-highest voted.
I can't agree that the wagon was based on nothing, there were a ton of little things that just added up instead of one big slip. Getting their own name for example should be a less that 1/20 chance, the start with discussing conversion abilities, that I just really dislike because it diverts the attention towards unlikely hypotheticals, the fact that it seems that he knew that you can get the name of other players than yourself before anyone claimed to be anyone but themselfs and afterwards stating that they suspect that you can get a name that isn't yours, using misleading lingo, like "explicitly" when they should only have have, and also said afterwards that it was only theorising. All in all, it was a wagon that was miles more solid that voting out 99L because they didn't sufficiently explained why they vote YP.
Then there are their arguments on who they find scummy, which is mostly just people who find them scummy. Combine that with that I think that yp's role is way more dangerous as scum power than as town power and their last EOD mess-up, I do think that apart from someone slipping up, yp is the best vote today.
[X] vote Young Pyromancer
[X] vote Young Pyromancer
Cyricubed
Residant Bird.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Birb
Correct. And if you note I had the same suspicions earlier. 99 jumped onto a wagon with the only real given reasoning being they were following some else logic(or at least that's what I spotted.)
I also stated this before the votes piled in, my reasoning hadn't changed. I barely had time to catch up in the last few minutes of the game, I evalutated and picked a vote. Was the wrong one? Certainly we voted out town.But hindsight is always 20/20 and at the time I both viewd 99 as more viable to be scum > YP while also wanting YP to survive the first cycle that he's played in ages I believe.
I feel you are forgetting a lot of names here.
I agree, there but I think there could be more? I need to look into their day 1 more deeply.
This. It's a really balsey move but it could be something of a long con, set snickers up to be vanilla so that sk or other scum will ignore them in favor of stronger power role players.
Oh, who did I miss?
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
An exhaustive list of people who voted YP, and when.
So, in conclusion, my sus list is roughly:
Draxy
Nictis
Atoms
and most importantly:
[x] Vote Scia
I don't expect to change this vote but for a shockingly good explanation on Scia's part or sudden reveal of hard scum ID by an investigator.
Nictis:
CCC:
Snickers:
Shadell:
Atoms:
Draxy:
Later, after YP makes their role claim:
RoachTV:
Removed in response to YP claim here:
Capital:
Capital later changes votes here:
LoR:
99:
Special bonus round! Scia:
Literally the first vote of the game, removed as soon as YP responded. NAI.
This... speaks for itself honestly. Were this anyone but Perpetual Chaos Goblin Nictis, this would be incredibly sus. Since it was Nictis, I rate this a mere "fairly sus". If anyone wants to know why I'm side-eyeing nictis, it's this.
CCC:
First vote on YP not immediately rescinded. Justifications is some argument about some flavor argument that is kinda nonsensical, and this initially reads as a meme vote. It stays for long enough that I think CCC talked themselves out of it being a meme over the course of the dumb flavor argument. That said, I don't find this alignment indicative because the "newbie trying to do their best" vibes from CCC are so strong that they're coming off my screen in waves.
Vote rescinded here, just before LoR placed their vote.
Snickers:
Second vote on YP. Stated reasoning: the same substance-less flavor argument as CCC, with a side of "speculating about game setup is bad". A possibly important data point, though, is that YP was just talking about finding them Sus.
Shadell:
Third vote on YP. This justification... I don't like it. I don't like it at all, and in fact I disagree with most of Shadell's subsequent posts quite strongly. But, while they were honestly the top of my sus-list last night, a reread has me of the opinion that while I think they're wrong, being wrong isn't an indicator of being scum.
Atoms:
Fourth vote on YP. First one that turns the flavor nonsense argument into something I can actually follow as a reason to vote YP. Notably, however, the logic is immediately undercut in part by a post from Nictis, and then entirely by an information post by the GM. And yet this vote doesn't change for literally the entire day. I find this a bit suspicious, personally.
Draxy:
Fifth Vote. I honestly have nothing. There's no justification going on here or anything, it's just "oh yeah I forgot earlier". This is neither clarified nor questioned, and I'm honestly not sure which part of that is weirder. Definitely a bit Sus.
Later, after YP makes their role claim:
RoachTV:
Sixth vote. They later elaborate the argument convincing them was Atoms', and we know from hindsight that they were town.I do find that "I used to be me" comment interesting, for the reasons pointed out. Just gonna place my vote there for now.
[x] Vote Young Pyromancer
Also, I approve my nickname! Thank you
Removed in response to YP claim here:
Capital:
Seventh vote. IMO the most solid reason put forward yet that wasn't immediately undercut. I don't agree, but solid enough that I don't suspect ulterior motives going on here.
Capital later changes votes here:
LoR:
Eighth vote. We are now sitting at 7 votes out of 17 players, and at this point I think maybe two of them are justified? LoR is... I don't like it, but it's internally sound. I found them a bit sus during D1 proper, but of course hindsight proves that to be a false read.
99:
Ninth vote. This is just naked bandwagoning and doesn't pretend to be anything else, but we know 99 wasn't actually scum.
Special bonus round! Scia:
Thirty minutes before day end, a fuckin' no kill vote. Something that had literally never been discussed at any point during the game, and would benefit no-one but Scum if it somehow magically overtook the leading wagon. This is super weird behavior but, on its own, does not appear to be enough to consider anti-town.
This shit though... Literally two minutes before end of day, slapping a last minute vote on the leading wagon and thus confirming the kill, when you had previous voted for no kill whatsoever? That's sus as fuck, and I honestly don't see a logic chain for this being a town sided action.
So, in conclusion, my sus list is roughly:
Draxy
Nictis
Atoms
and most importantly:
[x] Vote Scia
I don't expect to change this vote but for a shockingly good explanation on Scia's part or sudden reveal of hard scum ID by an investigator.
CoolCatmanC
Also known as RandomCommentsInc.
- Location
- Inside my head.
Wow, I hadn't caught that backstep from a no-kill vote. That's odd as all hells, especially given that 99Zaealix was already the majority vote.
[x] Vote Scia
...I also hadn't realized how little explanation Zaealixy gave, thanks.
[x] Vote Scia
...I also hadn't realized how little explanation Zaealixy gave, thanks.
- Location
- United States
Hmmm, I'd remembered them discussing YP earlier, I think as part of the mech or flavor discussion? I'll have to go digging for it and I'm not going to do it right now, but I did remember that happening.
- Location
- United States
Who was your preferred candidate?
If you look further back you can see that based on the debate I felt it was worthwhile to keep YP as at that time "rolecop is town " felt for me like the more likely reading. After all if YP dies d2 we are validating the n1 reveal. Thus also my call to the two people that had the other , far behind ,wagons at that time ,when it was .. 8 2 2 if I remember it right, to prepare a defence if the wagon pivots to them if they had a stronger role or defence that they wished to use .
The no kill/null came up when I asked for a detail on its interaction with null to the gm.
And if I remember it right the majority was 1 vote , which would mean that one of the nulls could move it toward towards a draw and so a removal of YP befor we could validate 2 people via him .
After all consider that th3 whol3 "rolecop is scum" debate that appeared today 2asnt ther3 .
And so ensuring that a self proposed vanilla dies over a proposed town power role seemed like a good idea .
CoolCatmanC
Also known as RandomCommentsInc.
- Location
- Inside my head.
I don't know what the GM said, and your logic is the same I based my logic on-- But you voted with two minutes left, Scaealix. What did you think was going to happen? I'm half certain those nulls were absent, and I'm even pretty sure two of them had actually warned us of that earlier when we discussed who'd be there for the turnover. At worst that's a tie; I've never played on this site before but I'm thinking ties don't result in both dying.
Also, what do you mean by "validate 2 people via him"? The most I can think of is him checking roles (which we didn't know he couldn't do, at that point), but we weren't discussing that, and even were it true that doesn't guarantee precisely two people. Did you mean that in the sense that now Zaealix4444 and Young Zaelix are clear? That makes more sense... but it also doesn't account for the fact Zaealix4444 volunteering. One of several. That Young Zaealix could choose from.
They aren't clear; They are a pair, and that means their claims rely on each other. People aren't clear until the game's over or we're all dead.
...unless there's a mayor-type role, but you get my point.
Also, what do you mean by "validate 2 people via him"? The most I can think of is him checking roles (which we didn't know he couldn't do, at that point), but we weren't discussing that, and even were it true that doesn't guarantee precisely two people. Did you mean that in the sense that now Zaealix4444 and Young Zaelix are clear? That makes more sense... but it also doesn't account for the fact Zaealix4444 volunteering. One of several. That Young Zaealix could choose from.
They aren't clear; They are a pair, and that means their claims rely on each other. People aren't clear until the game's over or we're all dead.
...unless there's a mayor-type role, but you get my point.
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Oy! I've only ever been voted out d1 once! So I'm fact, I'd say I'm very good at defending myself, I'm just horrible at not appearing suspicious!
Mostly because a lot of people were waiting to see what was going to happen with me, but recognized that there wasn't a solid reason to vote on me. After my claim , between two people with lukewarm reasons to vote on them, better the self-proclaimed vanilla that was lurking.
This is almost exactly my timeline on Shadell also.
Actually, is it just me, or have we been in-sync with all of our reads the whole game?
Yeah. And someone was just saying that it was weird I found mostly players who were voting on me sus.
Shadell. See my vote on them that day for reasons, though now I think it's a play style difference more than anything.
When it comes to me mentioning 3p, I try to not leave any blatant holes in my logic, and so if something seems not-town, but not necessarily indicative of mafia, I add 'or 3p' to not potentially mislead others. Similarly, most of the time I try to take into account the fact that other people don't know what my alignment is when writing posts, and so me acknowledging that my logic on a post being scummy doesn't work if I'm mafia or 3p doesn't mean that I'm hinting that.
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Ninjad.
Let me stop you right there. I only spotted two people volunteering. I might be mistaken, but I thought only Nictis and Snickers (I keep wanting to write skittles, gah. Stupid lactose intolerance, messing up my spelling) we're my choices. So I was a lot more limited than you seem to think.
Additionally, I'm willing to do something somewhat similar again if it would help, though I agree that we shouldn't do the volunteering. Hopefully my confirmation with snickers gets me enough credit for the two to sort of stack, if that makes sense. I'd probably just give a binary 'yes/no' result response for them to confirm, but
Also, to people saying Snickers is vanilla: this is factually incorrect. Not only is there a possibility of some kind of spoofing, but I only check for ACTIVE abilities, so something like a passive extra life, or something that they don't have control over like a reflexive revenge kill, would not be detected.
Ties normally means the oldest dies , and in this case a random of the two of them dies.
And the clearing was in relation to a possible later town cleared yp clearing the subjects of his research by that in my mind
CoolCatmanC
Also known as RandomCommentsInc.
- Location
- Inside my head.
A choice of two people is still a choice.
also, I don't think anyone said they think Zaealix4444 is vanilla?
...actually, I like that defence; It's very personal rather than convincing, so it seems less likely to be a lie.
You have half-finished sentence again.
also, I don't think anyone said they think Zaealix4444 is vanilla?
Thank you.
So the interpretation I said didn't make sense? Fair enough, I suppose.
...actually, I like that defence; It's very personal rather than convincing, so it seems less likely to be a lie.