A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
- Location
- USA
Fanwork#1200 Words of The Platinum Expanse advancement analysis. Alternate title: HONING HONING HONING
Edit: The word counter is screwing with me. Not 1700, it gave me 600 words out of nowhere somehow. Corrected. Wait, it just jumped by 40 words again. Correction corrected.
Unless we pick Honing, of course. Making decisions is lame, just grab more combat Int!
It would suck to not have Sky Veil if we even picked up a Cha->Wits converter, though. Can't deny that.
Furthermore, we gain access to the most overpowered stealthmode seen so far. Nobody could possibly confuse the moderately attractive one-eyed man in a garish sun-themed mantle for the one-eyed hunk in the Evening Sky! Shadowlord, pfft, more like Badohlord am I right?
But I actually hope that the daytime effects become more than an illusion, if we go down this path. Both Edeldross and some of the Blood upgrades are sun-adjacent in theming, and with Might's Repose/Edeldross cycles, it feels like we have half of the pieces to a puzzle. Pity that Gisena is the moon, though. It's awkward to have Hunger be the sun and stars and the sky but simply friends with the moon. This is why we should add Gisena to our panoply. Also we need a planet, where's Yong Shen when you need him? Letrizia has lots of planets, though, she can probably lend us one if we ask nicely.
Hunger could sneak, I guess. The opening of lateral abilities is useful, but it doesn't fit him at this point. His style of "infiltration" has firmly affixed itself in my mind.
In addition to the central effect, we also get Stats! ++Agi is nothing to write home about, but it does continue the trickle we've been getting recently from Vim and Gleam, and with all the multipliers we have to it any boost is welcome.
+++++Protection is great. We have a Cha->Pro converter, so one might think we're good on that front, buuut this is Evening Sky Protection! If we ever actually get Iridescence, it'll be a much broader defense, guarding more against magic and allowing us to temporarily thrive under Nullity. Don't underestimate it!
We might get killed by Doctor Apocalpyse, of course. But that too is a benefit! Would it not be an honor to be killed by such a genius?
In the end, though, Sky Veil is not Honing, and therefore it is TRASH. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Hunger: Sounds like a goo-
TYRANT: RAAAAAAAAHH you're not my real Accursed
Hunger: haha Charisma go brrr
The thing that we were just told is a problem is not a problem. I don't believe it, but for all the shinies offered here, I can pretend to!
This particular boost to Rank gain is amazing for the same reason all the others are amazing. A large portion of the push for Stranglethorn was the same +20% bonus. We're on the Rank path at the moment, and growth here is hyperexponential, so every bit is vital. It's only 10% more at our current level, but that could translate to more than twice as much actual strength. Everyone knows how good this bit is, no point belaboring it.
A +30% boost to Charisma as an incidental effect on a 7-Arete punchase is bonkers. We're at 230% now, but that's still an extra + for every 3.333 we have. And if we find another Defining Advancement that reduces Charisma, it's free real estate! Or maybe it just stops us from taking those, who knows.
We already turn Cha into Pro, so the extra ten or whatever would be a nice bonus. And Strength gets the same boost if we take this, on top of the Charisma we already have! Two, four, nine, eleven, thirteen? Yeah, that agrees with the character sheet. Eighteen more pluses to Strength before we even look at the multipliers. Almost twice as many as we'd get from tenfold echo! Which this choice also gets us closer to, since we can grab the tenth echo that will make Tenfold available as a 3-pick. Admittedly, Strength is the worst stat, but that's only because we haven't grabbed ADS yet. Which will give us five more Cha, incidentally.
And for all these reasons, that +++++ to charisma is even more amazing than it would be alone.
The most important part of Vanquisher Halo isn't any of those things, as cool as they are. The sweet Wits to combat Int converter- what? What do you mean it doesn't have Honing? This is garbage, throw the Halo in the trash.
"You can't do that!" the hypothetical idiot could reply, "You were just talking about how that was a terrible indication of Hunger's flawed mindset that could hurt a lot of people!" And yes, it absolutely could, especially if we pick Halo. However, have you considered hoNInG?
I rest my case.
Then I unrest my case, because Honing is amazing! +++Agi is superior to the ++Agi of Sky Veil, and for 5 less Arete, but that's not the selling point of either so it doesn't matter. ++Wits is great, especially with our rapidly ballooning Rank and the associated Blood sense. There's a lot of information available that Hunger doesn't have the time to process, it's going to waste. And, of course, half of those Wits go to Intelligence in combat. 5.5 for now.
A smaller number than others in this analysis, but Hunger is an intlet and only has 4! Given the subexponential growth of +s, each plus on his two hundred (or whatever) agility is only a marginal increase. but our mental stat growth has yet to diminish. It's not that he's, stupid it's just that he has more room to grow!
Battlesmarts is good for punching up, and is therefore conducive to Rank grinding. Honing is an excellent fit for our medium-term plans. And it'll be super cool, don't you want more Age and Treachery?
Yes, you do, and you want Honing as well.
"But-"
Honing.
Edit: The word counter is screwing with me. Not 1700, it gave me 600 words out of nowhere somehow. Corrected. Wait, it just jumped by 40 words again. Correction corrected.
I normally don't respond to the vote section of updates (especially when I'm reacting long after the fact), but this one is important. It's not just a matter of "do we want this now or later?" as many updates are, but it's shaping our social strategy for the rest of eternity. How will Hunger manage to avoid making everyone else feel bad for not being as awesome as he? Putting on a shirt is vetoed by the artists.
Unless we pick Honing, of course. Making decisions is lame, just grab more combat Int!
Sky Veil has the advantage of actually solving the problem! Just turn off the swag, it's that easy. Any future option will likely turn down the +Protection simultaneously- I'm not sure how much of a drawback that is, really. If we're blasting Charisma during a fight, there are bigger concerns than overawing bystanders. Hunger would be more vulnerable to ambush, but who cares? If you swing at the king, you best not miss, and even if they get past the Outer Shadow there's still Second Stage.
It would suck to not have Sky Veil if we even picked up a Cha->Wits converter, though. Can't deny that.
Furthermore, we gain access to the most overpowered stealthmode seen so far. Nobody could possibly confuse the moderately attractive one-eyed man in a garish sun-themed mantle for the one-eyed hunk in the Evening Sky! Shadowlord, pfft, more like Badohlord am I right?
But I actually hope that the daytime effects become more than an illusion, if we go down this path. Both Edeldross and some of the Blood upgrades are sun-adjacent in theming, and with Might's Repose/Edeldross cycles, it feels like we have half of the pieces to a puzzle. Pity that Gisena is the moon, though. It's awkward to have Hunger be the sun and stars and the sky but simply friends with the moon. This is why we should add Gisena to our panoply. Also we need a planet, where's Yong Shen when you need him? Letrizia has lots of planets, though, she can probably lend us one if we ask nicely.
Hunger could sneak, I guess. The opening of lateral abilities is useful, but it doesn't fit him at this point. His style of "infiltration" has firmly affixed itself in my mind.
In addition to the central effect, we also get Stats! ++Agi is nothing to write home about, but it does continue the trickle we've been getting recently from Vim and Gleam, and with all the multipliers we have to it any boost is welcome.
+++++Protection is great. We have a Cha->Pro converter, so one might think we're good on that front, buuut this is Evening Sky Protection! If we ever actually get Iridescence, it'll be a much broader defense, guarding more against magic and allowing us to temporarily thrive under Nullity. Don't underestimate it!
We might get killed by Doctor Apocalpyse, of course. But that too is a benefit! Would it not be an honor to be killed by such a genius?
In the end, though, Sky Veil is not Honing, and therefore it is TRASH. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Rihaku: Hey Hunger, you "specifically require" the ability to turn off your swag, how about yo-
Hunger: Sounds like a goo-
TYRANT: RAAAAAAAAHH you're not my real Accursed
Hunger: haha Charisma go brrr
The thing that we were just told is a problem is not a problem. I don't believe it, but for all the shinies offered here, I can pretend to!
This particular boost to Rank gain is amazing for the same reason all the others are amazing. A large portion of the push for Stranglethorn was the same +20% bonus. We're on the Rank path at the moment, and growth here is hyperexponential, so every bit is vital. It's only 10% more at our current level, but that could translate to more than twice as much actual strength. Everyone knows how good this bit is, no point belaboring it.
A +30% boost to Charisma as an incidental effect on a 7-Arete punchase is bonkers. We're at 230% now, but that's still an extra + for every 3.333 we have. And if we find another Defining Advancement that reduces Charisma, it's free real estate! Or maybe it just stops us from taking those, who knows.
We already turn Cha into Pro, so the extra ten or whatever would be a nice bonus. And Strength gets the same boost if we take this, on top of the Charisma we already have! Two, four, nine, eleven, thirteen? Yeah, that agrees with the character sheet. Eighteen more pluses to Strength before we even look at the multipliers. Almost twice as many as we'd get from tenfold echo! Which this choice also gets us closer to, since we can grab the tenth echo that will make Tenfold available as a 3-pick. Admittedly, Strength is the worst stat, but that's only because we haven't grabbed ADS yet. Which will give us five more Cha, incidentally.
And for all these reasons, that +++++ to charisma is even more amazing than it would be alone.
The most important part of Vanquisher Halo isn't any of those things, as cool as they are. The sweet Wits to combat Int converter- what? What do you mean it doesn't have Honing? This is garbage, throw the Halo in the trash.
"But wait," one might say, stupidly, "This doesn't address the issue at all!" I refer you to article A: "Superhuman charisma isn't actually a problem."
"You can't do that!" the hypothetical idiot could reply, "You were just talking about how that was a terrible indication of Hunger's flawed mindset that could hurt a lot of people!" And yes, it absolutely could, especially if we pick Halo. However, have you considered hoNInG?
I rest my case.
Then I unrest my case, because Honing is amazing! +++Agi is superior to the ++Agi of Sky Veil, and for 5 less Arete, but that's not the selling point of either so it doesn't matter. ++Wits is great, especially with our rapidly ballooning Rank and the associated Blood sense. There's a lot of information available that Hunger doesn't have the time to process, it's going to waste. And, of course, half of those Wits go to Intelligence in combat. 5.5 for now.
A smaller number than others in this analysis, but Hunger is an intlet and only has 4! Given the subexponential growth of +s, each plus on his two hundred (or whatever) agility is only a marginal increase. but our mental stat growth has yet to diminish. It's not that he's, stupid it's just that he has more room to grow!
Battlesmarts is good for punching up, and is therefore conducive to Rank grinding. Honing is an excellent fit for our medium-term plans. And it'll be super cool, don't you want more Age and Treachery?
Yes, you do, and you want Honing as well.
"But-"
Honing.
Cheap, yes, but not very effective and also not Honing. Echo? Eff no.
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ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Skyveil - Rihaku has been heavily implying that our memetic hazard-ness is going to be a problem if we can't control it, the fact that Rihaku is harping on it so heavily might be a hint on his part. Skyveil is basically perfect for the job and has other uses besides, we may not get another Charisma-control option this good ever or for a very long time, forcing us to go with a worse choice later on if we don't take it here. Finally, Skyveil unlocks new stealth and disguise based advancements and having more options is good.
Honing - Cheap, grants a heck of a lot of combat-Int, making Hunger much more competent in battle. Unlocks the rest of the blood advancement tree, giving us new stuff that benefits from +Progression. We (probably) need OaF to be safe against Ber, this gets there fastest.
Halo - Lol charisma is a problem? Haha no. Basically give up on charisma control, embrace being Imperia and socially steamrolling people. Gives a lot of Charisma and applies Charisma to Strength, meaning Charisma +s now applies to three stats - Charisma itself, Protection, and Strength. Also gives even more rank gain because +100% isn't enough for some people.
I'm on the Skyveil side because Rihaku has really strongly been warning that we might need to do something about being a memetic hazard, and I think he knows something we don't. Well, of course he does. But I think it's more urgent to deal with this warned-of issue then to get Honing (which we can get later) or get even more Charisma and combat power, which we already have a lot of. Covering a potential weakness is more important then marginal gains to existing strengths.
Others will likely put forward their own arguments as well.
EDIT: Or I can get Aeira'd by 1200 words of arguments...
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A major downside for going Vanquisher Halo is the fact that we are probably not the only ones to realize that Memetic Hazards from too much superhuman charisma exist.
In a world like the one we are in, where sci fi meets magic memetic hazards are probably something that they can theorize. Heck we can do that today.
So being known as a Memetic Hazard is just grounds for targets to prepare for that or outright refuse any sort of confrontation due to not wanting to see it.
Plus the mental issues of knowing that everyone around you likes you because you pretty much hold an aura of mind control around yourself.
In a world like the one we are in, where sci fi meets magic memetic hazards are probably something that they can theorize. Heck we can do that today.
So being known as a Memetic Hazard is just grounds for targets to prepare for that or outright refuse any sort of confrontation due to not wanting to see it.
Plus the mental issues of knowing that everyone around you likes you because you pretty much hold an aura of mind control around yourself.
Rihaku
The Internet
To be fair, the number of people with as much superhuman CHA as Hunger has is pretty low even in the Voyaging... high base CHA + Edeldross + Silver of Evening is a potent combination!
- Location
- US
You know, 30 Charisma is bad enough, but if we had gotten Threefold, we would be currently dealing with the issues of 90 Charisma. Sounds like that could have been real messy.
(That being said, I do still regret not getting Threefold. We better use our new Panoply slots wisely, or that would just be depressing.)
(That being said, I do still regret not getting Threefold. We better use our new Panoply slots wisely, or that would just be depressing.)
Tyrant_Rayne
Probably Not Evil… Maybe
- Location
- Canada
We are aiming for artifacts that grant new stats. Rihaku mentioned we would need manipulation to control our charisma if we don't take Veil. We could get an artifact that regularly grants it. Manipulation would also be useful in utilizing Edeldross or any new magics we get. It also opens up a whole new sort of social options. We could just manipulate people into agreeing with us.
From what I understand, Manipulation is a purely social stat dealing in suggestion and deceit kinda like what it does in Exalted. Not surprising because seems like most of the stats and what they do are the same from that game. There are different, new or reworked stats such as dexterity becoming agility, protection and luck.
Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
- Location
- USA
This is what most attracts me to Agents over Without Form. I think I'd prefer a distinction between "violence-licensed" Elementalists and those who can't, without the degree of bonus training and other perks offered by Agents, if that was possible.
also this bit of Formless is hysterical, I spent a bit wondering if it wasn't too unfair, but it's not so bad. It's just addressing a problem! So yea, going back to my original vote here.
And this line is why I can force myself to do the right thing and go with the actually-solving-the-problem upgrade. If we can get +Stealth as a stat, those +Alls will become more valuable. Still not as cool as Halo, but we spent 7 Arete on Aobaru and we should protect that investment.
[X] Sky Veil
[X] Without Form
So, I think we really ought not to underestimate the power that having complete control over the strength of one of our state will bring. Not only will it let Hunger be able to live without having to be wary of how he is a memetic hazard that makes people like him whether they otherwise might or not, but it could open up more subtle or finesse focused ways of employing our charisma. How often do you think we will get the chance to have more control over one of our stats, in strength or otherwise? Not to mention that presumably some people will be aware we are a memetic hazard with supernatural charisma and take measures against it or potentially against us. It seems To me like it could be really interesting to read about more subtle Employment's of charisma or mor dramatic revealing a of our full supernatural force of personality. Don't you want to take a step towards being able to manipulate and use our charisma like we can our pressure to some degree? Also, is giving up on being able to have normal fulfilling relationships with people other than those he has specifically ennobled to withstand his force of presence really sound like the Hunger we have been playing? Just some thoughts. And this isn't even mentioning the disguise shenanigans we will be able to get up to.
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- Location
- Earth
[X] Sky Veil [7 Arete]
[X] Without Form
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[X] Without Form
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Rihaku
The Internet
Such enterprising spirit!
[X] Vanquisher Halo
[X] Honing
[X] Without Form
Eh, I'm partial to both Halo (translate CHA to STR, always excellent) and Honing (S A V E) and I'm voting so either option goes forward. My preference leans slightly more to Honing but I'm pretty ok with Vanquisher Halo. Don't see the point of Sky Veil though. Why would we want to nerf one of our stats? Stealth isn't a serious consideration in Hunger's fighting style and I'd prefer to concentrate our power in fewer areas so they each have more impact rather than just stacking more and more random effects onto his build. Sure, being a memetic hazard might seem bad now and his presence might be 'overwhelming' to a degree for Aobaru and Aeira, but in time, everyone gets used to a situation just as the Manifest Realm's denizens got used to the supernatural beauty and excellence of the Sorceresses. It's not as though Aeira and Aobaru are ordinary people either, with the former being an Elite Surgecrafter and the latter a Super-Elite, so I find it pretty likely they'll adapt to Hunger's charisma shortly. I don't see high CHA being enough of an issue that I'd pay 7 Arete to weaken its effects.
Also. This is the second time Dr. Apocalypse has been brought up as a threat to a Geas-type Cursebearer. What if Apocalypse has already become a Cursebearer himself?! Do you really want to tangle with that guy, especially when our powers don't actually run off pure literary ability? Apocalypse could be roaming the multiverse right about now, having used an arbitrary amount of preparation time to scale nigh-infinitely... I don't think our odds against the protagonist who was surpassed only by Odyssial in the power-tier list would be good or even mediocre! Though Nameless is probably more powerful than Dr. Apocalypse in terms of shown feats... who knows what Dr. Apocalypse has become like now that his competence is not shackled down by the thread's incompetence?!
On the other hand, a protagonist fight between Hunger and Apocalypses sounds hella sick. Like, the kind of stuff only the most of rad of dreams would be made out of. One-eyed protagonist versus one-eyed protagonist, such a complementary battle that would be! But, I'd rather Hunger get a Fire Jewel-eye equivalent first before embarking on such a project. Rune King seems like a worthy solution!
[X] Honing
[X] Without Form
Eh, I'm partial to both Halo (translate CHA to STR, always excellent) and Honing (S A V E) and I'm voting so either option goes forward. My preference leans slightly more to Honing but I'm pretty ok with Vanquisher Halo. Don't see the point of Sky Veil though. Why would we want to nerf one of our stats? Stealth isn't a serious consideration in Hunger's fighting style and I'd prefer to concentrate our power in fewer areas so they each have more impact rather than just stacking more and more random effects onto his build. Sure, being a memetic hazard might seem bad now and his presence might be 'overwhelming' to a degree for Aobaru and Aeira, but in time, everyone gets used to a situation just as the Manifest Realm's denizens got used to the supernatural beauty and excellence of the Sorceresses. It's not as though Aeira and Aobaru are ordinary people either, with the former being an Elite Surgecrafter and the latter a Super-Elite, so I find it pretty likely they'll adapt to Hunger's charisma shortly. I don't see high CHA being enough of an issue that I'd pay 7 Arete to weaken its effects.
Also. This is the second time Dr. Apocalypse has been brought up as a threat to a Geas-type Cursebearer. What if Apocalypse has already become a Cursebearer himself?! Do you really want to tangle with that guy, especially when our powers don't actually run off pure literary ability? Apocalypse could be roaming the multiverse right about now, having used an arbitrary amount of preparation time to scale nigh-infinitely... I don't think our odds against the protagonist who was surpassed only by Odyssial in the power-tier list would be good or even mediocre! Though Nameless is probably more powerful than Dr. Apocalypse in terms of shown feats... who knows what Dr. Apocalypse has become like now that his competence is not shackled down by the thread's incompetence?!
On the other hand, a protagonist fight between Hunger and Apocalypses sounds hella sick. Like, the kind of stuff only the most of rad of dreams would be made out of. One-eyed protagonist versus one-eyed protagonist, such a complementary battle that would be! But, I'd rather Hunger get a Fire Jewel-eye equivalent first before embarking on such a project. Rune King seems like a worthy solution!
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Sky Veil specifically does not nerf charisma, but let's us control the degree we choose to release it against others. There are numerous possible strategies that involve allowing people to underestimate the raw force of our presence by simply restraining it until it is necessary. Furthermore, is it not possible that going down this route we could take more control of the stat or of other stats eventually. Is there not value in that? It also directly solves the problem of charisma, and we likely will never see anything that can do so quite so effectively even again and the Halo explicitly relinquishes that chance to even deal with it come what may. We really out not to underestimate it even if it does not look as shiny as it is still a 7 Arete option, surely between adjustable charisma strength, stealth, and disguise it is worth its cost.
Just saying we or our companions will get used to us being a memetic hazard in no way solves or otherwise deals with any of the problems that being such actually brings.
Just saying we or our companions will get used to us being a memetic hazard in no way solves or otherwise deals with any of the problems that being such actually brings.
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Rihaku
The Internet
An interesting tactic! Indeed, hiding your social power level until the opportune moment could result in unexpected opportunities against many opponents!
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
One vetoless vote marker if you vote for Skyviel!
Done (unless someone offers 2 markers before vote closes 👀)
[X] Sky Veil
[X] Without Form
Rihaku
The Internet
Much like a mercenary who, having undertaken a contract, cannot back out when the man he's sent to assassinate offers him more (because who would ever offer to hire such an unreliable asset in the first place!), it may not be wise to continue to hold out for better offers once agreements are made...