Shards of Awakening

Slippery slope "Who will she throw out next" sort of argument? Perhaps he might care for that insofar as it could further decrease market participation, but people always seem to resist the slippery slope argument.
Not so much slippery slope; more that letting the pig decide that this spirit-blood's not allowed means that other spirit-bloods are also much more likely to be ostracised, as people will take their cues from her (and not from us, as by that point we'll have lost to her). That kinda cuts off a fairly important potential chunk of the market, especially since on average they have higher talent than normal people.
 
A couple of appeals we can make to join our "faction" (In so much as it is, in fact, a collection of comfy pillows).

1. We know of a better pill refiner then those who work at that gaudy pavilion in the center of town. Introductions could be made.
2. We have made connections with older Outer Sect disciples, connections which through traditional means would be closed off to newer inner sect members. Introductions could be made which will open closed gates for more connections with a plethora of others.
3. Appeal to his resonance of connections and improving society - drawing in examples of the blacksmith, apothecary, and factory workers. Another possible analogy is that of a net; the more knots in a net that have connections to other knots, the better the net is at being a net. Just so, society is like a net, the more people there are with connections to other people, the better the society. Removing one of the knots in the net due to dislike not only hurts the knot but the integrity of the entire net.

Likely appeals that Liu Lifen likely made

1. Wealth - spirit gems is a commodity that she seems fairly free in spending. Unlikely to hold much weight due to his own wealth, and he is more concerned about the connections anyway.
2. Connections with other prominent out sect disciples - much more of a dangerous asset Liu Lifen can use to get him on her side. We can counteract this by mentioning our connections with already established Outer Sect Disciples that would normally be closed to him.
3. Tradition and duty - An argument that they need to protect the Empire from dangerous outbreaks of the spirit blooded. Unlikely to be a decisive factor in his decision, but can be undermined with the correct analogy to the factory workers and how improving their options and connections decreases their need to seek alternative means of achieving their desires.

This is certainly doable, which is fantastic news for us (3 out of 4 high nobles on one side of the fence makes it harder for the 1 noble to maneuver effectively).
 
Not so much slippery slope; more that letting the pig decide that this spirit-blood's not allowed means that other spirit-bloods are also much more likely to be ostracised, as people will take their cues from her (and not from us, as by that point we'll have lost to her). That kinda cuts off a fairly important potential chunk of the market, especially since on average they have higher talent than normal people.
Yeah... but we don't actually really know how common (specifically unsanctioned) spirt bloods are. It might be, essentially, saying "Other people, of which I can point to no examples because insofar as I know my friend is somewhat unique, might also hypothetically get excluded in the future" which doesn't sound like a super strong argument to me.

I suspect a wider point about spirit bloods in general would be well received.
That said, beyond words or resources the real question is what actions and agenda* we can offer him in turn.

*He very much seems to be the type of fellow to believe in "here's what I want, here's what you want, how do we align our incentives?" As such, we should consider here is what do we want? Not just in terms of leaving our friend alone, but in terms of overall patterns of goals we are likely to pursue.
One talent we have and should emphasize is that we're very very good at moving money around. It's literally what we do every single week. Piles of money, spirit stones, etc. Coupled with our panache for gambling, we're uniquely suited to ... what's the economic term I'm looking for? Vastly increase liquidity.

A couple of appeals we can make to join our "faction" (In so much as it is, in fact, a collection of comfy pillows).

1. We know of a better pill refiner then those who work at that gaudy pavilion in the center of town. Introductions could be made.
2. We have made connections with older Outer Sect disciples, connections which through traditional means would be closed off to newer inner sect members. Introductions could be made which will open closed gates for more connections with a plethora of others.
3. Appeal to his resonance of connections and improving society - drawing in examples of the blacksmith, apothecary, and factory workers. Another possible analogy is that of a net; the more knots in a net that have connections to other knots, the better the net is at being a net. Just so, society is like a net, the more people there are with connections to other people, the better the society. Removing one of the knots in the net due to dislike not only hurts the knot but the integrity of the entire net.

Likely appeals that Liu Lifen likely made

1. Wealth - spirit gems is a commodity that she seems fairly free in spending. Unlikely to hold much weight due to his own wealth, and he is more concerned about the connections anyway.
2. Connections with other prominent out sect disciples - much more of a dangerous asset Liu Lifen can use to get him on her side. We can counteract this by mentioning our connections with already established Outer Sect Disciples that would normally be closed to him.
3. Tradition and duty - An argument that they need to protect the Empire from dangerous outbreaks of the spirit blooded. Unlikely to be a decisive factor in his decision, but can be undermined with the correct analogy to the factory workers and how improving their options and connections decreases their need to seek alternative means of achieving their desires.

This is certainly doable, which is fantastic news for us (3 out of 4 high nobles on one side of the fence makes it harder for the 1 noble to maneuver effectively).
In terms of your appeals:
1.) I doubt he cares, really. One artisan pill refiner is interesting on an individual-cultivation level, but simply not a macroeconomic force.
2.) Possibly interesting to him.
3.) Likely most interesting to him, but should probably be phrases as pillows and/or nap locations because of the speaker.

In terms of Liu's potential offers
1.) He doesn't want money - he wants money to be spent. He doesn't really care who's buying what as long as people are voluntarily participating in the market. We should assume Liu is as insightful as we are - what ways would she be offering to wield her wealth in his interests?
2.) I suspect what he really wants is to find a way to not be in either faction, since he wants to maximize relationships/trade, the existence of two competing factions is a huge detriment to him in the first place as it artificially closes off avenues of capital exchange that would otherwise exist. Beyond connections, I suspect he'd rather we not be a faction, because that creates barriers he doesn't want, and is probably a better place to approach the conversation from then head-counting up each side.
3.) I doubt he really cares about the tradition/duty arguments - at least beyond giving them the appearance of consideration necessary for his station.
 
3. Appeal to his resonance of connections and improving society - drawing in examples of the blacksmith, apothecary, and factory workers. Another possible analogy is that of a net; the more knots in a net that have connections to other knots, the better the net is at being a net. Just so, society is like a net, the more people there are with connections to other people, the better the society. Removing one of the knots in the net due to dislike not only hurts the knot but the integrity of the entire net.
Similarly, the fact that all three of our hires so far have been about giving someone an opportunity they would not have had before might be an interesting point to cover.

If we can tie in how Dreams and Sleep relate to uplifting society I suspect that would be a good idea.
One talent we have and should emphasize is that we're very very good at moving money around. It's literally what we do every single week. Piles of money, spirit stones, etc. Coupled with our panache for gambling, we're uniquely suited to ... what's the economic term I'm looking for? Vastly increase liquidity.
But that's not something that will change regardless of which faction he joins.
 
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@dmclain2 how much can we actually interact with and observe dreams at this point or in the likely future? I'm specifically interested if we can or will be able to do things like wander the dreamscape of the city, and get a broad feel for the dreams of the inhabitants.
Things like "more and more people are having nightmares about disease" and "that area has an unusual cluster of worry about being injured at work" and "an aspiring architect over there dreams of the wonders he could build if only he had the opportunity"

In other words, how hard would it be to inspect the city's health like he just did, only from the perspective of dreams?
 
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I feel like this deserves a moratorium?

Though, a big problem I see with this write-in is that we don't actually know why spirit blooded are ostracised. We know it has something to do with the Calamity of Fire, but literally nothing else. @dmclain2 Does Quan Jia know why they're shunned, or is it forbidden knowledge? This is something we really should've asked earlier.
 
@dmclain2 how much can we actually interact with and observe dreams at this point or in the likely future? I'm specifically interested if we can or will be able to do things like wander the dreamscape of the city, and get a broad feel for the dreams of the inhabitants.

In the future, there's almost literally no limits with regards to what Quan Jia would be able to accomplish. What you can expect from DEJ now and in the future is more related toward finding things when/before you know you need them and avoiding bad luck.

Thematically, her future potential will depend a lot on what you want to put in the first, and subsequent, peripheral soul. Something dream related makes this line of things more likely, something more... defensive or fate related, it would trend in a different direction. It's hard to give a definitive answer at the moment, because so little is actually set in stone.

Though, a big problem I see with this write-in is that we don't actually know why spirit blooded are ostracised. We know it has something to do with the Calamity of Fire, but literally nothing else. @dmclain2 Does Quan Jia know why they're shunned, or is it forbidden knowledge? This is something we really should've asked earlier.

Quan Jia knows the official imperial story to whit: there is some "weakness" in un-sanctioned spirit blooded that renders them susceptible to the commands of the Calamities. This influence isn't absolute, but it is common (hence the comments earlier in the story about taking chances on Xiao Lien vs. shattering her core). The enmity, and knowledge of this weakness, stems from a prominent incident where one or more of the un-sanctioned defaced defensive wards that allowed the Calamity of Fire to burn a major imperial city and its inhabitants to cinders. Quan Jia thinks she remember that the Luo had a branch there, but isn't sure.

If one were to straw poll the members of the outer sect, or the cultivators of the empire at large somewhere between 3/5 and 9/10 would harbor some level of prejudice for spirit-blooded. Only 1/10 would likely be as virulent as Liu Lifen is though.

To add, I can put in a moratorium, but folks seem to be more intent on discussing things at the moment. So I'll leave it up to you all for the moment.
 
We could argue that we're spending our family wealth to uplift Xiao Len, a far worthier goal than hoarding it for ourself under his philosophy.

I'd also suggest painting Liu Lifen as a conservative, someone who will seek to keep and entrench power and fight new ideas.
 
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She made him an offer 2 weeks ago? Liu Lifen is working fast on this! This choice was even more important than expected.

I like the idea of turning the net analogy idea into a blanket. "The pig wants to tear a hole in the comfy blanket of society." Pigs are destructive like that. Heck, maybe Quan Jia's choice of insult is more on-the-nose (snout) than I realized. Liu Lifen does seem like the type of person who simply takes what she wants without thinking of the consequences like a greedy pig stuffing its belly. That might be a good analogy to make, though I worry that we get too one-sided a view of her and there's a chance Quan Jia's opinion of her isn't seen as the truth by others. It could be a very strong argument if its true though.
 
Did our taking an action with Sword Girl earlier get her on our side as well? I'd love if we accidentally managed to get all the noble kids on our side.
 
Considering the QMs clarification I feel like arguing that spirit blooded deserve a chance would be a pretty weak argument, particularly for Quan Jia.
Fundamentally, we didn't help Xiao Lien because she was a spirit blood (not in that sense). She happened to catch our eye, and then we invited her to the sect on a whim (and because we were lonely). However that's not to say we don't have a relevant argument.

One key theme I've noticed in Quan Jia's internal monologue on her friends is that she feels they don't see what makes them deserve nice things. So she tries to make Xiao Lien feel she's earned nice things, and that Mei Mei deserves friendship.
I feel like there's something of a link there between that and how Meng Chao feels about mortals/others.
"So is it…" she trails off, trying to think of a not mean way to ask, fails, and asks anyways, "the connections of exchange or the health of a society that is more important to Meng Chao?"

"A fair question," fortunately her, maybe, new friend doesn't seem offended, "and difficult to disentangle indeed, or perhaps unnecessary to. A cultivator may live alone on a mountain, pondering the Dao until Ascension or death; a beast may spend its days in solitude, following whim and instinct; but mortals must ever seek another."
His words here imply that he considers the bonds people have with one another to be integral to the health of a society, if filtered through the lens of exchange.

My main problem is I don't know how to translate this to a write-in. I'm on board for medium investment of time and money (6 stones/month and 6 actions/year), but I don't know how to get across that I believe-

I just had a mid-sentence epiphany. Quan Jia believes herself unworthy of the wealth and attention bestowed on her by her Dad, and tries to change the minds of others who think themselves unworthy of nice things. Maybe something along the lines of 'she can agree that ones circumstances and position in life should be irrelevant to their sense of fulfilment?' Like, she probably can't and/or isn't interested in allowing everyone the ability to find and do whatever interests them, but...

I feel like I'm going off on something of a tangent, is this making sense to anyone?
 
I don't think Sword Girl really cares for politics for bullying someone out of the sect or not especially not her sparring partner since iirc the teacher set up Sword vs Fluffy Tails implying they're a good match combat wise which is basically all it takes for Sword Girl to like you
 
While I think that pointing out that what Quan Jia is trying to do with regard to Xiao Len does match Meng Chao's philosophy, he is deliberately asking for an "offer".
Therefore, something should be offered here. Remember than Meng Chao will not break a reasonable deal, not even for a more lucrative one. (Although it appears that he will hesitate about being offered a deal that doesn't fit his principals.)
The Meng are a trading clan. So what would we like to buy or sell?
 
Hmm maybe we can try and get two birds with one stone since our chosen goal is to make our fluffy friend show her talent, kick ass, and be such a shining beacon of talent that no one can even think of kicking her out. While Meng Chao wants connections to important people and making inroads to a rising star would totally be in his preferred wheelhouse. So maybe introducing Xiao Len to Meng Chao could be helpful.
 
He deliberately held off for a couple of weeks after Luo Lifen made her offer because we were willing to make a deal with him over the house. Depending on how you read into it it might be he found us agreeable enough that it helped keep him from siding against us (he did start the quest at social rank 2, so he already had a good impression of us from our prior interactions), though we don't know his equivalent score with Luo.
So what would we like to buy or sell?
Short term we can offer him material and our time (gems and actions). Long term there isn't a lot we can offer him, the future's in too much flux, and acting as the heiress of the Quan clan feels a bit presumptuous.
I think the main thing we can go for with our words is trying to show that we understand what he's going for, and that we'd be happy to discuss it more with him in the future? I feel like a willingness to establish a longer term relationship (working or friendship or whatever) would be more valuable to him than any singular payment.

My main concern now is how to tie in our Resonance to the write-in.
 
An Offer You Can Refuse: Temp Threadmark
So I think there's been some good discussion around how Quan Jia could/should approach things and what she can offer, and I kind of want to reward that. So for consideration I have two different offers:

[] offer misc. bonus to voters (~+20) and allow them to focus on mechanics of offer (how much they want to spend)

[] provide a few hints that I think could provide the basis for what Quan Jia would say

The latter offers a higher max reward and the former the more consistent.

I'll set a tentative close for this mini-vote of tomorrow morning-ish. But since I realize this is a lot harder than picking a pre-formatted option, I'll leave the full update vote open longer than normal if needed.
 
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I think attaching our Resonance to the argument just applies the bonus points for how close we are to Quan Jia's mindset unless we show how our resonance compliments his goals, so I don't think it needs to be a high priority in the response.

I'm worried about giving more than a small payment of gems each month. 6 gems for the medium level payment is 1 more than we get normally, so we'd have to make sure we were making enough money to cover the extra. I'm leaning towards 3 gems per month + 6 actions for him in a year.

First attempt at writing a response in Quan Jia's voice:
[] Argument: Pig belongs in Sty
-[] "Of course I have an offer! She's my friend, and she's cool, and she deserves to be here and have nice things. That pig is only trying to hurt her because she wants to 'beat' me. Do you know why she's a pig? It's like all those connections you talked about: like threads in a loom, except they're making a good blanket instead of a boring shirt. It's all wrapped up together and ends up nice and soft..." She almost dozes off just thinking about it, but forces herself to focus, "Then the pig comes along and takes a big bite out of the blanket because its a hungry, greedy, ugly, stupid animal. The pig doesn't care that the blanket is ruined. The pig wanted to take something, so it just does it. Because its a pig.
"I'm not very good at boring stuff like helping every single mortal everywhere, but I want to help my friends. They're my connections, and I think my art wants me to make more. So I'll give you 3 gems every month, and I'll help you find more connections, follow fate for you if I can, whatever you want. Just don't let that pig take my friend out of the blanket."
--[] Offering 3 gems per month and 6 actions per year

Not sure how to write out the specifics of the action promise without it sounding clunky, so hopefully that works. I think this is a reasonably place to start.

EDIT: Personally, I want those hints to better understand Quan Jia. I think we're already fairly close, but hints could help us make a near perfect response for our MC. I'm assuming there's a higher ceiling than the ~+20 on offer and I'd like to go for it.

[X] provide a few hints that I think could provide the basis for what Quan Jia would say

EDIT2: Removing X's from my argument until mini vote is over.
 
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I dont really wanna spend much, or any cash on this. Were, frankly, overcomittting our resources. They're not bottomless, and our poor talent means we really need them, otherwise we quickly get surpassed and relegated to piggy bank. And thats boring.
 
[X] provide a few hints that I think could provide the basis for what Quan Jia would say
 
[X] provide a few hints that I think could provide the basis for what Quan Jia would say
 
I dont really wanna spend much, or any cash on this. Were, frankly, overcomittting our resources. They're not bottomless, and our poor talent means we really need them, otherwise we quickly get surpassed and relegated to piggy bank. And thats boring.
This is a good point. It's hard to judge the value of our future gems though. Idk how soon our income will increase or how often we'll be able to/want to go out on jobs.

On the other hand, giving up actions stings too and we have to offer something. Its just a matter of deciding how important the results of this roll will be to us. Personally, I'm leaning toward giving a lot (as you can see from my write-in). This is the big problem right now and one of the most important players in this situation (that we know of) is offering to be bought. How much is his support worth? How badly can he hurt us if we let him side against us?
 
I think attaching our Resonance to the argument just applies the bonus points for how close we are to Quan Jia's mindset unless we show how our resonance compliments his goals, so I don't think it needs to be a high priority in the response.
Showing how our resonance compliments his goals is actually a big thing. We WANT to achieve a coincidence of wants. That is one of the most compelling argument you can make to somebody as steeped in economics as he is.

The problem is trying to get a grapple on what the combined gestalt of Quan Jia's Resonance and SVs voting preference will tend towards.

So far I'm leaning towards something along the lines of finding the diamonds in the rough and polishing them until they shine, which can only be aided by what he is trying to accomplish. Seeking out all the varied wonders of life and pulling others in our wake, so that at the end we can all rest contently.
 
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This is a good point. It's hard to judge the value of our future gems though. Idk how soon our income will increase or how often we'll be able to/want to go out on jobs.

On the other hand, giving up actions stings too and we have to offer something. Its just a matter of deciding how important the results of this roll will be to us. Personally, I'm leaning toward giving a lot (as you can see from my write-in). This is the big problem right now and one of the most important players in this situation (that we know of) is offering to be bought. How much is his support worth? How badly can he hurt us if we let him side against us?
We don't know we'll ever get a future income increase.

We get a total of 20 gems per month.
Look at it this way - we already spend 2/5 gems per week just to keep cultivating (and that will go up when we go up in cultivation) that's 40% of our income spoken for.
If we spend "medium" gems, 6/month, that's another 30% of our total income, which means we'd be spending 70% per month. For the rest of the year. And our costs are only going to go up.

For comparison, we get 16 actions per month (not counting the free 4 explores) "medium" action is 6 per year. So 1 out of every 32 actions. Aka 3% of our actions.

Would you rather spend 30% of our income, when we know our expenditure is going to increase in the future, or 3% of our time?
 
Would you rather spend 30% of our income, when we know our expenditure is going to increase in the future, or 3% of our time?
I realized when thinking over your math that I had a weird disconnect in my thought process where I wrote "per month" on everything but was sometimes thinking "per week." I was very confused going over your math in my head until I figured out my mistake. :rofl:

So, yeah, I guess I'm willing to offer 15% of our current income and 3% of our actions to get Meng Chao on our side. (I also still think the actions are significantly more expensive in the long run. I just don't think we can afford to give up our money advantage in the short term.) I could be talked out of offering any money, I think, but only if convinced we don't need as large a bonus on the roll as I currently think we do.
 
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