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Tales of History - A Civ-Builder Quest

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Mortenkam said:
Like the point of my idea is to treat them as if they are the will of the Ancestors, as in the Ancestors are using them to punish us. This is to get around the idea of them being our lesser, at least for now. Also, they might offer terms less severe than fighting them off, so it might be worth to hear them out first.
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We can't, It literally impossible because of the Mandate. We cannot approach anyone without arrogance, and since we are EXPLICITLY coming into from weakness it won't happen.

We are literally in the worst possible situation i can think of.
 
Ghostdevil said:
If we charge out, we die faster, hiding behind the walls is our ONLY chance coming out of this.
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No. Let's think about this calmly.

There is a river that they have to cross to even step foot into the valley. They have somewhere between 9-10 pops, most of them not fanatics. We know that we can field Fanatic Mobs when defending the White Halls. We know that Fanatic Mobs are dangerous-- so dangerous, in fact, that they're kinda like the wrecking balls of the lowlands. Remember that time we nearly got killed dead by fanatic units at Riverbend? If we're fielding two Regular hunters and twelve Fanatic Mobs against 9-11 enemy units, that's not bad odds, especially when you consider the river crossing bonus. We've got an elite army, so our commander is going to be somewhere between veteran and elite in quality.

Also, we're only beginning to experience hunger. We're not facing morale penalties. We've not sat on our butts and watched the Makarites burn down our Orchards and desecrate our most holy sites. And every pop we lose in battle is a pop we don't have to feed. Because of the pop gains of the last few turns, we still have a cushion.

I say we make a fight of it. It's the only strategy that offers us a real chance at victory.
 
Satar said:
No. Let's think about this calmly.

There is a river that they have to cross to even step foot into the valley. They have somewhere between 9-10 pops, most of them not fanatics. We know that we can field Fanatic Mobs when defending the White Halls. We know that Fanatic Mobs are dangerous-- so dangerous, in fact, that they're kinda like the wrecking balls of the lowlands. Remember that time we nearly got killed dead by fanatic units at Riverbend? If we're fielding two Regular hunters and twelve Fanatic Mobs against 9-11 enemy units, that's not bad odds, especially when you consider the river crossing bonus. We've got an elite army, so our commander is going to be somewhere between veteran and elite in quality.

Also, we're only beginning to experience hunger. We're not facing morale penalties. We've not sat on our butts and watched the Makarites burn down our Orchards and desecrate our most holy sites. And every pop we lose in battle is a pop we don't have to feed. Because of the pop gains of the last few turns, we still have a cushion.

I say we make a fight of it. It's the only strategy that offers us a real chance at victory.
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They were not ACTUAL mobs tho, they were berserker elite units apparently to the point that we only beat them because of excellent rolls that Azel was surprised
We cannot beat them out of the walls, even if your strategy worked perfectly, we'd be outnumbered significantly.
We don't even HAVE fanatic units unless were fighting AT the white halls, but were not.
 
And make no mistake, the burning of the Orchards is a game-over for us. In a battle we stand to lose a few pops. After our Orchards are burnt, we stand to lose half our entire population to starvation. And they'll burn the longhouses too; when winter comes, we'll be buried under the snows.

Ghostdevil said:
They were not ACTUAL mobs tho, they were berserker elite units apparently to the point that we only beat them because of excellent rolls that Azel was surprised
We cannot beat them out of the walls, even if your strategy worked perfectly, we'd be outnumbered significantly.
We don't even HAVE fanatic units unless were fighting AT the white halls, but were not.
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Fighting at the river bend IS fighting at the White Halls. Our people aren't stupid. They know that before them is the enemy and behind them are the undefended White Halls. That IS defending the White Halls.
 
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Ghostdevil said:
We can't, It literally impossible because of the Mandate. We cannot approach anyone without arrogance, and since we are EXPLICITLY coming into from weakness it won't happen.
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Well, I am unsure how much leeway that @Azel would give us, but it is classical Old Testament to explain, why a chosen people losses to heathen enemies to say that is because of sin/disobedience.
 
Satar said:
And make no mistake, the burning of the Orchards is a game-over for us. In a battle we stand to lose a few pops. After our Orchards are burnt, we stand to lose half our entire population to starvation. And they'll burn the longhouses too; when winter comes, we'll be buried under the snows.
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Losing our last two military units is a game over to. Hiding behind walls is our only real chance.

Mortenkam said:
Well, I am unsure how much leeway that @Azul would give us, but it is classical Old Testament to explain, why a chosen people losses to heathen enemies to say that is because of sin/disobedience.
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We don't have such a thing though, sin isn't really a thing. The Mandate shows that we cannot diplo our way out of this .
 
Azel said:
Note: As the government of Greenvalley is deadlocked, there is a chance that orders are not carried out properly. This is determined by checks against the current Stability score.
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Remember the remainder of the council are disunited except in regard to Willow, who they are both hostile to. I'm not sure a vote to depend on him coming to save the day will be carried out.
 
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Ghostdevil said:
Losing our last two military units is a game over to. Hiding behind walls is our only real chance.
We don't have such a thing though, sin isn't really a thing. The Mandate shows that we cannot diplo our way out of this .
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No, it isn't. We could have 0 hunter units and still feed ourselves just fine, because we've got fishers, herders, serfs, etc., and these days they produce more food than the hunters. We could also protect ourselves by spawning mob units from our regular pops. Losing all our hunters is a setback. Losing the White Halls, Orchards, and our longhouses is a death sentence.
 
nat_401 said:
Remember the remainder of the council are disunited except in disregard to Willow, who they are both hostile to, I'm not sure a vote to depend on him coming to save the day will be carried out.
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Its either he comes back and saves the day or the White Clans do. Otherwise we lose. We cannot attack since we are at a SEVERE disadvantage. We cannot defend because they can burn our orchards and then we just die to famine.

Satar said:
No, it isn't. We could have 0 hunter units and still feed ourselves just fine, because we've got fishers, herders, serfs, etc., and these days they produce more food than the hunters. We could also protect ourselves by spawning mob units from our regular pops. Losing all our hunters is a setback. Losing the White Halls, Orchards, and our longhouses is a death sentence.
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YES IT IS. If we lose our military units they can STILL burn our orchards and the Whitehalls
They can literally lose half their forces and STILL outnumber us.
 
Ghostdevil said:
Their units are significantly better than ours by far.
Our Mobs are not fanatic right now.
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They're going to be defending the White Halls in this battle. I trust (@Azel) that our people aren't so goddamn thick that they need to be at the physical location of the White Halls to understand that if the enemy makes it past, they'll ransack the White Halls and put every Bone Tender to the sword.
 
Ghostdevil said:
We don't have such a thing though, sin isn't really a thing. The Mandate shows that we cannot diplo our way out of this .
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Azel said:
[] Try to negotiate with the oncoming army. (Might cause conflict with Cultural Ideas)
-[] Write-In terms to offer them.
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Azel said:
At the dawn of time, the people were lost and separated. But in these trying times emerged three great persons that led them together again to build a brighter future. Like the Mountain Father, the Black Bear and the White Wolf, the Council of Three rules to this day, the wisdom of the ancestors guiding them on their path. No higher authority can there be in this world.
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The mandate does not prevent us from trying, it is just going to make it a lot harder. Also, I will admit that I am not sure how good it would fit our religion, but the hunters raids can be called disobedience of the Ancestors, since the will of the Council of Three is the Will of the Ancestors, since they have the Mandate of the Ancestors and the hunters raids are a disobedience to the Council of Three. Though @Azel, how much sense am I making?
 
Satar said:
They're going to be defending the White Halls in this battle. I trust (@Azel) that our people aren't so goddamn thick that they need to be at the physical location of the White Halls to understand that if the enemy makes it past, they'll ransack the White Halls and put every Bone Tender to the sword.
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The Estimate does not put them at Fanatic, so assuming they will be and attacking based on that will put us in a death sentence in of itself. We have to cautious, being aggressive is what got us into this.

Mortenkam said:
The mandate does not prevent us from trying, it is just going to make it a lot harder. Also, I will admit that I am not sure how good it would fit our religion, but the hunters raids can be called disobedience of the Ancestors, since the will of the Council of Three is the Will of the Ancestors, since they have the Mandate of the Ancestors and the hunters raids are a disobedience to the Council of Three. Though @Azel, how much sense am I making?
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We STILL have nothing we can give them. DIplomacy from a position of weakness will likely make our political situation 100x worse, were already on the brink of internal strife
 
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Mortenkam said:
The mandate does not prevent us from trying, it is just going to make it a lot harder. Also, I will admit that I am not sure how good it would fit our religion, but the hunters raids can be called disobedience of the Ancestors, since the will of the Council of Three is the Will of the Ancestors, since they have the Mandate of the Ancestors and the hunters raids are a disobedience to the Council of Three. Though @Azel, how much sense am I making?
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If spun the right way, we could potentially shame the entire council for being petty, which is what caused the issue. That could force a certain level of cooperativeness among future members, assuming the rolls work out
 
Mortenkam said:
The mandate does not prevent us from trying, it is just going to make it a lot harder. Also, I will admit that I am not sure how good it would fit our religion, but the hunters raids can be called disobedience of the Ancestors, since the will of the Council of Three is the Will of the Ancestors, since they have the Mandate of the Ancestors and the hunters raids are a disobedience to the Council of Three. Though @Azel, how much sense am I making?
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If you can get both Tall Reed and Fingers to speak with one voice, that explanation would work. Willow did defy the majority of the Council after all.
Satar said:
They're going to be defending the White Halls in this battle. I trust (@Azel) that our people aren't so goddamn thick that they need to be at the physical location of the White Halls to understand that if the enemy makes it past, they'll ransack the White Halls and put every Bone Tender to the sword.
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Fanatic Mobs are a thing that happens when you are with your back to the wall, but forward defending yourself at the border is not that situation.

Right now, you would have to convince the people that the hunters can't beat the enemy, that the enemy will ransack the White Halls and that your plan is the only way to avoid that. The cultural ideas of the Valley People don't exactly encourage berserking mobs like the Makar did, so you will need some leadership or a properly dire situation and while an attack on the village is bad, people are unconvinced that it's the end of the world.
 
Wait,
Why ARE they attacking us?
If our guys were fucking around in the eastern mountains, chasing after nomads, their REALLY not doing much of anything least of all doing damage.
Unless this is just the nomads swinging around after evading our raiders
 
Ghostdevil said:
Wait,
Why ARE they attacking us?
If our guys were fucking around in the eastern mountains, chasing after nomads, their REALLY not doing much of anything least of all doing damage.
Unless this is just the nomads swinging around after evading our raiders
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Seems like a good idea to just rush down an aggro civ instead of letting fester and become makar 2.0
 
Azel said:
Right now, you would have to convince the people that the hunters can't beat the enemy, that the enemy will ransack the White Halls and that your plan is the only way to avoid that. The cultural ideas of the Valley People don't exactly encourage berserking mobs like the Makar did, so you will need some leadership or a properly dire situation and while an attack on the village is bad, people are unconvinced that it's the end of the world.
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There is a distance of some meters between the place where we are planning to fight the battle and the White Halls. Come on, @Azel, this is a bit much. More than half our military might is off chasing goats. How on earth do our people think it's not the end of the world? How? Do they not see the giant army at our doorsteps? Do they not understand that we have only two hunter pops at home?
 
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Ghostdevil said:
We STILL have nothing we can give them. DIplomacy from a position of weakness will likely make our political situation 100x worse, were already on the brink of internal strife
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I guess we might could do emergency looting, but I get your point about us having minimal to offer, perhaps our one point of production?

They could of course also attempt to offer terms first, when they see us hiding behind our wall.

I think that you might be mistaken, when it comes to our internal situation though, since our last two leaders and their factions both wants peace with the Lowlanders and the hunters faction is mostly away right now and without leadership, so they might be more willing to consider it.

Azel said:
If you can get both Tall Reed and Fingers to speak with one voice, that explanation would work. Willow did defy the majority of the Council after all.
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Thanks, though if we try to do this, we should remember to try to avoid offering terms that might truly offended either of the two others. Also, full disclosure, when Willow and his hunters return, this might backfire and create a civil war.
 
Notcreative said:
Seems like a good idea to just rush down an aggro civ instead of letting fester and become makar 2.0
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Thats the thing, if our guys went east, Brushcrest and co wouldn't have reason to really attack us unless this was an attack they were going to do ANYWAYS, and the only thing that changed is that we marched our army away
Mortenkam said:
I guess we might could do emergency looting, but I get your point about us having minimal to offer, perhaps our one point of production?
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There is NO way our people would accept this, this is just elaborate suicide. Unless we roll REALLY well.
 
So, question, how many troops is this coalition expected to have (I doubt it, but it, but if we are very lucky this is their whole army, and this would be a do or die moment, where if we win here the lowlands are open for conquest)

Even in the worst case scenario they should be a few days march from us, a single runner or hunter can move much faster than a stone age army, these are mountains, and we know this terrain. We should probably start trying to make them miserable in their march, a mix of traps and harassing strikes as they march, if they try to cross a river also harass them, we will slow them down, demoralize them, and kill some of them all at the same time.

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding our terrain we should be able to do this, right? They shouldn't be able to reach us at any swift speed with a huge army, so, yeah. Also yes, it doesn't matter if we can live behind our walls if they burn our orchards, similar things happened in Greek city states, this is exactly how you forced a confrontation.

Either way, let's be calm here, no decisive battles yet, we should have another update before that, for now it's harassment and traps before any confrontation
 
If we fight them as they're crossing the river, we'll get a bonus associated with that. If we let them cross unchallenged, we lose one of our biggest equalizers.
 
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