Fate/Blackened Sugar
- Thread starter AnonymousRabbit
- Start date
- Fantasy Modern
AnonymousRabbit
Rabbit Faced
Just watched the PV for FGO Part 2, OP 2.
I am hyped beyond all compare, my friends.
I am hyped beyond all compare, my friends.
Not saying we didn't do wrong, but it takes two to tango, lancer's not innocent either In this case. we can both do wrong. This is BOTH our faults, we came, that's our fault, but then when we back down (showing ourselves and being willing to talk) lancer escalates. I mean it makes sense sure, but that doesn't change that the entire combat encounter could have been easily avoided by lancer acting differently, us too for that matter. She chose to attack though, we chose to show ourself and hans chose to send us for info. I wouldn't call lancer escalating our fault, she could have attacked anyway, she was facing the general right direction after all, what is our fault is being there and revealing ourselves. To put all the fault at us alone is incorrect i'd say.
i do get what you mean about every action having consequences and needing to seriously consider each and every hint though. we'll just have to learn from our mistakes.
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- Location
- Somewhere North of south
Yes we traded upwards but unlike Sakura and Luvia we cannot afford to take these hits, for them this is a minor inconvenience.
They probably have another servant attached to luvia and the ability to call reinforcements, for us our ability to win the grail war is crippled. (Hopefully temporarily) and one of the masters who might have been sympathetic to our cause now considers us an enemy.
They could afford to take the hit, we can not.
[X] Wait for your Employees, hold Assassin's hand in the meantime.
Hadn't seen the Quest in a few days and I come back to find a complete mess.
I can understand why people wanted an alliance with Sakura. She is, after all, a canon and familiar character people are plenty of attached to already one way or another. It's kinda hard to, you know, just go and coldly want to kill them. It was much easier to have our cake and eat it too with Shirou last time.
Deeply agree with whoever it was who said that revealing ourselves was super dumb because the one asking was Medusa rather than Sakura. Medusa's always at her most ruthless whenever Sakura is involved, even if it's a different incarnation from Medusa from the FSN one she's still Medusa.
Kinda wish we had really gotten a Bad Ending so we could fix up this mess but it can't be helped now.
Hadn't seen the Quest in a few days and I come back to find a complete mess.
I can understand why people wanted an alliance with Sakura. She is, after all, a canon and familiar character people are plenty of attached to already one way or another. It's kinda hard to, you know, just go and coldly want to kill them. It was much easier to have our cake and eat it too with Shirou last time.
Deeply agree with whoever it was who said that revealing ourselves was super dumb because the one asking was Medusa rather than Sakura. Medusa's always at her most ruthless whenever Sakura is involved, even if it's a different incarnation from Medusa from the FSN one she's still Medusa.
Kinda wish we had really gotten a Bad Ending so we could fix up this mess but it can't be helped now.
- Location
- Somewhere North of south
Resetting would have been the best option, however losing assassin doesn't mean Hans is dead it just means we fight the grail war without a servant.
We've take a bad blow, and possibly one that will continue to affect us for the whole game to some degree, but assuming that Hans is correct about being able to fix the curse and heal the injury in a few days, it's still very recoverable. We'll have to play it easy for a bit, but we've got time; it's not like we were planning on pitting Assassin against other Servants anyways, so we just need to keep a low profile. The long term diplomatic penalty with Sakura is probably going to be a longer-lasting issue, but is also not 100% deciding in any way (I mean, it's not like Sakura and co haven't worked with someone who once tried to kill them anyways, and there isn't even that with us, we were just attacked because of us being a potential threat).
TL;DR: This hurt, but we can probably come back from this.
TL;DR: This hurt, but we can probably come back from this.
NephyrisX
Luck is my dump stat. And the dice shows.
- Location
- Singapore
Apparently I wasn't clear enough the first time if people still insist we aren't entirely to blame for this, so let me be more specific.
Everything about the encounter is our fault because Rabbit gave us several hints as to how Medusa will act if we revealed ourselves.
In other words, we should've known Medusa will act this way in the first place and we got baited because we didn't pay attention to the situation.
Here's a quick rundown of the hints:
Medusa literally warned us that she's already hostile to intruders. Who is Chiyome? An intruder. That in itself is a fairly big warning sign that people that should've taken heed of but didn't.
The very fact that it's Medusa, not Sakura, that offered an alliance should be a massive red flag. Why would a Servant broker an alliance without consent from her Master? Why would Lancer ally themselves with an unknown? Why would Lancer offer to help an intruder that's sneaking around their domain for less than savory reasons, sifting through their stuff?
This also includes meta knowledge like Medusa being known to be very protective of Sakura, or that Assassins are not frontline Servants that can go toe and toe with knightly classes like Lancers and Medusa, being a Grail War veteran, knows and exploits.
Rabbit gave us these hints and contextual clues specifically to inform our next decision, but apparently people didn't pay attention and presumably think the consequences of our decisions are trivial which lead us to this mess.
Let me state this very clearly: We have no right to blame Medusa for this failure when Rabbit literally gave us clues as to the likely result of Chiyome revealing herself and Medusa's own actions. Rabbit both subtly and plainly told us that Medusa will escalate but we didn't take heed of the hints. You don't blame leopards for eating your face when there's several signs telling it's a bad idea to get close to leopards.
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- Location
- Somewhere North of south
While I mostly agree with your assessment I don't agree that using the NP was what torpedoed any possibility of an alliance, I'd say falling for the bait was what did that.
I think Chain is referring to in-story and out-of-story blame. Out of story it is absolutely our fault. In story is where some of the blame is shared.
NephyrisX
Luck is my dump stat. And the dice shows.
- Location
- Singapore
By that logic, it still doesn't change the fact that in-story Chiyome should really have known better to reveal herself beyond Hans' orders, especially with the hints that I just stated.
Chiyome being baited and deliberately revealing herself is the catalyst for the encounter. Medusa wouldn't have escalated if Chiyome didn't go against orders and revealed herself. The escalation is therefore Chiyome's fault.
Once again, don't be surprised when you've been warned several times that doing this is a bad idea and you still go through with it anyway.
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Medusa trying to trick us was a provocation. If you're hiding from someone and they trick you into revealing yourself with the intention of killing you, sure you hold some of the blame for what follows considering you probably should have known better, but is it all your fault? Absolutely not, no one made this person attack you, let alone purposefully deceive you with the intention of rendering you vulnerable to murder-stabbing.
And yes Medusa had reasons to want to kill us, namely us being an Assassin near her master, but her master wasn't in immediate harms way at the time and Medusa herself acknowledged that we had passed up on our best chance to kill Sakura, and even used that as a way to try and trick us.
Like, I understand that it was the players fault, and that Chiyome probably shouldn't know better. But you're taking this too far in the opposite direction; even if it's 100% the players fault, it is absolutely not 100% Chiyome's.
NephyrisX
Luck is my dump stat. And the dice shows.
- Location
- Singapore
The fact of the matter is that Chiyome shouldn't have responded to the provocation in the first place. Chiyome was specifically ordered to only investigate the place. She wasn't tasked with negotiating with another opponent, she wasn't tasked with revealing herself when a convenient alliance presented itself (that's her Master's job, not hers) and she most certainly wasn't tasked to do any fighting unless she was spotted in the first place. The whole 'provocation to kill Chiyome' is rendered completely moot when Chiyome isn't suppose to respond at all.
And how would Medusa know her Master wasn't in harm's way? Does she know who Assassin is? Does she know whether Assassin has anti-Unit or anti-Army capabilities? Does she know whether Assassin can attack from multiple directions? Medusa doesn't know and that's why Assassin is still a massive threat to her master.
Once again, it doesn't matter if Medusa is sincere in her offer or not; it is still Chiyome's fault because she wasn't suppose to reveal or respond to the provocation in the first place.
I was going to respond to this, but honestly I feel like my response was getting more personal than the debate really warrants and so I'm just going to say I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.
at this point it's probably more important that we learn from our mistake, even if to me is only really noticeable in hindsight. like our options were between escalation by attack, continue the strained situation by hiding or attempt deescalation by revealing. Attacking is out since we're an assassin and facing a servant of lancers caliber. So it's between hiding and revealing, hiding carried the risk of lancer going 'fuck it' and just attacking in our general area anyway and forcing us to reveal ourself, thus causing a fight, with revealing carrying a risk of it being a trick but with the benefit of avoiding a fight if it wasn't. Those hints changed things with its info to making the revealing being a trick option obvious leaving hiding as the best solution, gotta get better at finding the hints then and translating them correctly.
- Location
- Brazil
I knew some emotional response to a fan favorite couldn't be avoided, but this only worked in the past because Shirou is Shirou and our Chesse helplessness triggered all his buttons. We don't know the limit of Han's magecraft but considering his strudge creating a fake arm when his family specialize in sculptures we can say Primordial Runes taught by the Scatha will be our best weapon. We need to keep in mind his goals and capacity, although rare there is virtualy little magecraft can't do, even Kiritsugo origin bullet can be healed by someone like Archimede's Technique Elucidation. In this age of battles is more readily accessible than one mind expect.
That'd kill half of soul from Quest, though.
Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here as I'm not OP, but I'd like to believe Chiyome got chosen as the Servant for a narrative reason.
From simple things like Saber being someone related to Chiyome one way or another, Medusa being snake-related too and even maybe armored guy if it turns out to be Odysseus with his and Chiyome's roles during LB5-1 there's some themes, parallels and pottery going on already.
It's like if Medb had gotten killed half-way into the previous Quest. Could we have continued? Duh. But it would have been kinda, you know...
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This is unrelated to that but perhaps one of the issues now is that people wanna do something, feel like they're doing something and influencing things, the story and narrative, and the Assassin Class is simply not suited for such a narrative. There's hardly much excitement going by when we're limited to sneak around and spy and listen in and find information and kill people and Masters while being sneaky snek. Direct confrontation? Nearly unthinkable.
It's pragmatic, it's what works, it's what the Class is for. Does it make for an exciting story? Opinions differ here.
- Location
- Somewhere North of south
While I agree that we shouldn't have responded to the provocation and revealed ourselves, I'd say these are arguments that Medusa escalating was a bad call on medusa's part.
I mean what Medusa does know is that we haven't taken obvious opportunities to kill her master and that we were willing to talk.
Attacking such a servant and forcing them into a corner when you don't know whether their NP is anti-unit or anti-army, whether they can attack from multiple angles or the severity of the threat they pose to your master as well as being aware that they could get caught in the crossfire is reckless on Medusa's part.
I believe Medusa took this action because she saw an easy way to remove an enemy servant from the war.
Basically I agree with your point but I think your reasonings inversed.
I see where you're coming from but I was shitting bricks once we got locked inside the room, hiding knowing we can't directly fight our opponents on even grounds with the fear that one wrong decision could cause crippling damage to our ability to win is where excitement from this quest should come from. Think more survival horror.
In terms of playing without Chiyome and trying to win the war, this gets cranked up to eleven, as hopefully people are invested in Hans from his appearance in the last quest (I know I am). Without a servant, we'd have to be even more sneaky and cunning.
Yes, Chiyome is important to the character of the story and will allow interesting tale of intrigue, revenge, loyalty, betrayal etc (IDK anything about Chiyome since I only started FGO a month ago) but it just means the genre would shift more into survival horror with Hans trying to outsmart virtually unstoppable heroic spirits.
- Location
- West Michigan
[x] Wait for your Employees, hold Assassin's hand in the meantime.
AnonymousRabbit
Rabbit Faced
5 minutes. Also all of you people cool it.
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AnonymousRabbit
Rabbit Faced
Votes closed