Bulwark Against The Terror (Warhammer 40k Chapter Master Quest)

Blackout said:

Yes, the Terminator suits don't come with Veterans. You could distribute some of them among your leaders or train initiates in wearing them, though it goes against the Codex and could be seen as disrespectful by other Chapters.

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Fair enough. I probably won't vote for any plan with those in then. We are tight enough on resources as it is to have 20 or so relics we can't use collecting dust. I would rather have something immediately useful.

UlseDovThur said:

Armageddon already has a speciality for heavily mechanized army's. We don't need to bring that kind of heat because the Steel Legion already has it.

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The way I see it, a mechanized combat doctrine has been proven to work exceptionally well on Armageddon, the local infrastructure and terrain favour it. We would actually pair brilliantly with the Steel Legion this way by performing the Astartes typical role, a lightning-fast rapier to their irresistible hammer. Hard to do that if our Marines move slower on a strategic map than the local Guard once the Drop Pods have landed.

On a meta-level, I admit one reason I like the idea is that the vehicle doctrine would give our newborn chapter something unique and different compared to their progenitors, while still taking advantage of the strong technological/craftsmanship background. That and I can't remember any Quests or novels where Space Marine Armour was given a lot of focus, so it would be fun to see what Blackout does with it.

Katana1515 said:

Fair enough. I probably won't vote for any plan with those in then. We are tight enough on resources as it is to have 20 or so relics we can't use collecting dust. I would rather have something immediately useful.



The way I see it, a mechanized combat doctrine has been proven to work exceptionally well on Armageddon, the local infrastructure and terrain favour it. We would actually pair brilliantly with the Steel Legion this way by performing the Astartes typical role, a lightning-fast rapier to their irresistible hammer. Hard to do that if our Marines move slower on a strategic map than the local Guard once the Drop Pods have landed.

On a meta-level, I admit one reason I like the idea is that the vehicle doctrine would give our newborn chapter something unique and different compared to their progenitors, while still taking advantage of the strong technological/craftsmanship background. That and I can't remember any Quests or novels where Space Marine Armour was given a lot of focus, so it would be fun to see what Blackout does with it.

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Well if speed is the issue, as it were, as I mentioned earlier I don't mind troop transports as obviously the Marines have to get to where they're going.

Hell, I would love it if we had a ton of biker squads as they're basically infantry on wheels. Plus they're awesome.

I just don't think there's any need for us to make use of heavy fighting vehicles like tanks and such as they can be operated just fine by the regular humans in the Steel Legion to either support us or come in after us. At the end of the day there's not much different from a Leman Russ piloted by Marines or Regular humans as it's still a Leman Russ, ya know?

UlseDovThur said:

Well if speed is the issue, as it were, as I mentioned earlier I don't mind troop transports as obviously the Marines have to get to where they're going.

Hell, I would love it if we had a ton of biker squads as they're basically infantry on wheels. Plus they're awesome.

I just don't think there's any need for us to make use of heavy fighting vehicles like tanks and such as they can be operated just fine by the regular humans in the Steel Legion to either support us or come in after us. At the end of the day there's not much different from a Leman Russ piloted by Marines or Regular humans as it's still a Leman Russ, ya know?

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For me it comes down to how the QM wants to treat support marines. If ~1000 marines is sacrosanct then yeah we need to be choosy, if not then a healthy number of dedicated tanks fits quite well with our planet. Plus I kind of want to go for a relic hoarder vibe if possible!

Uhtread said:

For me it comes down to how the QM wants to treat support marines. If ~1000 marines is sacrosanct then yeah we need to be choosy, if not then a healthy number of dedicated tanks fits quite well with our planet. Plus I kind of want to go for a relic hoarder vibe if possible!

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We had a whole thing about the 1000 marine limit earlier. Very much not a hard limit.

And yeah, obviously if we get our hands on a Relic vehicle we're keeping it, whatever it is.

Re: Space Marines and Tanks

Space Marines can make good use of tanks. If they couldn't, then every single Chapter in the Imperium wouldn't be using them. Let me get that out of the way first, because I know it's a contentous topic. The Imperium is traditionalist, hidebound, etc etc. But they're not stupid.

Space Marine crew have inhuman reaction speeds, stamina, capacity to process information and maintain battlefield awareness, ability to link in with systems of their vehicles through MIUs, combat experience unattainable by mortals, nigh-impervious morale, and thanks to being drawn from the same supersoldiers as which they operate in close support of maintain a level of coordination and unity with them that would be impossible to achieve otherwise. Wearing powered armour provides a level of additional crew protection particularly against shrapnel, fire and overpressure, the biggest killers for vehicular crew, and should their vehicle be destroyed allows them to contribute to the battle and/or make it back to friendly lines, preserving said valuable supersoldiers and their hard-won experience. Also having the strength of an astartes in power armor comes in really nice when your predator tank takes a hit to the treads and you need to do battlefield maintenance under fire.

Now, I'm not saying you can't buck tradition and eschew tanks entirely, and rely upon the Imperial Guard or serfs to provide armored support, but such methods will have their drawbacks. You will certainly have more Marines available to fight on foot, but the support you receive will be lower in quality. IG tanks are slow, lumbering behemoths that cannot keep up with a Space Marine advance, and staffing Predators with serfs goes against the Codex so could have ramifications in and of itself while still not being as high quality crews as Marines.

UlseDovThur said:

Hell, I would love it if we had a ton of biker squads as they're basically infantry on wheels. Plus they're awesome.

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You can get Bikes and such later on, but traditionally Salamanders don't like Bikes and Land Speeders so you don't have the option right now.

Uhtread said:

For me it comes down to how the QM wants to treat support marines. If ~1000 marines is sacrosanct then yeah we need to be choosy, if not then a healthy number of dedicated tanks fits quite well with our planet. Plus I kind of want to go for a relic hoarder vibe if possible!

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1000 Marines is not a hard, absolute line, but according to the Codex vehicle and aircraft crews are part of the line Companies, typically Reserve Companies. If you want to create a new formation to house the crews, separate from the Companies, it's possible, and won't get you executed or anything... on it's own. But it will colour people's opinions of you, and could be a contributing factor towards getting you investigated, if you do other stuff to toe the line.

UlseDovThur said:

Well if speed is the issue, as it were, as I mentioned earlier I don't mind troop transports as obviously the Marines have to get to where they're going.

Hell, I would love it if we had a ton of biker squads as they're basically infantry on wheels. Plus they're awesome.

I just don't think there's any need for us to make use of heavy fighting vehicles like tanks and such as they can be operated just fine by the regular humans in the Steel Legion to either support us or come in after us. At the end of the day there's not much different from a Leman Russ piloted by Marines or Regular humans as it's still a Leman Russ, ya know?

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Yes, which is why space marines don't drive Leman Russ tanks. The Land Raiders, Predators, Rhinos, etc are all significantly more powerful than anything the Guard can field. The differences having powered armored super soldiers for crew can do for battle performance should also not be discounted, which is important when you're fighting at space marine levels of intensity. It is disingenuous to pretend that we can ignore our vehicles and not get hit with serious consequences.

Hmm.

My only problems with the plans as they are is the Battleship. A relic spaceship is certainly a powerful asset, but I'm not sure how it fits into our strategy compared to other options.

I also keep thinking about the fact we're on Armageddon and yet not taking Extra Defences, but I understand it's not a pressing need, and not a proactive one.

KreenWarrior said:

I also keep thinking about the fact we're on Armageddon and yet not taking Extra Defences, but I understand it's not a pressing need, and not a proactive one.

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Take a look at my plan, 2 relic super-heavy tanks instead of the battlebarge!

The extra fortification is tempting, but its not like the stock fortress-monastery will be a soft target. Plus on a world with the industrial capacity of Armageddon, I think we have better odds of requisitioning advanced defences later. The improved apothecarion seemed like a better bet for getting geneseed into new marines quickly and reliably.

IIRC Salamander Geneseed was listed as at moderate risk of mutation, so the best apothecary staff and facilities available seems like a good idea.

Don't forget that we can get everything later, but I would like to point out that the first two plans (which have the most votes) have things in them that we can get harder later than others. (e.g. the battleship)

Blackout said:

You can, anything and everything on the list is achievable with enough hard work over the course of the Quest if that's what you want to focus upon.

It's just a matter of what you want to get a head start on.

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[X] Lords of the Wastes
-Mechanized Focus
-Armored Focus
-Armoury Staff
-Apothecarion Staff
-Cruiser Focus
-Expanded Apothecarion

[X] Salamander Legacy

[X] Salamander Legacy

[X] Plan: High Tech
-[X] Relic Battle Barge
-[X] Terminator Focus
-[X] Masterwork Arsenal
-[X] Armoury Staff
-[X] Cruiser Focus
-[X] Expanded Armoury

[X] Plan: High Tech

With us in charge of Armagaddon herself, I would really like us to invest in our void capabilities as much as possible. Both to shore up the space defences aswell as our ability to project power in the local system- since we'll have to leave more forces at home to defend such a prized target, we'll need more vessels to conduct patrols and missions. Relic barge and more strike cruisers or even an extra barge seems wise.

Remember Armagaddon's and the Steel legion have the planet as fortified as you can get in any system. We're not the Imperial Fists, we shouldn't be focusing on static defenses, instead on being mobile and powerful enough to tip the tide wear needed. We're not the hammer or anvil, we are the scapel. The Steel Legion nor Battlefleet Armageddon cannot react as fast or as effectively as we can.

We are bound to Armageddon but as descendants of a First Founding chapter , we will need to be able to respond to the wider imperium beyond Armageddon

[X] Salamander Legacy

I would like Expanded Defenses given...well Armageddon and all, but this works for me otherwise.

KaldorDraigo said:

With us in charge of Armagaddon herself, I would really like us to invest in our void capabilities as much as possible. Both to shore up the space defences aswell as our ability to project power in the local system- since we'll have to leave more forces at home to defend such a prized target, we'll need more vessels to conduct patrols and missions. Relic barge and more strike cruisers or even an extra barge seems wise.

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Absolutely. If I have my way we're going to fast track a proper shipyard. We already have a small dry dock capable of maintenance on cruisers to build off of and expand on so that's a great start on that front.

KaldorDraigo said:

Remember Armagaddon's and the Steel legion have the planet as fortified as you can get in any system. We're not the Imperial Fists, we shouldn't be focusing on static defenses, instead on being mobile and powerful enough to tip the tide wear needed. We're not the hammer or anvil, we are the scapel. The Steel Legion nor Battlefleet Armageddon cannot react as fast or as effectively as we can.

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If you look at the blurb for Armageddon:

Armageddon holds immense symbolical value to the Imperium as an example of a triumphant counterattack, and the High Lords are keen to see it preserved, for the Great Beast still roams the galaxy, pursued as he is by the Black Templars and the legendary Commissar Yarrick. He has returned to Armageddon before, and he will surely do so again unless stopped. Librarians also whisper of ill omens, of a darker force still, turning its gaze towards Armageddon, even more dangerous than Orks.

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The planet itself is likely to come under attack in the near future, likely from Chaos ('darker force' likely means Necrons or Chaos, I would think, and my money's on Chaos). We're not the Navy, so our forces will not be turning the tide against a major invasion force, nor is that our role. If we get enemy forces in orbit, it would be nice to have anti-ship weapons and void shields to prevent being bombarded, having enemies teleport inside our base, and so on.

flotter said:

Yes, which is why space marines don't drive Leman Russ tanks. The Land Raiders, Predators, Rhinos, etc are all significantly more powerful than anything the Guard can field. The differences having powered armored super soldiers for crew can do for battle performance should also not be discounted, which is important when you're fighting at space marine levels of intensity. It is disingenuous to pretend that we can ignore our vehicles and not get hit with serious consequences.

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Actually, by and large Astartes AFVs are largely comparable to Imperial Guard models, as far as armour protection goes, because they are almost universally based off the Rhino, which is a dedicated APC platform and you can't exactly slap armour on and call it a day. Armour is heavy, engines are expensive (assuming you even have another one you can put in) and astartes can legitimately push a pace punishing for even vehicles, so any vehicle they have needs to either be able to keep up with their rate of advance or provide some other niche that space marines in power armour can't normally fulfill, or would rather not die doing. Not for nothing is the Predator considered a Light Tank to the Leman Russ' Medium Tank, and its not because the Russ has an extra sponson or a potentially (because Leman Russes can pack twin linked lascannons too, the same armament as the Predator Annihilator) bigger main gun.

Mind, this is for modern Astartes armour, which revolves around the Rhino's ubiquity and versatility. What I said flies out of the window once you bring in Land Raiders and Sicarians. But it should be noted that Institutional focus on Mechanised Warfare is not a straight improvement, but a compromise. A broadly beneficial one tactically (obviously tanks will add even more onto the already hefty chapter technical debt that Techmarines need to pay) but not outright superior. Unless you have loads of Land Raiders and Sicarians. But that won't be for some time.

True.

I would say that Predators are of a higher quality than Russes... within their intended role. They're still in different weight categories.

And a tank focus is naturally a compromise with downsides, just like focusing on aircraft, infantry, or even not having a focus. But right now you don't have any vehicles, except for exactly enough Thunderhawks to ferry your Chapter to battle.

Taking Armoured Focus won't make you tank-heavy for a Space Marine Chapter, it'll make you tank-heavy for a newly founded Space Marine Chapter. Most estabilished Chapters will have several squadrons worth of Predators and Vindicators. (Well, most Chapters won't have a Fellblade, but most Chapters are not Successors of the Salamanders.)

Not having pre-existing veterans also seems riskt now that i think about it. We're defending one of the imperium's most prized planets with novel astartes

Hence my preference for a vote including Sergeants. Having a blooded nco cadre will give our shinies a string example to follow.

[X] Salamander Legacy

[X] Salamander Legacy

[X] Salamander Legacy

I know experience might be a problem, but I think we'll get plenty of that on Armageddon once we get our boys to cleanse the orks from it.