We do need more updates if we want OaF in time though, so either the reform stuff or the Wall would be helpful there. I agree that the Crown is too much though, which means Be the Change is out unless people somehow decide to take it without Crown.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
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DkArthas
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With intervention on the other hand, we can reach 15 arete this update. Walls of Myth in addition to that would likely be enough for Once and Future with some discipline before we even face the Tyrant. That's basically our victory condition against both Ber and The Tyrant. In the aftermath, we would be free to chase any shiny we want, Tyrant and Ber both will probably give some pretty good advancements, Rank and artifacts! If the Tyrant is the practitioner of the local magic, we would be able to get access to that!
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Hmm. Will we get an option to absorb the Opalescent Tower into Evening Sky? That counts as destroying it, right?
A big assumption to make, since not only we might not find the maximum amount opportunities, we can also start getting less Rank the more Rank we have. Not to mention that 3-pick maximum Rank opportunity would assuredly be quite risky.
No, it's not. With several updates spent here, we will recoup most of the cost even at 3 Arete per update - and it's not written in stone that we will get just so much. We generated almost 8 Arete per update for two updates before this one, after all, and we don't need that much to have enough for OaF.
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Probably. I suspect that would be difficult/expensive/dangerous though. Probably all three.
Anyway I think we'll get offered Crown any time we try to remake a broken system ruled by corrupt elites. It fits the story and Hunger's history. So the feat is going to show up again. A lot, as we actually try to complete the geas task.
So I would rather just keep going to OaF now. We're basically halfway there by now.
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I'll point out if you don't want to get Crown here because you'd rather save for OaF, you're probably better off going for Change and Tower rather then Intervention and Wall, since the latter might end up throwing some magic system or artifact that people desperately want to grab at and putting you in this same position again before getting OaF, where as that happening during the Elixer reformation seems somewhat less likely.
DkArthas
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The 3-pick opportunities are assuredly less risky than delaying Once and Future just as we are about to enter into an Temple-esque situation and fight goddamned Ber soon enough who requires Once and Future to defeat. 0.5 is nothing unique, that's WOG. We will almost certainly have more chances for Ranks later and we can get them with far less risk compared to this situation.
And, no I bet we are not going to be spending "several" updates here in the Elixer Sovereignty, I expect it to be no more than 3 updates. And relying on omake storms is...just ugh.
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I mean, WDS+Crown is 0.7 Rank for general purpose, which would put our Blood Casting at 9.3. We have ways to compensate for this even if shit goes south and we somehow don't get OfA in time, which i find entirely unlikely. Danger of Crown is getting blown hilariously out of the proportion..
On the other hand, with Crown, OfA and rewards from this mission we will be at Rank 10+ Blood Casting. And, of course:
On the other hand, with Crown, OfA and rewards from this mission we will be at Rank 10+ Blood Casting. And, of course:
Don't forget, you are here forever.
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
[Once And Future] I - 25 Arete. Channel a fraction of the Forebear's true might, and glimpse a small fraction of his true history. +1 Astral Rank, applied externally after all other factors. Does not raise the difficulty of improving Rank. +2 Astral Rank in matters military.
Just to remind everyone what a badass advancement OaF is. We overwhelm enemies that are normally peer-level opponents. We can take Crown later, when we inevitably free some other nation from oppression, and lift it up into democracy and freedom. Frankly, I don't think saving up for OaF after taking Crown is realistic, given all the shinies and inevitable risks we will be taking in the Tower. Arete mining is tiring, and often stressful.
Just to remind everyone what a badass advancement OaF is. We overwhelm enemies that are normally peer-level opponents. We can take Crown later, when we inevitably free some other nation from oppression, and lift it up into democracy and freedom. Frankly, I don't think saving up for OaF after taking Crown is realistic, given all the shinies and inevitable risks we will be taking in the Tower. Arete mining is tiring, and often stressful.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
We have only managed to get a few things before because of Rihaku being nice and giving us more time. Please stop relying on that. Eventually he'll decide it's funny to be mean.
DkArthas
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I mean even ADS right now isn't enough for Ber without threefold. I highly doubt 0.7 Rank will be enough to face him.
I'm not relying on Rihaku's mercy, but on general questing trends. Realistically, getting OfA after Crown is absolutely not an issue; real issue is not spending on next shiny.
But that's fine. This is eminently doable, and working to fulfill Hunger's explicit desire is more than worth the effort. Hunger is a good boy, and I enjoy making him happy.
Remember that Rank 5.7+CP+OaF would be enough to utterly crush him. That's same amount of Blood Casting/Defensive Rank we'd get with WDS+Crown. We wouldn't get combat Rank, which would remain at 7.3, but it should be more than enough give that we have Quickening, Thorn and so on.
Like, it's not that I want to get World Defeating Stance, but even if we accept the arguments that we won't get OfA in time and that Tyrant and Ber will both magically teleport on our ass moment we look in Tower's direction and that we won't have any other power up in the meanwhile and so on, we still have an out.
As I've said, this entire "if we pick Crown we are DOOMED, DOOMED I SAY" is just incorrect.
DkArthas
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I think you are seriously understimating Ber if you believe an additional 0.7 rank will be enough. The power an additional 1 combat rank brings is absolutely overwhelming. But I don't think we have any way to convince each other without Rihaku so whatever.
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I mean, it's same thing that would completely crush Ber, except -1 combat Rank and +Quickness, Thorn and so on. Majority of Ber crushing was due to overwhelming Blood Casting, which we would have either way.
DkArthas
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Where did Rihaku say the majority of Ber crushing was due to Bloodcasting? And I mean 1 combat rank is an absolutely massive difference considering how rank works the higher you go. 8.3+ combat rank brings us into what is considered High Rank...
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Also, just to make sure that we are on same page, it's 0.9 Rank. Remember that HDS +0.2 doesn't stack with OaF.
This is not to say that Crown/WDS is as good as OaF. It doesn't need to be, it's just perfectly viable fall back in unlikely case that we don't get OaF in time.
So, do it for him.
I don't think Rihaku really specified this anywhere, but higher you go in Rank the greater the difference is. Getting 0.1 in Rank 9 beats that +1 in 8 pretty handily. Plus, again, you have Quickening, Thorn and so on, which were also not in initial power specification. And unlike +1 combat, Quickening works perfectly fine with Blood/Defense Rank.
This is not to say that Crown/WDS is as good as OaF. It doesn't need to be, it's just perfectly viable fall back in unlikely case that we don't get OaF in time.
So, do it for him.
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
To be clear, I might be missing the wider context of this message which also contains stuff on 8.3 military rank being good. But regardless, 9.3 is pretty bonkers
edit: yep, missed the message he sent above including the military rank--
changing vote back to stranglethorn
[X] Be the Change
[X] The Tower Itself
[X] Towards Stranglethorn
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DkArthas
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Huh, So WDS + Crown will actually be enough to defeat Ber comfortably. 6.375 + 0.2 (HDS) + 0.2 (WDS) + 0.5 (Crown) + 2 (Crimson flare)= 9.275
[] Be the Change
[] The Walls of Myth
[] Feat: Crown
edit; Talace potentially misunderstood.
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@Wolfy has good arguments that Crown + WDS would reliably make us crush Ber. Also WDS builds into ADS so I don't think we are wasting Arete.
But the most important thing is to do it for the Arete - don't let it fall into the lair of that evil император пять and his gang of
EDIT: Also we comitted to a Rank build(rip threefold) so stick to the plan
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You are willing to change your mind due to good arguments, respect for that
DkArthas
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As for those who think WDS and Crown will be enough against Ber, that's wrong. Rihaku pretty much said we need OaF.
[x] Laissez-faire
The government seems to be an aristocracy of some sort, as might be expected from an Empire splinter group. Hunger doesn't like that on a philosophical level but on a practical level is this particular setup worth his time and effort? They don't seem to be running the place into the ground or perpetrating any great evils. The worst we've seen them do is draft military age supers in the face of an existential threat and well, duh! So would any government.
[ ] Intervention Mk. I
If it's going to be an aristocracy, might as well have our pet aristocrats in charge. Costs a little time, helps with future resource extraction, doesn't make anyone's life better but ours.
[ ] Be the Change
Hunger can browbeat anyone into agreeing with him. That is not enough. His other social and mental stats are merely high (but penalised) and he has no real knowledge or experience of governance let alone setting up new structures. Guy went from high school to guerrilla heroism to Cursebearing. Gisena the genius is a quasi-medieval mage-noble - she can add a lot of basic political savvy but these aren't her ideals.
In the end it doesn't matter how good they are, reform is not a 4 day mega-effort, it's an ongoing commitment. People have to live the new ways for an extended period for it to become a culture.
No doubt he can impose some changes but what he'd make is just a new oligarchy with some reform trappings. I'd expect it to become more corrupt than what there currently is in short order because the social expectations that bound the old rulers are disrupted while the inspiration and oversight of the new rulers fucked off after a few days.
Defining Advancement: Slapdash Fake Reformer
[x] The Walls of Myth
*Magics, artifice, ancient lore - who knows what awaits buried within the Walls of Myth?
Says it all.
[ ] The Tower Itself
Leave the sovereignty promptly, no need to take extra risks rushing.
[x] Towards Stranglethorn
[ ] Honing (2 Arete)
I thought Honing was a 1 pick?
[ ] The Ring of Power - Pitiless Maw (7 Arete)
We heal fast as it is and the Ruin bonus is limited to melee. Better to SAVE
[ ] Feat: Crown (12 Arete)
We plan to conquer the Human Sphere. Reforming societies is something we will do in the future and take the time to do it properly. It will still be hard then, irrespective of our combat power, and affect even more people so it should still offer very good for our level Rank.
The government seems to be an aristocracy of some sort, as might be expected from an Empire splinter group. Hunger doesn't like that on a philosophical level but on a practical level is this particular setup worth his time and effort? They don't seem to be running the place into the ground or perpetrating any great evils. The worst we've seen them do is draft military age supers in the face of an existential threat and well, duh! So would any government.
[ ] Intervention Mk. I
If it's going to be an aristocracy, might as well have our pet aristocrats in charge. Costs a little time, helps with future resource extraction, doesn't make anyone's life better but ours.
[ ] Be the Change
Hunger can browbeat anyone into agreeing with him. That is not enough. His other social and mental stats are merely high (but penalised) and he has no real knowledge or experience of governance let alone setting up new structures. Guy went from high school to guerrilla heroism to Cursebearing. Gisena the genius is a quasi-medieval mage-noble - she can add a lot of basic political savvy but these aren't her ideals.
In the end it doesn't matter how good they are, reform is not a 4 day mega-effort, it's an ongoing commitment. People have to live the new ways for an extended period for it to become a culture.
No doubt he can impose some changes but what he'd make is just a new oligarchy with some reform trappings. I'd expect it to become more corrupt than what there currently is in short order because the social expectations that bound the old rulers are disrupted while the inspiration and oversight of the new rulers fucked off after a few days.
Defining Advancement: Slapdash Fake Reformer
[x] The Walls of Myth
*Magics, artifice, ancient lore - who knows what awaits buried within the Walls of Myth?
Says it all.
[ ] The Tower Itself
Leave the sovereignty promptly, no need to take extra risks rushing.
[x] Towards Stranglethorn
[ ] Honing (2 Arete)
I thought Honing was a 1 pick?
[ ] The Ring of Power - Pitiless Maw (7 Arete)
We heal fast as it is and the Ruin bonus is limited to melee. Better to SAVE
[ ] Feat: Crown (12 Arete)
We plan to conquer the Human Sphere. Reforming societies is something we will do in the future and take the time to do it properly. It will still be hard then, irrespective of our combat power, and affect even more people so it should still offer very good for our level Rank.
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